Gifting food/drink - NV health permit required? Seriously?!

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Gifting food/drink - NV health permit required? Seriously?!

Postby domitron » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:10 pm

I just read in the survival guide that to gift other people food or drink, one needs a Nevada health permit in order for such an act of selflessness to be legal? What a load of crap. This is a private event held on public property. In that regard it is no different than if I held a big party for the fourth of July on the beach. Are we saying that under such a circumstance I would need a license to pass out fruit juice and appetizers? Do you know how many parties I've been to where that was not done? Dozens.

Well even if it is true, no one out there will do this outside of the big camps on the Esplanade, but it's annoying that such a law even exists. Furthermore, it's just more evidence that no matter how hard one tries, one cannot possibly obey all the laws because there exist such nuanced laws that it's impossible short of having a degree in law. I mean I assume it is illegal to pick your nose on public property too (after all, that's definitely a biohazard that could kill an innocent bystander, right?).
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Postby Eric » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:19 pm

Nevada food & beverage is on playa making sure the rules are enforced- this is for the good of the community, not to make your life difficult. If you think food poisoning is bad when you're at home, try to imagine it when you're sleeping in a hot tent 2 blocks from the porta-potties, and you have to put your face over the dirty blue water to puke.

Seriously- this is a health issue. If you're too lazy to follow the rules, don't feed other people. The rules they enforce are pretty simple, and every camp that focuses on food follows them. If you don't like it, don't play.

The health permits do not apply if you just have a kitchen for your camp, it's only when you start feeding the general population that they kick in.

And if you think a week at Burning Man is just like a 4th of July beach party, you're attending the wrong event.
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Re: Gifting food/drink - NV health permit required? Seriousl

Postby C187 » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:28 pm

domitron wrote:...Well even if it is true, no one out there will do this outside of the big camps on the Esplanade, but it's annoying that such a law even exists...


Uh.. not true...
My camp isn't a placed camp, and we'll be serving food with permit. Not just any food, but awesome fucking food! With a side a funk music, or even a live band. But wait, it get's better! Because we're following the rules, your food wont have any sort of sex lube, seminal/vaginal fluid or whatever else might be on someone making the food('s) hands. Since, get this, we washed them, and had gloves on. Also the stuff used to prep will be washed in the radically familiar three sink system you find at every food establishment in the default world.

All the good food comes from camps deep in the city. Most of them are small. Kind of like your local corner grill, or hole in the wall dive dinner.


The fact is officials will be looking, and asking camps if they have a permit to serve. While it's a bit of a headache to get the permit, the requirements of it are no different then what you'd find at any place that serves food. They are in place to reduce the risk of spreading crap, and keep the food you consume safe.

Don't like it? Don't eat anything thats gifted to you.
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Postby Token » Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:54 pm

It's not a big deal. The NDH basically wants you to have a hand washing station and some common fucking sense.

If this is too much bother, please do not give out food.

Read the requirements, take a deep breath, and do the right thing.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:36 pm

Really nothing more to say, except, maybe that vomiting is bad. Intestinal expulsion for hours and hours until your butt is sore is so not how I want to spend my vacation.
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Re: Gifting food/drink - NV health permit required? Seriousl

Postby Clar-i-ty » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:42 pm

C187 wrote:
domitron wrote:...Well even if it is true, no one out there will do this outside of the big camps on the Esplanade, but it's annoying that such a law even exists...


Uh.. not true...
My camp isn't a placed camp, and we'll be serving food with permit. Not just any food, but awesome fucking food! With a side a funk music, or even a live band. But wait, it get's better! Because we're following the rules, your food wont have any sort of sex lube, seminal/vaginal fluid or whatever else might be on someone making the food('s) hands. Since, get this, we washed them, and had gloves on. Also the stuff used to prep will be washed in the radically familiar three sink system you find at every food establishment in the default world.

All the good food comes from camps deep in the city. Most of them are small. Kind of like your local corner grill, or hole in the wall dive dinner.


The fact is officials will be looking, and asking camps if they have a permit to serve. While it's a bit of a headache to get the permit, the requirements of it are no different then what you'd find at any place that serves food. They are in place to reduce the risk of spreading crap, and keep the food you consume safe.

Don't like it? Don't eat anything thats gifted to you.


Good fucking food and funk music? I'm in. And thank you for hand washing and cooking the bacon crisp!
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Postby geekster » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:44 pm

"If you think food poisoning is bad when you're at home, try to imagine it when you're sleeping in a hot tent 2 blocks from the porta-potties"

I believe it was what ... 2007 when the pre-event shits hit the staff at BRC? It was NOT PRETTY. That was the year everyone was getting sick from that spinach field somewhere around Salinas or something but I believe what hit the playa was some sort norovirus or something. In any case, I was NOT pretty to see event staff barreling through the gate with that "get the fuck out of my way, I am shitting in my pants" look on their face. It ran its course by the time the event started, though. Man, the two weeks before the event were not a pretty time. I was half afraid to eat in the commissary that year and made an extra Reno run for more canned goods.
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Postby ibdave » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:44 pm

anyone remember Bianca's smut shack grilled cheese sandwich's ?? 98' my 1st year and our campmate and some others got it bad..... :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:57 pm

That wasn't 07, Geekster, because I remember it, and I wastn' there that year.
Is 06 possible?
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Postby Eric » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:20 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:That wasn't 07, Geekster, because I remember it, and I wastn' there that year.
Is 06 possible?


'06 sounds right. We had a campmate from DPW that year & he was telling us about it.

How sad is it that I have to remember the years by trying to figure out where our camp was.
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Postby geekster » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:22 pm

Yeah, it could have been 2006. Let me check something.

Yes, it would have been 2006 because it was contemporary with this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14841731/

There was a lot of sick staff that year before the event. I am really glad all that got cleared up before the campers got there. MAN that would be a mess.

ADDED: And that is one reason why I take an adequate supply of canned goods. You won't get sick from contamination or spoilage. I would rather have less than stellar meals but not have to worry about a case of the squirts on the playa.

It is hard enough staying hydrated as it is without your body ejecting every bit of moisture you attempt to put in it by every available orifice.
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Postby TomServo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:23 pm

ibdave wrote:anyone remember Bianca's smut shack grilled cheese sandwich's ?? 98' my 1st year and our campmate and some others got it bad..... :shock: :shock: :shock:

They wouldn't let me in! Maybe because it was nighttime, but my beer, painted like a campbell's soup can wasn't good enough! My ex got in, without a gift, and soon left...go figure! .....now that I think about it, that was my first night on the playa!

As to the original question...not 100% on the rules, but placed camps are required to have permits. If your unregistered, just use common sense and cleanliness. I can't imagine how many block parties or backyard bbq's they could bust in. Nevada.
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Postby geekster » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:30 pm

As to the original question...not 100% on the rules, but placed camps are required to have permits. If your unregistered, just use common sense and cleanliness. I can't imagine how many block parties or backyard bbq's they could bust in. Nevada.


You don't need a permit for a private party in your camp or a kitchen that feeds only your own camp. You need a permit for anything you are providing to the general public.
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Postby TomServo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:55 pm

geekster wrote:
As to the original question...not 100% on the rules, but placed camps are required to have permits. If your unregistered, just use common sense and cleanliness. I can't imagine how many block parties or backyard bbq's they could bust in. Nevada.


You don't need a permit for a private party in your camp or a kitchen that feeds only your own camp. You need a permit for anything you are providing to the general public.


I believe good sanitary conditions are sufficient, but why not call th NDH? And I believe we got our bar permit thru BMORG.
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Postby Token » Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:58 pm

Even private kitchens need to register if serving more than 30 campers.
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Postby TomServo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:09 pm

Token wrote:Even private kitchens need to register if serving more than 30 campers.


I wonder if "honorary" camp mates fit that bill...?
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Postby Trishntek » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:29 pm

BUT! Prepackaged foods, given in original wrappers are not applicable to the regulations. Ice purchased from center camp is also not an issue.

Fruit juices ARE subject to regulation as is water not in its store-bought container.

At least, that is my understanding.
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Postby Elorrum » Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:39 pm

This thread just brings up the issue of good camper hygiene in general... It's smart not to have bags of snacks that everyone reaches into... pour from the bag into your hands, or bag individual amounts, and be wary of grab into bag snacks offered around the playa.
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Re: Gifting food/drink - NV health permit required? Seriousl

Postby Elderberry » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:17 pm

domitron wrote:
Well even if it is true, no one out there will do this outside of the big camps on the Esplanade, but it's annoying that such a law even exists.


It's not just the large camps on the esplanade that get food permits. We get one to serve root beer floats legally on the playa, and so do many other smaller camps that are serving food.

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Postby TomServo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:38 pm

So where's the info on permits, for non placed camps? We go through BMORG?

Never ran a bar of my own...
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Postby domitron » Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:42 pm

First off I have been going to Burning Man since 2004, and I will never miss the event until they start doing strip and cavity searches at the entrance with lie detector tests. And believe me with the passive attitudes I see here, so willing to bend over to be fucked a little harder, that day is coming. Today it's permits for serving cookies. Tomorrow it'll be probes up your ass to see if you are a mule. Just wait and see if you don't believe me.

So let me get this straight. Most of the people here believe that by having a participant go through the hoops of obtaining a permit, food poisoning is someone likely to be avoided? This is maybe the intent of the law, but it won't work. For it to work, there would need to be inspections. So where are the inspectors that make sure that the recommendations in the permit are being followed? No inspections and there is no point to the permit. I mean if as a full-grown adult you don't get that you don't keep stuff like mayo salad in the sun on a summers day, then you are too retarded to be alive; most likely you have already been killed by drunk driving or trying to go 150 in your geo by mixing nitrous in the air intake.

Let me give an example: my aunt once accidentally food poisoned three people at a wedding reception. She is in her 50s. Does that mean that if she had signed a paper about proper sanitation that it would not have happened? No. The ingredients in the dish were not sanitary because the store she purchased them from had not kept the temperature low enough. Her own procedure had nothing to do with it. And so it will be with the permits.

Personally I am not serving food. If I did, it would be something like cookies, jelly beans, dried fruit, etc. I certainly would not bother with a permit giving such things out. Within my own camp and in our chill zone one night, I will be serving Kratom Odula Superfood juice, and I will not be getting a permit to do so. I won't serve many people because it is simply too expensive to give out a lot of something like that, and I certainly wont advertise it because I'd have a million cops at my place looking for shit that wasn't there because Kratom is a legal psychoactive (it's pretty easy to know how a cop's mind will work - if it ain't booze, it is somehow "evil" and the gifter is suspect for harboring all sorts of illegal things).

I guess this is how any event must become once it gets really big. Why? I assume because all the sudden you get a bunch of sue-happy folks just waiting to get sick after they eat some hot potato salad. Look, you sign a waiver for you LIFE when you take the ticket, then you do something really stupid, you should be happy you didn't lose your life. Be man enough to accept responsibility for what you put in your mouth, and please, use some fucking common sense.
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Postby TomServo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:51 pm

domitron wrote:First off I have been going to Burning Man since 2004, and I will never miss the event until they start doing strip and cavity searches at the entrance with lie detector tests. And believe me with the passive attitudes I see here, so willing to bend over to be fucked a little harder, that day is coming. Today it's permits for serving cookies. Tomorrow it'll be probes up your ass to see if you are a mule. Just wait and see if you don't believe me.

So let me get this straight. Most of the people here believe that by having a participant go through the hoops of obtaining a permit, food poisoning is someone likely to be avoided? This is maybe the intent of the law, but it won't work. For it to work, there would need to be inspections. So where are the inspectors that make sure that the recommendations in the permit are being followed? No inspections and there is no point to the permit. I mean if as a full-grown adult you don't get that you don't keep stuff like mayo salad in the sun on a summers day, then you are too retarded to be alive; most likely you have already been killed by drunk driving or trying to go 150 in your geo by mixing nitrous in the air intake.

Let me give an example: my aunt once accidentally food poisoned three people at a wedding reception. She is in her 50s. Does that mean that if she had signed a paper about proper sanitation that it would not have happened? No. The ingredients in the dish were not sanitary because the store she purchased them from had not kept the temperature low enough. Her own procedure had nothing to do with it. And so it will be with the permits.

Personally I am not serving food. If I did, it would be something like cookies, jelly beans, dried fruit, etc. I certainly would not bother with a permit giving such things out. Within my own camp and in our chill zone one night, I will be serving Kratom Odula Superfood juice, and I will not be getting a permit to do so. I won't serve many people because it is simply too expensive to give out a lot of something like that, and I certainly wont advertise it because I'd have a million cops at my place looking for shit that wasn't there because Kratom is a legal psychoactive (it's pretty easy to know how a cop's mind will work - if it ain't booze, it is somehow "evil" and the gifter is suspect for harboring all sorts of illegal things).

I guess this is how any event must become once it gets really big. Why? I assume because all the sudden you get a bunch of sue-happy folks just waiting to get sick after they eat some hot potato salad. Look, you sign a waiver for you LIFE when you take the ticket, then you do something really stupid, you should be happy you didn't lose your life. Be man enough to accept responsibility for what you put in your mouth, and please, use some fucking common sense.


That's why I'm doing it beyond the BLM. But keeping it clean. This post was asking a question. At 4th of Juplaya, a sheriff drove up on us, with AK's, sawed off shotguns, an array of handguns, and you name it....and his only question was, "do you have you're fireworks permit?"
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Postby Token » Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:54 pm

TomServo wrote:So where's the info on permits, for non placed camps? We go through BMORG?

Never ran a bar of my own...


http://health.nv.gov/PDFs/BFHS/TempFood ... elines.pdf
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Postby Eric » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:02 pm

domitron wrote:And believe me with the passive attitudes I see here, so willing to bend over to be fucked a little harder, that day is coming.


Remind me not to eat what you're serving. If you think a normal reaction concerning the very real possibility of food poisoning (which has happened on the real playa, if not the wonderland in your head) is bending over to get fucked, then you have serious issues beyond this.

You also, apparently, haven't been fucked by anyone with talent.
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Postby TomServo » Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:55 pm

Token wrote:
TomServo wrote:So where's the info on permits, for non placed camps? We go through BMORG?

Never ran a bar of my own...


http://health.nv.gov/PDFs/BFHS/TempFood ... elines.pdf


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Postby geekster » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:04 am

Those rules are not BMOG rules, those are rules imposed by the local authorities. Look, BM does not happen on Mars. It happens in Nevada. Nevada has laws that still apply to BM. You might not like it but there it is. A caterer that works birthday parties and corporate lunches must be inspected, too.

Basically, if you are providing food for people, you are a caterer. You might be doing it for free, but you are still catering to people.

But as long as they don't inspect the gray ice machine, I will be fine. Hey, you have to get rid of that shower water somehow!
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Postby domitron » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:26 am

Eric wrote:
domitron wrote:And believe me with the passive attitudes I see here, so willing to bend over to be fucked a little harder, that day is coming.


Remind me not to eat what you're serving. If you think a normal reaction concerning the very real possibility of food poisoning (which has happened on the real playa, if not the wonderland in your head) is bending over to get fucked, then you have serious issues beyond this.

You also, apparently, haven't been fucked by anyone with talent.


Eric, that last line was pretty good. ;) HA! Seriously, though, I am not serving food to the public. I have gifted cookies and dried items before, but these were not the wet or very moist kind that even _could_ support bacterial blooms. Further I'm pretty fanatical about keeping things very cool anyway.

I know food poisoning is like hell on earth. My ex suffered from a bout of it one night, and watching her was horrific enough to make me realize that it must be the equivalent of torture. I honestly wanted to take her into the hospital, but she didn't want to go. It scared the crap out of me, and I wasn't even the one who was vomiting constantly and shitting diarrhea at the same time for hours and hours.

No matter how horrific food poisoning is, though, unfortunately I don't think the permits are going to help. I wish they did, but like many laws, this one is there to more or less make people feel safe without any scientific proof it works. I mean if the guy has a permit then he's somehow "sanctioned" right? No. They just signed something that probably was at best skimmed over. It's like those messages at the airport "due to increased security... blah blah blah". There hasn't been any increased security at airports for years! The last increase was what - the shoe bomb dude or something, right? Those messages are just lullabies to help people with their media-induced fears--after all many walk around in a state of perpetual fear nowadays apparently. That's why those message are said over and over and over at an interval that is far far more frequent than necessary, just like a mother sings to her child to put him or her at ease at night so he or she may fall asleep peacefully, and these permits are the same, lullabies to help people not be so scared of being food poisoned. The only truly legitimate purpose of these permits is as a vehicle to bring some small money into the state via the fees.
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Postby domitron » Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:38 am

geekster wrote:Those rules are not BMOG rules, those are rules imposed by the local authorities. Look, BM does not happen on Mars. It happens in Nevada. Nevada has laws that still apply to BM. You might not like it but there it is. A caterer that works birthday parties and corporate lunches must be inspected, too.

Basically, if you are providing food for people, you are a caterer. You might be doing it for free, but you are still catering to people.

But as long as they don't inspect the gray ice machine, I will be fine. Hey, you have to get rid of that shower water somehow!


Geekster, there is one very critical difference between a caterer and a burner. A caterer is doing something to make money. That is, his or her motive is selfish by nature. A burner who is preparing food for other burners is doing so with the intent of gifting. The chances of a caterer being careless are considerably higher than a burner.

You know now that I think of it, though, this brings up a good point. What is happening at burning man is so novel--people just giving stuff away to total strangers on such a huge scale--that what I might be seeing is more or less a crack in the conceptual framework of our society's laws. Basically the laws cannot cope logically with this situation because it is not supposed to exist, and therefore, the closest sized peg is just shoved in the closest fitting hole. In this case it makes no sense to me, but it's the best the laws can provide.

But I would have chosen a different hole because the way I see the food gifting at Burning Man is closer to big pot luck dinner at a church or the like. The participants of these are not regulated by such permits, which is sort of why I think it is odd that food gifting should be. Burning Man to me is a large family or social organization, and if I bring food to give, I am giving it as I would in this context, nothing like a vendor does.
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Postby geekster » Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:01 am

Geekster, there is one very critical difference between a caterer and a burner. A caterer is doing something to make money.


That is where you are mistaken. It is my understanding that state regulations make no distinction between a professional caterer and an amateur caterer. In this case amateur meaning one who does it for the love of it, it is not meant to be a reflection of skill level.

I get that you might not like the fact that many federal state and local regulations still apply on the playa but they do. First of all, the event is on federal property. Secondly, state regulations apply to food being given to the public whether that is for money or not.

A big pot luck dinner is different. You can have a pot luck on the playa without a permit because you aren't providing the food. A church kitchen that makes meals for a town event DOES have to get inspected.

Not liking a regulation doesn't mean you don't have to follow it. You don't get to decide. If you get caught, it's your ass in a sling. If someone gets sick and you didn't get inspected, you are in a heap of shit. Like it or not.
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Postby Zhust » Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:57 am

I get the different facets of this argument, and tend to side with domitron when it comes to Burning Man and permits.

I make granola that I bring just as I'm sure everyone makes something they bring along. And when I meet someone, I offer to share it. According to Nevada law, I must have a food service permit to do that. That part is stupid.

That said, I like to read the permits for their guidelines. The guidelines are often simple, and hit on a number of things that the uninformed person misses. The argument that you haven't been sick yet from something doesn't mean it's a safe practice.

Permits, contracts, agreements and the like all act as a surrogate to real trust. I bought my last car used without getting any kind of written agreement about it: specifically because I developed a rapport with the seller and trusted him. If I had no rapport, or didn't trust him, I wouldn't have bought the car that way.

So if I'm at Burning Man and hang out with someone for a few hours and they offer me the food they've been eating, I couldn't care less about a permit. But if I just walk into a camp and have no idea about their kitchen and they're serving chicken salad sandwiches, I'd be much less cavalier: I'd probably hang around and get to know them and get to know how they're preparing food. I would, however, be more inclined to eat a sandwich without getting to know them if they have a NV permit hanging there.

But I would _rather_ interact as humans in a personal way. The preference for "systemic trust" over "personal trust" is dividing us and foolish: either kind of trust can be falsified, and the systemic variety takes additional effort so it's a waste of time.

One of the big reasons I go to Burning Man is to get away from all the systemic trust we have. Money is just a systemically-trusted form of IOU, identification is a surrogate for "my name is", and a health permit says "this food is not toxic". When you strip all that away, you get the magic of Burning Man.
May your deeds return to you tenfold,
---Zhust, Curiosityist
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Zhust
 
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 1:46 pm
Location: Rochester, NY
Burning Since: 2004
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