Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it?

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Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it?

Postby alt12 » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:46 pm

So after many years on the playa and trashing at least 6 cheap ass tents, I've finally broken down and gotten a nice Kodiak canvas tent. I got the 10x14 (6'6 high) Flexbow for $450. Pretty psyched to give it a spin out there but am wondering whether I will still need a shade structure over it to have any comfort sleeping in the morning. I even built one of FIGJAM's 5 gallon bucket swamp cooler and hoping this will help make it cool enough to sleep in the late morning.

My question is this, for those with a Kodiak or Springbar or other canvas tent of similar proportions, do you

a) have no shade over it, if so does it boil up just like a regular tent which in my experience are un-sleepable past like 9am...

b) sling a mesh shade net tarp over it and does this work without a structure to separate the shade from the tent....

c) actually build a shade structure over this behometh tent (i.e. carport) and if so which one? I've been looking at a cheapie $49 coleman shade thats probably going to be too small: http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-200000165 ... ef=lh_ni_t as well as a more expensive coleman eazy-up style shade sturcture that is big still I'm thinking is probably too small to really work: http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-12-Straig ... d_sbs_sg_2

I'm down to the wire here and staying up there for 2 weeks so would like to be able to sleep!


Thoughts? Advice? Wisdom?

Much appreciate,

alt
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby Raymaker » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:01 pm

alt12 wrote:I've been looking at a cheapie $49 coleman shade thats probably going to be too small: http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-200000165 ... ef=lh_ni_t


we have a very cheap tent, so we bought the above, but this is our first time, so no idea yet whether we have done the right thing.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby trilobyte » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:46 pm

Of course you do! The sun doesn't actually care what brand, make, or model of tent you have. It just shines on down, and cooks the bejeezus out of the first thing it hits. If that first thing is the roof of your tent, you can expect the tent to be uncomfortably warm during the day. The purpose of the shade structure is to get between the tent and the sun.

Ideally, you want to have at least 1 foot clearance between the top of your tent (or the tallest tent in your camp), because the roof of your structure will radiate heat downwards and the space allows the breeze to disperse it and keeps any of that heat from making the tent too toasty.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby some seeing eye » Sat Aug 06, 2011 2:20 pm

Canvas is less transparent than nylon tents, even with a rainfly (dustfly?) So a canvas tent will be marginally cooler than nylon. But not enough. I build a tensegrity version of something like this using grommeted shade cloth. No horizontal parts, just rope and a lot of staking down the corner posts.

Image

You are running out of time ordering grommeted shade cloth. But a carport with opaque silver tarp, including the sunrise side is a gret alternative.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby alt12 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:07 am

some seeing eye wrote:Canvas is less transparent than nylon tents, even with a rainfly (dustfly?) So a canvas tent will be marginally cooler than nylon. But not enough. I build a tensegrity version of something like this using grommeted shade cloth. No horizontal parts, just rope and a lot of staking down the corner posts.

Image

You are running out of time ordering grommeted shade cloth. But a carport with opaque silver tarp, including the sunrise side is a gret alternative.



excellent. Thanks the advice. Just curious, what makes shade cloth tarp an improvement over you basic silver nylon or poly tarp? And what percentage shade cloth do you recommend? Stuff seems to still be available for order in-time but obviously is more expensive and just wondering if the trade-off is worth it. I can say that my monkey hut grommeted tarp totally ripped last year so am willing to spend up for a better quality or stronger shade material...
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby Packoderm » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:41 am

I bought a bunch of shade mesh this year. I set up a canopy in my front yard with both shade mesh and a silver tarp. The wind caused the tarp to flap while the mesh remained motionless and silent. I got what I believe is 60% or 70% and put on two layers. Here is a shade canopy that goes over my motorhome. The diagonal piece of shade mesh will likely not be used. I like it all flat.

Image


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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby Sail Man » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:43 pm

I'm gonna vote with the "def put a shade structure over it" crowd.

Don't use poly, noisy and prone to quick death on the playa. If so resigned, at least get the thicker brown/silver type.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby Freedyjay » Sun Aug 07, 2011 2:58 pm

If you still burn in a canvas tent are they worth the high price?

The Kodiak ones look beautiful but are pricey.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby Trishntek » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:11 pm

Yes, they are worth it! I've lost count how many nylon tents I've gone through. The Kodiak is up or down in 15 minutes by myself and is quiet and steady in the wind.

The canvas is heavy and a bit cooler. But you still need to shade it. I've not experienced any condensation with canvas either. Think of where you would camp in a forest,,,, in the meadow? or in the shade of a tree? I would go for the shade!

Shade netting is better for wind performance. If you go with tarp, get 14mil heavy duty silver tarp with grommets 18" apart. That is the real key to making tarp work well. Watch for netting which spaces grommets more than 24" apart. It will be stressed too much if you cannot distribute the load evenly.

And last of all,,, use bungee balls! They are easy to apply and give enough to absorb some of the stress on the fabric and grommets.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby Freedyjay » Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:21 pm

Thanks for the response!

I was actually looking to use shade cloth that's pretty inexpensive from the Home Depot site...
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R ... ogId=10053

And then they have butterfly clips to go with it (to tie a rope through to stake it down?)

If I get the Kodiak there's a bar on top and I would toss the shade cloth over and stake it down.

Which would help, hopefully!
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby pchops » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:48 pm

curious, where did you find a 10x14 kodiak for $450? i bought one recently, the price seemed constant at about $600 and couldn't find anything better than a 20 buck off coupon. i'm giddy to use it, have heard some friends rave about them for a while, not too mention they seem to be a favorite item on eplaya.

same boat, have been looking in stores and online for a structure to go over it, $250 is my limit and the local costco doesn't have any of the one the most recommended. seems like that's the front runner suggestion on all the threads on carports, without any second best option mentioned, preferably one I can buy online in the coming days. any other suggestions.

my back up plan is one of these reflective cloths:http://www.shadeclothstore.com/depts/aluminetshadecloth.html

man, oh man, am i excited. though the build up in itself has been an awesome journey
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby alt12 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:42 pm

pchops wrote:curious, where did you find a 10x14 kodiak for $450? i bought one recently, the price seemed constant at about $600 and couldn't find anything better than a 20 buck off coupon. i'm giddy to use it, have heard some friends rave about them for a while, not too mention they seem to be a favorite item on eplaya.y



Familytentcamping had a great deal running this summer on them. Its still only $479 for the 10x14. They were the only ones that had them in stock and ended-up being the cheapest one too. I had originally ordered on amazon.com, and they were backordered and $100 more expensive to boot. Funny the obviously get a lot of burner orders because I called to make the order versus online and as soon as I said desert camping, the woman on the phone was like "oh you're going to burning man" http://www.familytentcamping.com/site/1406228/page/926237
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby alt12 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:46 pm

Thanks all for the recommendations. In the end, I went with purchasing a EMT kit for a 10 x 10 shade structure and once I get up to Reno will drop in at home depot and have them cut me some 10' EMT tubes and some 7.5' for the legs. Was really cheap and will cover most of the tent. The kit was only $33. and shipping was like $17. Its a basic poly tarp and given the recommendations I might upgrade and spring an extra $40 for some shade cloth.


And for the person is it worth the price, I have no idea as its my first year bringing it out. But I have literally gone through 6 different family-size nylon tents over the years. They just get abused. If you're happy with backcountry camping tent it will work fine. But if you get one of these Coleman monster condomiminum tents, which I love, the poles bend and break, the doors rip, the zippers break, pretty much anything that can go wrong does. I think we trashed 4 large family nylon tents in our camp this year.... So we'll see if the Kodiak does the trick! But if it survives even 2 years, its worth the money!
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby Packoderm » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:52 pm

The EMT conduit already comes in 10 foot sections. You'll only need to cut 4 pieces. I didn't know Home Depot would cut it for you. If they don't, just take one of the EMT cutters out of the package and cut the sections yourself, and then put the cutter back. Make sure your UPC code sticker is on the longer piece you wish to take out of the store with you. Make sure you get rebar and tie down straps to hold the whole thing down. Or you could get rebar and duct tape and tape the legs to the rebar stuck in the ground.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby alt12 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:57 pm

Sorry, one last thing. In case anyone is looking for the kit I got, there are two companies that I found online that sell a design for these aluminum EMT based canopies. They sell you the joing fittings, the tarp, and bungees, you just need to buy the EMT tubes, which are like $4 for 10' at Home Depot and they'll cut them for you.

http://www.creativeshelters.com/ is one of them

I ended up going with Top Canopy because they had flat 10x10 kits whereas creative shelters only has pitched roof kits and larger canopies which require more legs. http://www.topcanopy.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=128 The nice thing about the 10x10 is its just 4 legs at whatever height you want (they don't recommend more than 8' for 3/4" EMT), and 4 x 10' tubes for the roof frame. So you only need 8 total tubes at a cost of $32. I'm pretty psyched to try it out! We use the same EMT-based flat canopies for our camp shade structure and they work great (have 9 of the 16X20s strapped together to create a big ass roof)
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby Packoderm » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:24 pm

16x20x9=2880. That is a heck of a lot of square feet of shade. You'll get vitamin D deprivation in the center of that thing. Does everybody put their tents under that? If so, is it completely awesome?
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby gyre » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:29 am

$600 is not expensive for a good tent.
if you think it is, make one and find out.

Shade cloth that stretches has obvious advantages.
Volume can make it cheap.

Blocking ALL light is paramount though.

It is correct to recommend spacing the shade, but not mandatory.
The most important part of spaced shade is ventilation.
The playa often provides that in abundance.

If you look at nfpa rules for heat shielding of stoves etc, they recommend 3 feet.
I can't recall if that is with or without a single layer heat shield.
Put three layers thin metal and the safe distance is 6 inches.
Quite a contrast.
Thickness matters too.

A tall tent helps just because it's further above you.

For a frame, I like the Shelsys.com stuff.
It's hard for me to carry that much gear though.

Last time, I had a cabin tent.
Put a frame over the center of the tent only, about six inches taller.
Stretched the vinyl over this and the tent frame at the sides and staked it down.
Applied two layers, gapped as well as possible, but no great distances.
Where light was blocked was distinctly cooler.
Sides matter.

Control flapping, bungees, rope, etc.

Noon was very comfortable.
Never contemplated ventilation for the tent itself.

Two weeks is definitely worth the trouble for adding shade, unless you get up early.

How hot is it in your backyard in the sun?

I think a canvas tent will do much better for water cooling out there.
Shade still seems worth it.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby alt12 » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:03 pm

Packoderm wrote:16x20x9=2880. That is a heck of a lot of square feet of shade. You'll get vitamin D deprivation in the center of that thing. Does everybody put their tents under that? If so, is it completely awesome?


God,I wish. No that is for the camp for kitchen, for bar, for lounge space, etc. Thats communal open space. We squeeze them in between two domes so have a nice spot for people to drop by... My dream would be to have another set of those to cover all the tents but the camp is already a huge pain in the ass!
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby misfit » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:48 pm

we just cover our kodiak with Aluminet . works great......
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby Freedyjay » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:40 pm

we just cover our kodiak with Aluminet . works great......


Do you put space between the top of the tent and the Aluminet/shade cloth? I'd much rather splurge on a good tent and do your way then stay with my crappy tent and a Costco Carport (can't afford to do the Kodiac tent AND the carport.)
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby Freedyjay » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:01 pm

How do you put the space between the cover and the tent is what I'm actually asking. As (from what I've read) it seems you need at least a foot of space between the two to keep the tent itself from getting warm (although it is tall so you figure the heat would stay near the top.)

Can I just toss a light cardboard box between the two?
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby gyre » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:09 am

Freedyjay wrote:Can I just toss a light cardboard box between the two?

This wouldn't hurt, if it would stay in place.

Separators with radiant reflectors are only there to maintain a space.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby Bob » Thu Aug 11, 2011 9:54 am

Could just use an old king size bed sheet in a dark color.
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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby StevenGoodman » Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:42 pm

I normally cover my Springbar with the white tyvek snow camo stuff, and it is fine. But I also like to occasionally get up in the morning and go tour BRC when no one else is awake!

Last year I never go around to covering it and it was OK. It helps to have something to the east to have partial shade in the early AM.

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Re: Have 10x14 Kodiak tent, do I need a shade over it

Postby usurpedus » Tue Jun 26, 2012 2:29 pm

bump

has anyone else just layered aluminet over a kodiak/bell/canvas tent?

what were the results?
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Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Postby YoppWorks » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:43 pm

I've been looking at lots of shelter/camping posts about tents and decided on buying a Scout 80 Springbar tent. From what I've been reading on this forum, I will need some sort of canopy to go over my tent (to help keep the sun and elements off the tent). Any suggestions on canopies that will work for a tall tent? I'm not bring an SUV or truck so it'll have to be something I can stake down completely. I'm a BM virgin but I'm trying to make sure I'm as prepared as I can be. :D
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Postby trilobyte » Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:54 pm

Do some reading, there are plenty of different canopy shade structure options mentioned on the boards. varying degrees of difficulty and cost, of course - read up and figure out which you'd like to try. Good luck!
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Postby MacGlenver » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:04 pm

I would second trilo's suggestion. Lots of reading available, so make use of it.

The first type of structure that comes to mind is a monkey hut. Read up on them, and make sure they'll be tall enough to cover the tent without touching it (else it'll eff up your tent). You'll likely need to modify the standard design by adding additional PVC to get the peak height you want. I recommend testing the build before you go, as the peak may be high enough, but the sloped sides may drop down and hit your tent. I'm bringing a 10x14 Kodiak for the first time this year, and am considering trying to put it under one of my monkey huts. The size of the 10x14 makes that a bit challenging, so i'll have to decide if it's worth the hassle.

There are two main reasons for putting your tent under a structure: 1. Shade 2. Wind protection. Your Springbar wont need wind protection (assuming you stake it out correctly), but shade will probably be useful. I am building a swamp cooler for the first time this year, so I'm debating whether that will be enough to keep the heat down and I can forego putting a shade over my tent (which would be nice to avoid, if possible).
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Postby VultureChow » Sun Jul 07, 2013 5:15 pm

Echoing MacGlenver, the height and more specifically the uniform height for much of the footprint would mean some significant changes to the standard monkey hut design. I left my Kodiak canvas unshaded last year, and it is impossible to sleep past 7:30 or so. At least for me.

Instead of trying to shade the tent, I'm doing a standard monkey hut and a hammock this year. Hoping I can grab another hour or two of sleep. Maybe even an afternoon nap. Noise usually isn't a barrier to sleep for me.

Come to think of it, I saw a bunch of Kodiak and springbars out there, but I don't recall seeing any shaded.
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Re: Canopy for Springbar tent? Suggestions?

Postby YoppWorks » Sun Jul 07, 2013 7:31 pm

I've been working my way through the posts trying to find some specifics already posted about Springbar tents. So far I've learned a lot but not about canopies. VultureChow- exactly, I haven't seen any posts about canopies but maybe it's because most with these tents don't use a canopy... Hmmm... I am worried about heat and sleeping. I know I'm not going to sleep much but I will need a little shut eye : ) MacGlenver- Very cool about the swamp cooler!!! I have been reading your posts about monkey tents. I'm mechanically challenged (I'm a 2-D artist... 3-D is a bit harder to wrap my brain around!) but I might do it. More research definitely needed! I just got my ticket (thank you STEP!!!) so I'm trying to get a move on it! Thank you! Any more ideas are appreciated!
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