Preparation includes plans for clean-up ...

Ideas, advice, tips, and tricks regarding shelter, shade, tents, and camping. Yes, this includes RV's too.

Postby sputnik » Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:53 pm

You know this isn't about you Simon, or your camp mates. It's about the extraordinary efforts that have to be put forth when a camp decides to provide a huge attraction. Clearly you put a LOT of effort into the setup and the LNT in your living space. However, it is inarguable that your efforts to ensure that LNT applies to the dome areas have to date not been as extraordinary needed.

You can blame the participants. It is largely their fault that moop gets left behind.

Others can blame you for providing an attractive nuisance and not being prepared to deal with mess.

I hope you find a solution to the problem. I think that breaking into the music for 10 minutes of mooping is only likely to break the mood and cause people to wander down the street to the next big bright boomy place.

Let me make an analogy. I decide that I am going to have a camp that makes crafts out of little tiny beads, and over the course of the week the participants in my camp's project create many wonderful items, but also drop many beads all over the place. Some of these participants leave without mooping after themselves. At the end of the week when it's time to pack up, who is responsible for ensuring that my camp area is clean? I would be. Would I create such a camp? Not without some good plan to ensure that the little beads didn't become a nightmare for me to clean up before I left, because I KNOW that some of my participants are going to wander off and leave beads behind. Because I KNOW that I am not going to notice that they've wandered off before cleaning up after themselves. Yes, we're all responsible for cleaning up after ourselves, but some people don't care. If I create that camp and then walk away at the end and say that all those beads on the ground are not my responsibility, what would you say to me?

Here I am. You know what I look like too. And I am not giving you the finger.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:55 pm

How to eliminate moop? Those responsible for a designated area of land do not leave the premises until all MOOP is removed, and the area has no trace of them having been there.

Like all the areas coloured green did.

No excuses. You agree to leave no trace, then don't.




listen toots, we picked up more of OTHER PEOPLES CRAP than you even carried in or out..

quit bitching about the semantics, and deal with the fucking reality.


if you feel like you need a whipping boy, go find one, homie dont play that shit.
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Postby goathead » Fri Oct 16, 2009 12:56 pm

unjonharley wrote:
goathead wrote:
Considering what they do, yes they are some hot shit.



this makes it ok for them to do as they please and stomp over the single camper..

He can suck my ass..


Maybe the single campers should help and support those who help enrich our fucking time out there. Instead of bitching about, slow moving vehicles, not helping clean up the fucking mess we all create at their camps. Instead of just getting in their cars and departing the scene of the party. These guys work their asses off, before, during, and after the burn for all of us.
Yes they are hot shit.
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Postby littleflower » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:02 pm

goathead wrote:
unjonharley wrote:
goathead wrote:
Considering what they do, yes they are some hot shit.



this makes it ok for them to do as they please and stomp over the single camper..

He can suck my ass..


Maybe the single campers should help and support those who help enrich our fucking time out there. Instead of bitching about, slow moving vehicles, not helping clean up the fucking mess we all create at their camps. Instead of just getting in their cars and departing the scene of the party. These guys work their asses off, before, during, and after the burn for all of us.
Yes they are hot shit.


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Postby unjonharley » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:08 pm

every year i help serve green beer and bacon to the Shamrock runner.

The mess left is along a two three block area.. My kid and i go just for the fun to pickup the moop.

WE throw the party we pick it up
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Postby unjonharley » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:14 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:to each his own....i am not a Raver, thank you very much, but i do love to DANCE.


i've been going since 96', and quite frankly, there is something for everyone.

let's keep it that way, Huh?



Expand your camp to include a couple of rosabouts that do nothing but keep it clean
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Postby goathead » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:19 pm

unjonharley wrote:every year i help serve green beer and bacon to the Shamrock runner.

The mess left is along a two three block area.. My kid and i go just for the fun to pickup the moop.

WE throw the party we pick it up


Yep "WE" throw the party, and "WE" should all help pick up after it.
Maybe "WE" have all been lacking, in that the moop map comes out and it should let all of us "WE" know, who needs more help.
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Postby Fire_Moose » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:23 pm

quick question Simon....yer in charge of Opulent? or what camp is it we are talking about?
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Postby gaminwench » Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:48 pm

Root Society is Simon's baby...they were GREEN last year, so they do know what they're doing...(YAY! Simon)
Boijoy-The dance song is 'SHOUT', it's a good idea...when you hear that song, it's MOOP time, and you must come off the floor with MOOP to show for it - have the camp hotties move through the dancers with moop bags,everyone cheers, drinks some water...then start the party again!
Maybe all of the sound camps use that same song, so it becomes a 'playa-wide' recognized effort...
"You know you make me wanna MOOP, get your hands up and MOOP..."
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Postby Fire_Moose » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:00 pm

Oh ok. I'll have to check out root society next year....how big is the dome? Can we spin fire inside?

That was the highlight of my burn, spinning fire in the middle of the Opulent dance floor....
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Postby sputnik » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:18 pm

Root Society was at 2 and Esplanade, right on the corner. I'm sure you saw them
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:35 pm

for the record, Root Society is NOT my baby, although i treat it with a ferociousness that only a mother can have. I am a member of a camp of 109 people (Including cultural anthropology students...newbs) from all walks of life and location...i make the upholstered beds in the chill dome and help out any other way i can.

i stumbled into the camp in 2005, alone, by chance, after meeting the vj's on a train, helped them carry their shit through reno (the hotel was ALOT further from the train station than anyone had expected) and they adopted me and even gave me a ride to the site...When i arrived, Jefr and crew suggested i stay since i really had no camp, and was going super-solo.

i worked and worked and worked...and had fun all at the same time...and for once, my ego-laden self was able to appreciate what it is to be a small part of something large and wonderful.

sounds really fucking corny, huh.

i thought so too.

they asked me to come back the following year, and every year since i have been a part of the root society "family"...

again, cliched, i know...

i have brought many newbs along thru the years, even before root society.

i know it's not your "Typical" newb experience, but in many ways i'm glad it is.

we try our damndest to do things right...we work so that you may play. we are there before, and after the event.

we get really drunk.

i digress.


what i'm trying to say is Root Society is not my baby, in fact i was theirs, and they have raised a good citizen of Black Rock City by being kind, true, and the best bunch of intelligent hard working, hard playing motherfuckers i have ever met...

loyal...you bet your ass i am.

WOOF!


root is at 10 and esplanade btw.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Oct 16, 2009 2:53 pm

lets look at it another way...

we are at the corners...


when the human eye looks at a tv screen, there are certain places it returns to again and again....if the playa were that tv screen, certain parts would naturally burn the pixels.

kinda like moop...perhaps a traffic study is to be done, why the hell not, we're a metropolis with growing pains.

pondering pondering...

i know some geek out there has the answer, and i bet it could be made into art, or some artist out there who could turn this into science...same thing really.

walk the walk people...help us fix it, don't tell us to leave, because were here, were weird, and we know how to Burn, and why all the Hatin'?













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Postby sputnik » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:23 pm

Right 10, not 2. No idea why I typed 2 instead of 10. I know the dif
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Postby unjonharley » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:29 pm

sputnik wrote:Right 10, not 2. No idea why I typed 2 instead of 10.


Your going into hibernation
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Postby sputnik » Fri Oct 16, 2009 3:30 pm

1) You need a playa zamboni. It sucks in playa and moop at one end and spits out clean playa on the other end. Run it around the dome once a day. (this has been in my head for a while)

2) Find something that can go down on the floor that will keep all the moop from getting ground into the playa, there must be some sort of heavy duty material that can serve as a ground cover. Hell, it could be as simple as a bunch of plywood like the Roller Disco uses.
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Postby phil » Fri Oct 16, 2009 4:12 pm

we do our best to alleviate this problem, but quit sucking the hater-aid, and step back for a second from your high and mighty Purity and give us some SLACK instead of flogging a horse that so many people have ridden on, and had fun doing so.

I have no idea where this hissy fit sprang from, hon. My comments were that (a) if a camp is going to attract a crowd, it should have a plan to clean up, and (b) I agree that there should be an organized way for the people who go there to party to be part of the clean up, but I can't figure out how to enforce that.

I have no clue why that's 'sucking the hater-aid,' or 'high and mighty.' The only anger I see is yours. And it's unreasonable, given the suggestions people are making about solving the problem. Your rants are unwarranted.

You do, of course, get to have all the hissy fits you want and do all the name-calling you desire. Sounds way too defensive to me, but of course I don't get to have an opinion on the matter. Right? You'll just bully me? Go for it.

you don't want Us?

be careful of what you ask for.

Oh? If I ask, your camp will stop coming?
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Postby Elderberry » Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:03 pm

gaminwench wrote:Root Society is Simon's baby...they were GREEN last year, so they do know what they're doing...(YAY! Simon)
Boijoy-The dance song is 'SHOUT', it's a good idea...when you hear that song, it's MOOP time, and you must come off the floor with MOOP to show for it - have the camp hotties move through the dancers with moop bags,everyone cheers, drinks some water...then start the party again!
Maybe all of the sound camps use that same song, so it becomes a 'playa-wide' recognized effort...
"You know you make me wanna MOOP, get your hands up and MOOP..."


I like that idea!

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Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:37 pm

phil, my apologies, but if you read this thread from start to finish, you'll see that not only did I admit we were wrong i very politely and sincerely asked for help to solve the problem.


numerous times.


it was met with "lets get rid of the sound camps" and "maybe you should'nt be there"

maybe we should'nt...fine....who is going to step up and jump into that fire?

who is going to do it better? Any takers?

i started out constructive...it went negative and ugly...i defended our position, and when the heckling continued, i went nuclear, as is my way.

i started out playing nice, and will try to do so in the future. I do have a threshold, obviously.

if people say stupid shit, i'll shove it down their throats, metaphorically speaking. of course.

my slang is not recognized by some of a certain generation, i'm sorry.

"Hater-Aid"....a drink made of envy and spite, often directed at those that don't deserve such treatment, mainly because they do it right, much to the chagrin of those that said they couldn't.

Anger and defensive, you bet your bippy (understand that?) i was there, i participated, i cleaned up, i have been on the playa for 13 years and have been around town if youknow what i mean, and you are criticizing the wrong people.

help us fix it, dont just shit on us because you can.


nuff' said.


by the way, last year, when we were green, i still defended op temp because i KNOW how fucking hard it is to be of service to the playa, and then get yelled at for working twice to three times as hard as your average "burner".


it is a pass?

no...we can and will do better...

will i stand by while people talk out of their ass just to put us down

No Fucking Way, pilgrim.
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Postby littleflower » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:23 pm

simon gets abused just for being here ... despite the fact that root society was not nearly as big a problem as a number of other camps. where is someone from opulent temple, or maybe the big red spot a few blocks behind root society ???

it really is ultimately the BMorg's problem ... because they have to clean it up after the event, in any case. if they decide that the moop problem created by a certain camp exceeds their value to the event, they'll tell 'em to get lost. (simple economics!!) if opulent temple is still there next year, people, BMorg is telling you something. and it's in BMorg's best interest to find a way to fix the problem, since they'll have to fix it in the long run anyhow....

Now i know where to pick up moop. i didn't really know before this ... i was thinking more just to clean up after meself ... but if i was there to-day, i'd go a-mooping at the opulent temple, instead of looking in vain for crap around the barbarian camp. and i bet there are a lot of people like me.....

we're talking about a gifting community, no?

and the big sound camps put a ton of money and effort into the amazing places they create ..... no?

doesn't it make sense to at least suggest to people that it would be really helpful to pick up moop at those camps during the event? right now they do not do this. i mean, it couldn't hurt ....
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:25 pm

One more thing, as i was sitting here chewing my cud (phil knows what that means too) i took phil's suggestion and tossed it around a couple of times.

although i think a plywood dance floor would work, it really is more conducive to roller skating and would probably increase injuries in the dome...HOWEVER

maybe wall to wall carpeting?

or a series of rugs which would serve to act as a barrier from debris being pushed below the surface and hidden.

it is doable i think, and practical as far as clean-up goes as well as aesthetically pleasing to the overall experience.

does anyone out there have experience with a large space and rugs? some way to secure them and avoid tripping and or stubbing injuries and whether or not this would work on such a scale.

i think it just might.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:29 pm

Simon, whatever I may have written, I have tried to think through the problem in a reasonable way. I don't have the amount of data on the issue that you do, so my efforts might be really shallow. If I have said anything to hurt you, I'm sorry, and it was not my intent.
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Postby Oldguy » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:31 pm

My suggestion is that on your volunteer list you have persons assigned to be greeners for your dome area as well as your camp areas. Most departments I have worked for have assigned duties. Some folks actually enjoy cleaning up. Definite scheduled shifts are important.

I have worked the past 2 years as a greener for center camp cafe. We have 6 four hour shifts covering the 24 hour day to keep up with the crowds and collecting cups and waste fluids. That's 6 volunteers minimum to pick up per day, we usually had 2 or 3 greeners/ waste collection per shift ( not counting all the baristas, barbacks, and supervisors..). I worked seven 4 hour shifts during the week. Perhaps you could set up a volunteer table like center camp does, and have people sign up. People will flake or have to leave for good reasons, and extra people is a good idea.

So, my suggestion is to have a sign up list. DJs, cooks, dishwashers, greeners, camp moopers, doormen, hosts, etc...set up, take down, drivers, stagehands, lighting, electrician, engineer, fabrication, rigger, artists, performers, band, security, liason, communications, finance, payroll, legal, etc...

You might use some incentives to get people to volunteer, meal tickets, admission tickets, use of facilities, a portion of grog, the combination to a private porto-potty, whatever. I'm sure you know how to motivate the masses.
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edited to add: The idea to have floor coverings is good. A recyling area with big cans for (1.)aluminum/ beer cans, (2.)plastics- bottles/ wrappers, (3.)burnable paper and wood, and (4.) non-recyclable waste/ garbage
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Postby gaminwench » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:40 pm

Large Areas and rugs...
if you use recycled carpet, make certain that the edges are finished - duct tape, burnt with a torch...do this pre-playa...
the larger the roll, the heavier it is, especially with playa dust in it...
At strike, don't shake the carpet out, roll it up, take it off-playa, then sweep/vacuum/whatever the gunk out, or dispose of (properly :)...
At installation, duct tape 'finished' edges to each other, both under and over to keep folks from tripping (on the carpet!)
Covering the area with tarps first makes cleanup even easier, but makes for extra FUN if it rains...

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Postby unjonharley » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:41 pm

just how deep dose the dust get in the dance area?

i use a cheap folding rake to lay ligt furrows in the dust. suprising what turns up at the edge of the furrows.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Oct 16, 2009 6:46 pm

Oldguy wrote:My suggestion is that on your volunteer list you have persons assigned to be greeners for your dome area as well as your camp areas. Most departments I have worked for have assigned duties. Some folks actually enjoy cleaning up. Definite scheduled shifts are important.

I have worked the past 2 years as a greener for center camp cafe. We have 6 four hour shifts covering the 24 hour day to keep up with the crowds and collecting cups and waste fluids. That's 6 volunteers minimum to pick up per day, we usually had 2 or 3 greeners/ waste collection per shift ( not counting all the baristas, barbacks, and supervisors..). I worked seven 4 hour shifts during the week. Perhaps you could set up a volunteer table like center camp does, and have people sign up. People will flake or have to leave for good reasons, and extra people is a good idea.

So, my suggestion is to have a sign up list. DJs, cooks, dishwashers, greeners, camp moopers, doormen, hosts, etc...set up, take down, drivers, stagehands, lighting, electrician, engineer, fabrication, rigger, artists, performers, band, security, liason, communications, finance, payroll, legal, etc...

You might use some incentives to get people to volunteer, meal tickets, admission tickets, use of facilities, a portion of grog, the combination to a private porto-potty, whatever. I'm sure you know how to motivate the masses.



all that you have mentioned we have been doing for the past 4 years.

like i said, we will do better, we know we can...it is one of the focal points on the playa as is center camp, (and i too have worked there at the cafe as a recycle guy, trash guy, ice guy and Greener) and to an extent, our "demographics" are a bit different and the atmosphere and energy different as well.

how do you stop an e-tard from being e-tarded?

i've always liked brute force and tazers, but have been told this is just not cool by the powers that be, as well as the local sheriffs.

i've tried by example, and by megaphone and shame and even some of grandmas Jewish guilt...people are people, even burners.

how to tread the line between being passive and getting fucked, or being overly aggressive and pissing people off (even if it is for their own or the common good) is a hard walk.

perhaps by being pro-PHIL actic, and cover the shit up so we can vacuum it, we can again be green and put to bed the whole notion that we dont belong out there, or that we are a nuisance and a bane to the project.

we dont make Burning man, we make up a small part of it, and every part is important. I do think that the "Big Sound" camps add to the mix, and in a positive way, overall.
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Postby Oldguy » Fri Oct 16, 2009 7:04 pm

Simon of the Playa, yes it is a fine line. You can't please everyone, so please yourself. I've played the selfeffacing, humble servant/dormat role but I'm not into S&M. I've done the take this job and stuff it thing a time or two. I've been a leader and a manager type too at times. It is hard to say no, to be the boss, to tell people what to do. I was not cut out to be a cop, I'm more of a helper. Everyone is different, and finding our place is a lifelong search for some like me.

Saying all that, just tell the bitches to bend over and pick something up.
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Postby Bob » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:12 pm

Not a huge secret that *any* stage or rave camp contributes much more litter than other camps...

Conversely, there's litter everywhere on the event site, and the "green" designation is relative...

Maybe the real problem is the background levels of trash are too low... c'mon, everybody, do your part...

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Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Oct 16, 2009 9:28 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPRBd5uY7F8[/youtube]
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Oct 16, 2009 11:45 pm

fishy, no offense is EVER taken.

i have always found your contributions to be clever, intelligent, well thought out and interesting.

you don't need to apologize or make justifications, i respect your opinion enormously.
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