Countering blue flag abuse?

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Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby dentin » Fri May 30, 2014 8:09 pm

In 2013, our small camp of 6+ people got in at around 6:30 pm sunday and started setting up on our planned location near 7:00 and I. There were flags planted (I believe they were red, but they may have been blue), but we didn't notice until we got fairly far along with setup. When we found them, we figured they were markers showing where the roads were, because the entire block (and nearby blocks) seemed to be flagged. We continued setting up. Over the next few hours, a handful of other small camps set up near us.

About four hours after we started setting up, we were approached by a guy walking around with a flashlight. He told us that he had reserved the space we were in using the flags ("didn't you see the flags?") He then told us that the company he works for had a lot of RV's coming in, and asked us if we could find a different space. Our veteran burner decided this was unacceptable, and we decided to stay. We also informed the neighboring camps, none of which elected to move either.

Over the next few days, quite a few RV's did arrive, but it was at least mid-week before all the space on that block was claimed. Had everyone honored the reservation, the block would have been largely empty for most if not all of the week.

I'm camp lead this year without veteran support and I'd like to have a better handle on what to do in this sort of situation. Calling a ranger every time you suspect someone is abusing theme camp flags seems like a bad solution, and meanwhile you can't set up your camp.

So, what is the normal policy for handling this? How do we deal with, or handle people who aggressively mark off territory when they won't even start to fill it until wednesday? How do we know if a blue flagged area is a legitimate theme camp, or if it's just some jerk from an RV company trying to get premium space for his paying clients?

Thanks in advance.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby FIGJAM » Fri May 30, 2014 8:26 pm

Theme camps will be marked on the map you get at greeters.

After gates are open, it's first come first served.

That being said, if there is someone already there and they claimed some space for fellow campers, be neighborly and use some discretion. 8)
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby Jackass » Fri May 30, 2014 8:28 pm

If they don't have placement, then you did good... I'm making some popcorn for this one!
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby trilobyte » Fri May 30, 2014 8:34 pm

The correct solution is to call for either a ranger or (better yet) a member of the placement team to mediate. Placed camps are discouraged from either reserving space outside their camp's placement or from reserving/landgrabbing space either before or after the gates open. Parking lot camps are particularly frowned upon, and camps found doing any or all those things could potentially be jeopardizing their future placement (as well as participation in directed ticket sales).
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby FIGJAM » Fri May 30, 2014 8:52 pm

Would there even be a placed camp at 7&I? :?
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby Eric » Fri May 30, 2014 9:27 pm

FIGJAM wrote:Would there even be a placed camp at 7&I? :?


Yep. Last year the theme-camp areas stair-stepped back to "K" on 3:00, 4:30, 6:00, 7:30 & 9:00. I think they're trying to pull the camps back further into the city to pull some of the energy away from Esplanade (there is more to BRC than the center of the city). I know they made G wider, and were trying it out as a "boulevard" type street.

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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby Jackass » Fri May 30, 2014 9:32 pm

No, probably not. They probably felt as if they were placed. There's at least one eplayan I know on here that'll sympathize with you, as he faced similar woes this past burn...and he's still sore about it.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby FIGJAM » Fri May 30, 2014 9:45 pm

Still nothing at 7&I though.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby trilobyte » Fri May 30, 2014 9:58 pm

That map is a general guide, not carved in stone. While it sounds like the OP is describing some jerks who dialed up a parking lot camp, it is possible for a camp to be placed outside the designated theme camp space. Department/team camps, an art or vehicle support camp, and probably a couple other use cases... still, what was posted doesn't sound like any of those things. If they're claiming to have placed space, placement should generally be involved in the mediation (even if it's just the ranger getting a placer on the radio).
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby dentin » Fri May 30, 2014 10:39 pm

Thanks for the note about the theme camp map. I know we had various maps last year, but I wasn't sure how current those were. I'll know to look on them, and while I hate to waste ranger/placer time, call them if necessary.

I understand people having legitimate reserved space, and I'd be happy to work around/with other camps - that's what it's all about. I'd also happily move for an actual theme camp. The issue was that there was a very, very large area flagged, with nobody there, and the guy who talked to us told us that he wanted the space for an RV parking lot for his company.

I guess what really gets me is the brazen attempt to claim space for what amounts to corporate use. The guy who talked to us admitted that he was being paid to be there, and to being paid to mark it and hold it until the RV's arrived. (The didn't start actually arriving until ~tuesday.) It seems like a violation of the core principles in some way.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby Eric » Fri May 30, 2014 11:02 pm

FIGJAM wrote:Still nothing at 7&I though.


*doh* - I keep reading 7:30 for some reason.
I don't think the OP was in the wrong at all, and holding space for 3 days definitely is outside of the "no reserved spaces" once Gate opens rules. I understand holding space for a tent or two, but not for an army.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby BBadger » Sat May 31, 2014 1:13 am

Blue flags? If they're not at least going to through the effort of using vehicles and tents to claim their "row in the movie theater," their blue flags and and ropes are as good as MOOP. Still, yeah, I'd get a ranger on scene to mediate the issue.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby EspressoDude » Sat May 31, 2014 7:16 am

I believe that the folks that survey and layout the city use blue flags to mark the streets, and that also coincides with camps in some places.
As an example, the village Black Rock Power Co-op had a full block and lots of blue flags along the streets. Placement did not care how the village was divided up for the individual camps. They do care how wide the streets are for Emergency Services.

Since the letter streets are curved, looking corner to corner does not result in the edge of the street, so the curve needs to be flagged in several places along a block.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby unjonharley » Sat May 31, 2014 7:47 am

I would like to hear from placement and or lay out how the flag system works..

Good thread for all eplay'en to read..
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby Just_Joe » Sat May 31, 2014 9:40 am

EspressoDude wrote:Since the letter streets are curved, looking corner to corner does not result in the edge of the street, so the curve needs to be flagged in several places along a block.

Last year on our block there were short wood stakes every 7.5 minutes that reflected the curve
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat May 31, 2014 9:42 am

The worst think about blue flag abuse is how hairy it makes your palms.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby unjonharley » Sat May 31, 2014 10:05 am

theCryptofishist wrote:The worst think about blue flag abuse is how hairy it makes your palms.

and you know this :?: :?:
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby digital » Sat May 31, 2014 10:37 am

It's my understanding the flag system is only in effect until gate opens. That is, EA placed camp members more or less stake their claim before the general public. Those of us arriving the week prior are pretty good about spacing our camps within the designated placement areas.

But, IIRC, once gate opens it's a land grab for everyone. There is no holding space for a parking lot 3 days from now. If they want the land then they better grab it.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby AntiM » Sat May 31, 2014 10:54 am

There are both red and blue flags. One for streets, one for placed camps. I can't recall which is which. I have a handful of old faded ones stuck in the top of my Valet Parking sign.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby maladroit » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:08 pm

Land battles will take place on any scale, any day of the week. We set up our camp early arrival and had things situated pretty well. My trailer was parked partly behind the hexayurt, hitched to my Jeep. On Tuesday morning I unhitched and drove down to Reno to pick up my girlfriend. Came back around noon and found my trailer had been dragged partly into the street, and my neighbors informed me that someone was walking back to get their RV and shoehorn it between their camp and the wall of my hexayurt (no more than 10-12 feet). I set things back up the way they were, the RV arrived, and was encouraged to move right along.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby Jackass » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:43 pm

maladroit wrote:. Came back around noon and found my trailer had been dragged partly into the street, and my neighbors informed me that someone was walking back to get their RV and shoehorn it between their camp and the wall of my hexayurt (no more than 10-12 feet). I set things back up the way they were, the RV arrived, and was encouraged to move right along.


That's some pretty bold shit right there! Did he think whoever owned the trailer, would just lay down for an RV? With some folks, a stunt like that would most certainly end in fisticuffs. At the very least a severe verbal lashing, starting with," WTF are u thinking?..."
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby unjonharley » Mon Jun 02, 2014 12:52 pm

Will bar and chair the trailer this year... This is the first year the trailer is being unhook and parked..
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby Elliot » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:00 pm

Jackass wrote:... ... At the very least a severe verbal lashing, starting with," WTF are u thinking?..."

Or... "I say, kind Sir... might I inquire as to your rationale...."
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby AntiM » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:04 pm

And this is why we need rangers. But seriously, WTF, indeed.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Jun 02, 2014 1:41 pm

Rangers?

aka fashists?

In an event dedecated to peace and love and alternate community?

I don't think so.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby trilobyte » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:02 pm

Wow, maladroit, that sounds crazy - I don't think I've ever heard of such a bold and jerky move.

It's probably worth noting that when it comes to camping solo, it would be wise to connect with the neighbors where you can. Especially if you're going to be leaving for a big chunk of the day to go get someone from the airport. It does require investing a bit more in personal relationships, but aside from saying hello and making a friend or three, you can possibly enlist their help in watching your back. Who knows - it might even be possible that they can move one of their vehicles into the void while you're away.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby maladroit » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:28 pm

trilobyte wrote:Wow, maladroit, that sounds crazy - I don't think I've ever heard of such a bold and jerky move.

It's probably worth noting that when it comes to camping solo, it would be wise to connect with the neighbors where you can. Especially if you're going to be leaving for a big chunk of the day to go get someone from the airport. It does require investing a bit more in personal relationships, but aside from saying hello and making a friend or three, you can possibly enlist their help in watching your back. Who knows - it might even be possible that they can move one of their vehicles into the void while you're away.


I was actually part of a 30-person camp, but this was all happening on a Tuesday...didn't even think of waking up someone to watch the space, because my trailer was there and I figured that was enough to mark the turf as used. By the time the RV shenanigans were afoot, our camp was mostly unpopulated and I was at the very edge. The neighbors were cool but not really willing to physically stop someone from moving part of my camp. It was a sort of bold and cheerful ninja move anyway, someone appears, claims that the RV has to go there and it was set up in advance, starts dragging the trailer out of the way, and skips off before a word can be said. If I'd arrived 15 minutes later they'd probably be sipping a congratulatory beer and cranking out the awning.

The problem was that the space WAS clearly marked and used, only that there was just enough space left for a trailer and a tow vehicle, or one RV. It didn't enter my mind that someone would drag someone else's trailer into the street in order to make room for their own setup.
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Jun 02, 2014 2:48 pm

maladroit wrote:It didn't enter my mind that someone would drag someone else's trailer into the street in order to make room for their own setup.

Funny how we don't anticipate the actions soaked in chutzpah...
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby FossaFerox » Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:00 am

Wow maladroit, you're making me appreciate my camp's bunker setup, and making me think of how best to tighten our perimeter. D:
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Re: Countering blue flag abuse?

Postby aserendipity » Tue Jun 03, 2014 1:59 am

the person who has each year in the night, continued to simply back in his rig and run over chairs and cots (used as place holders ) is likely to continue .
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