My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby jinglez » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:28 pm

(((antiM ))), my love to you. if only i could carry your communities burden for a moment... i can only imagine the trauma but understand as I once was faced with with a harsh reality of a medic chopper landing near by as we dance around the effigy at alchemy 2008. your community is in our thoughts and our hearts as you face this dark hour. to be sure, your pain will be written on every temple from here to the playa... with out love there can be no loss

Burn long
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby AntiM » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:32 pm

The video is very deceptive. Please do not make judgements based on it. People WERE running after him, had hands on him and he slipped free. What does not show is the extreme heat of that fire. No one could have gotten closer than they did without risk of burning their lungs and dying on the spot. The firemen in the suits were moving as fast as possible... I was there, and I watched the footage. My brain saw two different things. It as so fast... easy to watch to watch it on a screen and say "I would have"... they did, they fucking did, it was not enough to stop someone hellbent on getting into that fire. The other firefighters were already pulling the truck forward. It never would have been enough, he died the moment he hit the flames.

Yes, he had taken a mind altering substance, one which is easy to miscalculate the dosage and effects, one which should not be taken in certain settings, one which is not readily available nor one which he could have been dosed with. Perhaps he intended death, or maybe the fire was mystically speaking to him, or he thought he could run through where there had been an arch. We will never know, and we do not need to know. He died in a tragic manner, it was horrifying for all who witnessed it, who dealt with the pain that night. Good people are torn up inside because they wanted to do more. You are right, you do not know. You will never know.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby AntiM » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:33 pm

Thank you jinglez. I will pass along your hugs.
we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . .
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby lucky420 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:41 pm

AntiM wrote:The video is very deceptive. Please do not make judgements based on it. People WERE running after him, had hands on him and he slipped free. What does not show is the extreme heat of that fire. No one could have gotten closer than they did without risk of burning their lungs and dying on the spot. The firemen in the suits were moving as fast as possible... I was there, and I watched the footage. My brain saw two different things. It as so fast... easy to watch to watch it on a screen and say "I would have"... they did, they fucking did, it was not enough to stop someone hellbent on getting into that fire. The other firefighters were already pulling the truck forward. It never would have been enough, he died the moment he hit the flames.

Yes, he had taken a mind altering substance, one which is easy to miscalculate the dosage and effects, one which should not be taken in certain settings, one which is not readily available nor one which he could have been dosed with. Perhaps he intended death, or maybe the fire was mystically speaking to him, or he thought he could run through where there had been an arch. We will never know, and we do not need to know. He died in a tragic manner, it was horrifying for all who witnessed it, who dealt with the pain that night. Good people are torn up inside because they wanted to do more. You are right, you do not know. You will never know.


And please take this as a reason to not armchair quarterback, conjecture, second guess, posture, etc. it boarders on gossip and really enoughs enough.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:48 pm

ygmir wrote:
Tiahaar wrote:?

theCryptofishist wrote:Jezuz Christ! Everybody can be all lovey dovey to Elliot* when he's suicidal and such total assholes when it's a stranger!
Seriously!
And that total assholism is one reason so many people commit suicide. they are so busy hiding their "shamefull" "freaky" thoughts that they don't reach out for help with them.


*Note. This has nothing to do with my thinking Elliot's a hopeless idiot.


I'm with you Tiahaar. I'm really hoping this is Fishy being inept at getting her point across, and not what it seems it could be.

No. What I'm trying to do is give props to someone I don't like for intensely personal reasons, for being open and honest about something as tabboo as depression and suicide. That was a couple of years ago, but I remember. He was the only person I remembered clearly for having depression, so I mentioned him--not "outing" him, he'd "outed" himself. So, I'm trying to swim a fine line.
So, we all sometimes get things and sometimes don't. Well, almost all.
(But he'd have me a passenger in my own life if I lay down and let the self-appointed helpers have their way.)
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Jul 14, 2014 4:49 pm

lucky420 wrote:
AntiM wrote:The video is very deceptive. Please do not make judgements based on it. People WERE running after him, had hands on him and he slipped free. What does not show is the extreme heat of that fire. No one could have gotten closer than they did without risk of burning their lungs and dying on the spot. The firemen in the suits were moving as fast as possible... I was there, and I watched the footage. My brain saw two different things. It as so fast... easy to watch to watch it on a screen and say "I would have"... they did, they fucking did, it was not enough to stop someone hellbent on getting into that fire. The other firefighters were already pulling the truck forward. It never would have been enough, he died the moment he hit the flames.

Yes, he had taken a mind altering substance, one which is easy to miscalculate the dosage and effects, one which should not be taken in certain settings, one which is not readily available nor one which he could have been dosed with. Perhaps he intended death, or maybe the fire was mystically speaking to him, or he thought he could run through where there had been an arch. We will never know, and we do not need to know. He died in a tragic manner, it was horrifying for all who witnessed it, who dealt with the pain that night. Good people are torn up inside because they wanted to do more. You are right, you do not know. You will never know.


And please take this as a reason to not armchair quarterback, conjecture, second guess, posture, etc. it boarders on gossip and really enoughs enough.

Yes, this.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby BBadger » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:38 pm

I was also there that night when the suicide happened, but did not witness it first hand. The fire was extremely intense, far hotter than any previous year. I was backed up well away from the fire when I was informed by a friend of what happened, and only then noticed the intense silence that enveloped the entire area as people learned of the act.

My heart goes out to the people who suffered the misfortune of witnessing the guy killing himself, to those who were traumatized by that event, to the police/fire officials who had to deal with the aftermath, and to everyone at the event who had sacrificed their time and and energy during the year to make this event possible. One person in my camp witnessed the suicide first-hand and was very traumatized by the event; his night was entirely ended, and we had to force him to come out in the morning to drink and eat. Other friends are also suffering from memories of friends they had lost. I am glad I didn't witness the death first-hand; it's not something anyone should see.

To anyone who thinks that there was negligence, poor planning, or a lack of dedication on part of the E11 committees, volunteers, or crews: you are talking out your ass. Nothing less than multiple rings of concertina wire would have stopped the guy, and quite frankly that shouldn't be necessary. We are friends with people on the fire perimeter crew and they sacrifice so much time and energy to ensure the safety of the people there. If they're not managing the fire itself, they are always watching the audience, never drink that night, and are on constant watch. One such friend was running past us after we were exiting the area to return to camp, visibly distraught, and told us that "he just ran past the fire perimeter!"

All I'm going to say about that asshole: your selfish spectacle hurt a lot of people, and I am happy and impressed that we were able to reorganize and continue the festival without further dignifying your terrible act.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby Martiansky » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:07 pm

:cry:
How very sad.

(((((AntiM))))) and all who were there or who knew him.
So the theme this year is like a giant camp out in the desert? With people bringing lots of shit from all over? uh.. -Marscrumbs
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby Dr. Dust » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:19 pm

Wait... someone deliberately ran into the fire at the E11 Burning Man event?

NO PUN INTENDED :coffee:

Dusty hugs,

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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby AntiM » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:25 pm

Dr. Dust wrote:Wait... someone deliberately ran into the fire at the E11 Burning Man event?

NO PUN INTENDED :coffee:

Dusty hugs,

Dr. Dust


Indeed. I think the Fox news link is posted in somewhere here.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby AntiM » Mon Jul 14, 2014 8:25 pm

Love you to pieces, BBadger. How is it we so rarely cross paths?
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby Captain Goddammit » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:14 pm

theCryptofishist wrote: someone I don't like for intensely personal reasons

Actually it's for stubborn and insanely ridiculous "reasons".
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby tummler » Mon Jul 14, 2014 9:24 pm

Nothing of substance to add, except deep empathy. To those who tried but were unable to stop what sounds like an inevitable tragic outcome, I hope you can find ease and self-forgiveness (if you are holding any guilt or self-blame).

To those across the Internet who feel this lends itself to an easy joke or dismissive post, I don't know what to say to you.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby ygmir » Mon Jul 14, 2014 11:37 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote: someone I don't like for intensely personal reasons

Actually it's for stubborn and insanely ridiculous "reasons".

.................
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby BBadger » Tue Jul 15, 2014 1:51 am

AntiM wrote:Love you to pieces, BBadger. How is it we so rarely cross paths?


We really must remedy that situation!
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby delle » Tue Jul 15, 2014 11:53 am

I saw the link for the video, and hesitated for about an hour before something inside me made me HAVE to look.

I'm really glad I did, actually, because it changed everything.

I lost a friend to suicide this week. Real suicide. Sad and despondent and helpless suicide. It came right out of left field and smacked me HARD, leaving me bruised and questioning ... much how anyone would feel when a loved one suddenly and without warning pulls the ultimate curtain.

I found myself watching the video a few times – just to make sure I was really seeing what I thought I was seeing: someone joyously and dancingly running into an inferno. The eyewitness accounts and his family's message clinched it, and a cloud was lifted. I no longer saw this as yet another terminally sad soul who just couldn't imagine going one more hour, nor as someone who had cooked up a plan to make the most grandiose exit possible, to the detriment of all who watched. It became a foolish, unpremeditated, mistake that was extremely unfortunate for a shit-ton of people, for alot of different reasons.

I guess my personal cloud lifted knowing that his loved ones no longer had to choke on the question of “Why” any further than “He made a really stupid move”. Stupid we can live with. We're not responsible for stupid.

I realize that this does nothing to heal those who were there, within view, and most especially those who were within reach and who were mandated with the responsibility of keeping people safe from the fire. They've been smacked with their own unexpected hard ball and those bruises likely go way deeper than we'll ever know.

To them I'd like to say: You're not responsible. You did whatever you could. How could you possibly have foreseen such an unexpected, manically driven act?
And most importantly: I'm so sorry you've been dealt this blow, and really feel for all you now have to process.

...and I'm betting that he'd say the same. I'm betting he feels very sorry indeed....
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby Isotopia » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:22 pm

My personal experience is that sentiments posted to Facebook are cheapened by the need of others there to hurl their pathetic displays of insolence, indignity, contempt and insensitivity towards others for (seemingly) no other reason than the act of doing it.

You will not find comfort in Facebook. You will not find answers in Facebook. You most likely will not find healing or closure around this horrific episode in Facebook.

Conveyance of genuine sympathy, support and community is probably better done through a general statement of support in other venues. Face to face, one-on-one, letters or even a telephone call to people you know (or suspect) have been directly traumatized by this sad, tragic episode.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby BeeWeeDee » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:23 pm

BBadger wrote:
AntiM wrote:Love you to pieces, BBadger. How is it we so rarely cross paths?


We really must remedy that situation!



+1

My initial reaction was, "Why are the firemen pouring water on the burn so soon after it was lit?"

Then the flash of information swept through the crowd! Someone ran into the fire!

This fire was far too hot for an amateur attempt at walking on coals but this was self immolation. Rationalizing the events wouldn't occur and then there was silence.

A corridor formed and sirens wailed and lights strobed and the silence prevailed.

Enough of the grizzly spectacle and not wanting to be a gawking onlooker I left for the tipi on the hill where I sat under the full moon and watched people hug in silence and meander into dark campsites. Why?

The silence was eventually broken by music, the dawn, birds, and life. I was alive and another day was mine. Why?
The next morning you will wake up pretty much your old self except that a very unusual 16 hours will have been added to your store of life experience.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby goathead » Tue Jul 15, 2014 3:34 pm

if there is a question with no answer, why ask why?

I try to understand, and take a point of view, to try to understand. In the end a lot of times there is no answer.

But I still try to understand.
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No answers to some of the great pressing questions...

Postby Isotopia » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:18 pm

I once asked a question that seemed to have no answer. No rational. No explanation.

When asking my very astute friend quoted me this paragraph verbatim by the author Barry Lopez. I've never forgotten it.


“How is one to live a moral and compassionate existence when one is fully aware of the blood, the horror inherent in life, when one finds darkness not only in one’s culture but within oneself? If there is a stage at which an individual life becomes truly adult, it must be when one grasps the irony in its unfolding and accepts responsibility for a life lived in the midst of such paradox. One must live in the middle of contradiction, because if all contradiction were eliminated at once life would collapse. There are simply no answers to some of the great pressing questions. You continue to live them out, making your life a worthy expression of leaning into the light.”
― Barry López
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Re: No answers to some of the great pressing questions...

Postby goathead » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:35 pm

Isotopia wrote:I once asked a question that seemed to have no answer. No rational. No explanation.

When asking my very astute friend quoted me this paragraph verbatim by the author Barry Lopez. I've never forgotten it.


“How is one to live a moral and compassionate existence when one is fully aware of the blood, the horror inherent in life, when one finds darkness not only in one’s culture but within oneself? If there is a stage at which an individual life becomes truly adult, it must be when one grasps the irony in its unfolding and accepts responsibility for a life lived in the midst of such paradox. One must live in the middle of contradiction, because if all contradiction were eliminated at once life would collapse. There are simply no answers to some of the great pressing questions. You continue to live them out, making your life a worthy expression of leaning into the light.”
― Barry López


and yes it does wash off, and if you watch and the water flow as such, a slight whirlpool takes it down the drain.
I know what Deb sees, just decades older for me. Hell it wasn't the first time even. Just a civilian, Sailman has better stories.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby lothos 1162 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:12 pm

I wasn't there,but have been on numerous tragic events. I have seen people commit suicide. To this day some of the events I saw still haunt me,when I see the news. This person had a reason and we will never know.But he did manage to scar a lot of people for a very long time. This will take a long time for people to heal.Lothos
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby Fan C » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:27 pm

I haven't said anything before but having seen the video I can't imagine what could have been done much different by anyone. The inability to prevent a deliberate act like that is a risk in a truly free society. It's just sad all around.

Love to everyone affected. :cry:
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby The_Sheik » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:32 pm

In my 40+ year career as a cop and later a firefighter, I've seen a lot of fucked-up shit. Most of it you can put behind you with time, but a few of them get under your skin and stay there forever. I started my career long before anybody knew anything about PTSD, grief counseling, etc. We just talked about the bad calls later that shift, closed the page and moved on. Some of my coworkers turned to alcohol, a couple had heart attacks early in life, and several died of cancer at a young age. How much of this was stress caused, I will never know-I've been the lucky one,

For those of you whom this is your first experience with death, I would like to tell you it will all go away. It wont. Every day things will get better, but they will never be the same. If you are having issues, reach out for help. You don't have to do it alone. But never ever, ever tell somebody how they should feel, or shame them for their grief. For many, this won't be their only experience with an event like this in their lifetime. Embrace the hurting and share your feelings openly. It's the only way you will get through this.

Now, let's all lick our wounds, give each other a hug, and burn on.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby eltonbean » Wed Jul 16, 2014 6:59 am

Sermon with Bishop Loon:
"And ye, tho I walk in the shadow of death". Were these the last thoughts of our Element11 Christopher Wallace, as he ran into the fire that was built to burn down an effigy of a character from Where the Wild Things Are?. Some asked "was this an accident"? NO, surely not! - Was this not a man's, life's work?, his performance art and an act of Radical Self Expression entitled Burning Man! Don't let this artist's contribution go down as suicide, that would be such a waste of talent.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby GreyCoyote » Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:31 am

Art is a gift that generally gives something positive both to the observer and to the artist. I dont think anyone believes that exchange happened here. Perhaps some day there may be an unexpected silver lining, but right now its an awful cloud raining on everyone involved.

This is a tragedy. Not art.

No one knows the mind of the actor, so we may be better served by holding our friends close and letting this heal rather than indulging in public analysis.

We lost a brother in arms and by all accounts a good man. That is all we really know.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby Isotopia » Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:11 am

I only wish more people could incorporate this message into their psyche when it comes to loss. We're a culture so very afraid of death/tragedy/loss and its consequences we like to think everything is going to be right with the world. Given enough time things do get better But, well, the fellow from Texas has said it best..

For those of you whom this is your first experience with death, I would like to tell you it will all go away. It wont. Every day things will get better, but they will never be the same.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby Bless » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:29 am

He left behind a widow with health issues that prevent her from working full-time. This story keeps getting worse and worse.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby Fan C » Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:36 am

Bless wrote:He left behind a widow with health issues that prevent her from working full-time. This story keeps getting worse and worse.



Yup, that's a big part of why so many consider suicide to be utterly selfish. It isn't always but sometimes... well.
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Re: My heart goes out to Utah and the e11 burners tonight

Postby bigbluedoggy » Wed Jul 16, 2014 9:49 pm

Don't go complicating my reality with facts.

Destiny Lounge Returns for 2015! Are you ready for... The Vortex of Destiny?!?!
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