Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

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Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Workinonit » Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:32 pm

So I just bought this radiant barrier foil with the intention of applying it to some reflective silver tarps from Harbor Freight to use as walls for my Ez-UP to cover my tent. Its pretty inexpensive and I am hoping it will provide some nice IR/heat reflection. Anyone have any experience with this stuff? Anyone have any experience applying this kind of material to a tarp? I was just going to buy a heavy duty contact cement and glue it to the backside of the tarps. Any advice woulde be much appreciated. I hear people swear up and down about Goop and using that for gluing stuff for the playa but just don't know how I would spread that over such a large area efficiently and cheaply. Plus, I can get a gallon of contact cement for $30 though...

Here is the radiant barrier foil:
http://www.atticfoil.com/

Its supposed to get to 100 today... I cannot wait to get to the playa to cool off!
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby gyre » Fri Jul 08, 2011 2:42 am

There was a camp that did this two years ago, though I wouldn't use hf tarps, and I doubt they did.

There are keg cozies made of reflectix or equivalent and the glue is clear and very tenacious.
I don't know what kind of adhesive though.
It is flexible.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Trishntek » Fri Jul 08, 2011 6:46 am

Are you referring to the bubble-wrap stuff with foil on each side? I have not tried the application your propose, but I am planning to sandwich it between two tarps. This is for another non-playa project which won't be complete until after TTITD. I'm trying to close in a patio and use this material for a sound barrier.

I am currently in the process of insulating my garage roof with it in the four foot rolls. That requires a staple every 6 inches. It is easy to work with in that controlled environment.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Workinonit » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:16 am

Trishntek wrote:Are you referring to the bubble-wrap stuff with foil on each side? I have not tried the application your propose, but I am planning to sandwich it between two tarps. This is for another non-playa project which won't be complete until after TTITD. I'm trying to close in a patio and use this material for a sound barrier.

I am currently in the process of insulating my garage roof with it in the four foot rolls. That requires a staple every 6 inches. It is easy to work with in that controlled environment.


I am using the thin foil. Everything I have read about the bubble wrap kind just says its more bulk and no better results.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Workinonit » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:17 am

gyre wrote:There was a camp that did this two years ago, though I wouldn't use hf tarps, and I doubt they did.

There are keg cozies made of reflectix or equivalent and the glue is clear and very tenacious.
I don't know what kind of adhesive though.
It is flexible.


What is wrong with Harbor Freight tarps?
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby gyre » Fri Jul 08, 2011 9:33 am

I don't think they're a particularly good tarp for the price.

Their heaviest have been recommended to me though, if I don't have stores mixed up.

I like shelter systems, though there are others.
http://shelsys.com/

There are multiple types of reflectix.
The best is mirrored on two sides of the bubble stuff, and there might be a double layer type.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby some seeing eye » Fri Jul 08, 2011 12:02 pm

That foil is polyethelene and common poly tarps are polyethelene. Talk to your local industrial adhesives store to find something with a long enough working time and temperature resistance. Likely you will end up with a spray that will loose strength at high temperatures, but still be good enough. It might be 3M Spray 90, or maybe you can find something really cheap that can be applied with a paint roller. Entirely possible the adhesive solvents could weaken the tarp. (We expect a full report post burn!)
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby gyre » Sat Jul 09, 2011 9:58 pm

Figjam's thread on Figjam mentions using a tarp adhesive.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby FIGJAM » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:05 pm

Thats a vinyl adhesive.

I have'nt tried it on poly yet.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Trishntek » Sat Jul 09, 2011 10:15 pm

Workinonit wrote:
gyre wrote:There was a camp that did this two years ago, though I wouldn't use hf tarps, and I doubt they did.

There are keg cozies made of reflectix or equivalent and the glue is clear and very tenacious.
I don't know what kind of adhesive though.
It is flexible.


What is wrong with Harbor Freight tarps?


Harbor Freight's "HD" tarp is only 10mil and the grommets can be anywhere from 30" to 36" apart. They are inconsistently spaced. True HD tarp is 14 mil thick with consistent grommet spacing of 18". I have some HF tarp that I needed in a pinch and doubled the grommets on it. It is adequate if you do that, but for the same money without the grommet hassle you can get true HD tarps online and made in the USA. http://www.canopiesandtarps.com/

The reflective bubble wrap I have is more for sound barrier than thermal insulation and bulk is what I seek. The reflective part is more cosmetic in the environment we are creating.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Workinonit » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:09 am

I completely forgot that I know a Materials Science Phd at work... Here is her advice!

"Here's what I can figure out based on the data available.

Nylon (the tarp) and polyethylene (the aluminum barrier material has polyethylene in it) are both pretty chemical resistant. However, the polyethylene is possibly going to be affected by either of the contact cements you've suggested. I would suggest instead the "nonflammable" version of the contact cement. I believe that it should bond to the nylon. (The barrier foil isn't as difficult to bond to.)

Here's the issue: Your "original" contact cement contains "petroleum spirits". This is possibly a problem for the radiant barrier... I think it might dissolve/soften the polyethylene. You can test this on a polyethylene bag, like a sandwich bag (ziplock, similar, or even on a small piece of the foil). If you have some of the contact cement, you can try it out and just make sure it doesn't liquify the bag/foil. You shouldn't have an issue with the tarp, but I'm a bit concerned about the barrier material. Even though you're actually bonding to aluminum (which should be fine), it is perforated, so the vapors/liquid will potentially get into the polyethylene. FYI, the high-heat-resistant stuff (HHR) has hexane in it, which would have similar concerns.

The first link for the "original" contact cement should be able to go up to 180F. I seriously doubt it'll get hotter than that in your car... The HHR cement needs to be sprayed... do you have a sprayer?

You might consider instead the nonflammable contact cement:
http://www.dap.com/product_details.aspx ... SubcatID=8
This doesn't have hexane. It has toluene, but that shouldn't affect your materials. I think it's a better option than the other two. It also goes up to 180F."


Yeah I hear ya.... non-flammable = soooo BOOOORRRRRINNGGG! :P
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby A Jester » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:49 am

[quote="Trishntek"]Are you referring to the bubble-wrap stuff with foil on each side? I have not tried the application your propose, but I am planning to sandwich it between two tarps. This is for another non-playa project which won't be complete until after TTITD. I'm trying to close in a patio and use this material for a sound barrier.

I am currently in the process of insulating my garage roof with it in the four foot rolls. That requires a staple every 6 inches. It is easy to work with in that controlled environment.[/quote]


It sounds like you don't need to know this, but from a building sciences perspective (and just in case anyone else reading this thread might be looking for advice)...

Radiant barrier is not insulation. It reflects heat (or cold) and stops radiation. It stops heat from emitting from itself. However, the radiant barrier itself is a conductor. That means that it will get hot (or cold). SO, if you're using radiant barrier for any sort of heat blocking purposes, you need to make sure that ONE SIDE OF THE BARRIER TOUCHES NOTHING.

By sandwiching it between two tarps, you're basically reducing it to nothing but material with no engineering. In other words, you'd probably get about the same performance from cardboard. The astrofoil (what we call it at work) will probably hold up to the elements easier, and bend easier, and there may be many reasons why you'd want to use it. But if someone is thinking of using astrofoil on their carport to keep the heat out, you need to make sure that one side of it is open to the air. Personally, I'd suggest having it on the outside of your carport, because then it will reduce the solar gain (and make your camp easier to find).

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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Bob » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:13 pm

Three words, with apologies to William Strunk Jr.: Omit needless work.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Savannah » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:33 pm

I've seen EZ-Up style shelters that have optional, removable walls you can purchase separately.

Wall:
http://www.amazon.com/Swiss-Smart-Sunsc ... B000N58EYG

Shelter:
http://www.amazon.com/Swiss-10-Foot-Sma ... B000N56R72

I do not own that shelter, but it's one I considered for a while. I would have had to stake it down particularly well, but the reviews implied it was more solid than the standard E-Z Up. (Verify that for yourself, things change).

I eventually went with flat-as-hell steel & shade cloth, and have curtain rods and curtains, which are to be tied back to reduce resistance when not in use. I don't try to shelter my tent. I sleep in it and then escape to the shade.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Workinonit » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:03 pm

Savannah wrote:I've seen EZ-Up style shelters that have optional, removable walls you can purchase separately.

Wall:
http://www.amazon.com/Swiss-Smart-Sunsc ... B000N58EYG

Shelter:
http://www.amazon.com/Swiss-10-Foot-Sma ... B000N56R72

I do not own that shelter, but it's one I considered for a while. I would have had to stake it down particularly well, but the reviews implied it was more solid than the standard E-Z Up. (Verify that for yourself, things change).

I eventually went with flat-as-hell steel & shade cloth, and have curtain rods and curtains, which are to be tied back to reduce resistance when not in use. I don't try to shelter my tent. I sleep in it and then escape to the shade.


I think the main problem with those ez-up walls is that they look much more like a Kite than a wall to me :) I have seen way too many of the ez-ups way up higher than I would ever want to be! I figure by extending a tarp out about 3 feet you still have a kite but this time the force pushes down, and you have a wonderful 3 foot gap between the tarps and your tent to store stuff that you also might not want to get blazing hot (ie:food, coolers, etc.).

I tend to stay out late and enjoy the nice weather of the night on the playa... sleeping in a bit would help tremendously with staying rested for the drive home. I have in the past had to take nights off to catch up with sleep during the event and would like to minimize this.

And on top of it, I just like projects and trying to figure out better ways to do things. Being cool is nice. Being hot is not.

I have the foil, tarp, and contact cement. Tonight I glue!
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby FIGJAM » Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:23 pm

This is the stuff I used to build a billboard vinyl tent.

http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/HH-66-Vinyl-Cement.html

I made it with the white side on the interior so a little light would really light upthe interior, but the off gassing of the vinyl it self was pretty strong.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Savannah » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:07 pm

I think the main problem with those ez-up walls is that they look much more like a Kite than a wall to me :) I have seen way too many of the ez-ups way up higher than I would ever want to be!


Yeah, you couldn't ever leave a wall up unattended (and I will never leave curtains pulled & unattended this year; they will be tied to the side).

My favorite shades have been: 1) completely flat, like I have now, and 2) monkey hut, in that order. The monkey hut gives better shade, but is a little noisy in wind, and was a little claustrophobic.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby gyre » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:29 pm

Radiant insulation is used by using spacers to leave an air gap between layers of reflective material.

I think 26 layers is good for over 200 degrees of isolation.

That's with better foil than reflectix.


Is the foil going between tarps?
I would put it on the outside too.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Trishntek » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:45 pm

gyre wrote:Radiant insulation is used by using spacers to leave an air gap between layers of reflective material.

I think 26 layers is good for over 200 degrees of isolation.

That's with better foil than reflectix.


Is the foil going between tarps?
I would put it on the outside too.


There may be a bit of confusion here. I am the one considering placing the bubble wrap foil between two tarps for SOUND BARRIER ONLY. I'm not seeking the thermal properties whatsoever. I simply chose foil over regular bubble wrap for a bit of additional durability.

ETA: My project is in reference to a separate, NON-PLAYA structure.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby capjbadger » Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:49 pm

Workinonit wrote:I am using the thin foil. Everything I have read about the bubble wrap kind just says its more bulk and no better results.

The "bubble warp" type stuff like "Reflectex" is awesome. Radiant barrier plus the trapped air insulation. I'm not sure where you read that other stufff.

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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Bob » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:43 pm

BTW, prices have come way down on point-and-shoot thermometers if you want to try to quantify all this bullshit.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby gyre » Fri Jul 15, 2011 7:20 pm

Taylor has some great thermometers with peak readings on them, low and high or just highs.
The best prices I found are from a farm supply.

I love their old style railroad thermometer.
Best bang for the buck.
They do have a good remote digital, if you need the remote feature.

The most accurate are still their mercury.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Workinonit » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:04 am

Well one done... took a few hours because I had to do it myself. Might work out better with a few more hands.
Image
It was hot a hell outside that day. Nothing like putting adhesive on a radiant barrier that reflects all the heat from the AZ sun right back up at you. Was sweating like mad!

You know I think when its 100+ degrees its a little hard to tell if its working... I will let you know after the playa!
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Shiny

Postby gyre » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:19 pm

Why didn't you do this in the shade?


You should still be able to tell it's working.
Try it in the morning?

Looks good.
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Re: Shiny

Postby Workinonit » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:03 pm

gyre wrote:Why didn't you do this in the shade?


You should still be able to tell it's working.
Try it in the morning?

Looks good.


I did as much as I could in the shade. Some of the logistics of it prevented me from doing it all there...

I would try it out in the morning, but unfortunately I cannot. We had some monsoon storms on Sunday and it nearly took the ez-up away as it was not staked or tied down. So I had to break everything down and put it inside. Made it barely with literally only a few minutes to spare.

Thanks! It will hopefully look much better with another pair of hands to help. If/When I get around to doing the other 3, I will try to take note of the effectiveness. Unfortunately, when its 100+ degrees, even a little relief is still quite hot!

Can't wait to get to the playa to cool off! Its practically tropical there!
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby adamrice » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:19 pm

I am experimenting with the DAP contact cement recommended upthread by workinonit. As far as I can tell, this stuff is about as sticky on radiant barrier as scotch tape. Unless I'm doing something wrong (always a possibility), it's completely useless.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Workinonit » Tue Mar 27, 2012 4:25 pm

adamrice wrote:I am experimenting with the DAP contact cement recommended upthread by workinonit. As far as I can tell, this stuff is about as sticky on radiant barrier as scotch tape. Unless I'm doing something wrong (always a possibility), it's completely useless.


You are using the green DAP contact cement? If you are using a poly tarp and an aluminum foil barrier, applying to both side and allowing it to dry sufficiently (depending on humidity and temperature) and then allow it to cure over 24 hours. Not sure what u are doing differently, but my tarps are still good to go and worked great at burning man, tent got to 75 degrees maybe cooler mid day with the swamp on.

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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby forrest Gump » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:59 pm

last year I just spayed a "metallic finish" reflective paint on my ez up and it worked great.
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby adamrice » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:01 am

You are using the green DAP contact cement? If you are using a poly tarp and an aluminum foil barrier, applying to both side and allowing it to dry sufficiently (depending on humidity and temperature) and then allow it to cure over 24 hours


Yep, that's what I'm using (though I'm using recycled billboard vinyl, not packaged tarp), and that's what I'm doing. For my experiment, I washed my tarp beforehand, but it belatedly occurred to me that there might be some kind of release compound on the radiant barrier (which won't stick to itself with this contact cement).
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Re: Radiant Barrier Foil to Tarp Adhesion!

Postby Workinonit » Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:56 am

adamrice wrote:
You are using the green DAP contact cement? If you are using a poly tarp and an aluminum foil barrier, applying to both side and allowing it to dry sufficiently (depending on humidity and temperature) and then allow it to cure over 24 hours


Yep, that's what I'm using (though I'm using recycled billboard vinyl, not packaged tarp), and that's what I'm doing. For my experiment, I washed my tarp beforehand, but it belatedly occurred to me that there might be some kind of release compound on the radiant barrier (which won't stick to itself with this contact cement).


The advice I was given about this adhesive was from a materials science PHd, I am guessing the reason that she may have mentioned the non-volatile stuff may be a factor to your problem because polyethelene is a homopolymer and vinyl is a monomer. Chemically and atomically, the fact that its vinyl and not polyethene may be the reason why its not working for you.

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