How not to use Kickstarter for your Project

Postby C187 » Fri May 27, 2011 4:50 pm

On a side note, regardless of what the project listed on KickStarter is for. Chance are the project creator doesn't need a message per hour about why you think the project is stupid or why you think the project creator is a faggot.

Also, the idea of all failing or failed projects on KS are douche projects may not be true. Some, sure. But some could of simply reached the end of the project creators influence sphere, and never generated momentum past it.

That's my two cents on the matter.
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Postby fbcota » Fri May 27, 2011 5:11 pm

There are allot of great projects on KS that failed to get funding. But there are some that were clearly money grabs. When you do the math on the costs sometimes they are simply unjustified. Sometimes, these money grabs aren't so misguided, some artists simply want to get paid for their work. However, getting paid for your work and making art for BM don't really mesh well.

And no, an artist should never get messages insulting them for trying to use KS. I guess I have had a pretty amazing experience using it, sorry to hear that others haven't.
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Postby Bob » Sat May 28, 2011 7:58 am

Is it really possible to make these kinds of 'starving artist' judgments based on a Kickstarter page? Do donors assume that any artist is too stupid to feed themselves? Does it help if the money recipient is a Famous Buhrnur? Are donors looking for good marketing, good projects, good artists, or just good places to drop acid?
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Postby fbcota » Sat May 28, 2011 10:15 am

Bob: Damn you are a troll!

Any reasonable person can look at a Kickstarter project and do a little math to see if the money is justified or not. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to crunch some numbers on a project and come up with a reasonable proximity to their actual working budget.

No shit fame and stature help! Kickstarter is not devoid of real world rules. I guess you would have to be pretty dense to even suggest otherwise. A great idea needs to be seen before it can get support. Kickstarter is a tool, and the success of its usage is in how the artist leverages it.

As far as wealth and ignorance go, I made my choice to pursue what I love to do. You can try to label me a moron as much as you like. I wouldn't trade the last 2 years of my life for all the wealth in the world. Making a life built around art is not easy, you have to sacrifice a lot of comfort to live, but if you can do it right you can find a life that most kings are envious of.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sat May 28, 2011 3:08 pm

fbcota wrote:Any reasonable person can look at a Kickstarter project and do a little math to see if the money is justified or not. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to crunch some numbers on a project and come up with a reasonable proximity to their actual working budget.

I'm not sure about that. We get all sorts of people on the boards telling us that Larry must be living in a mansion with an entourage of a dozen beautiful women to fulfill his every whim based on the ticket money and I can't see how they get that.
Yeah, I know "reasonable" person.
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Postby C187 » Sat May 28, 2011 4:45 pm

fbcota wrote:Any reasonable person can look at a Kickstarter project and do a little math to see if the money is justified or not. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to crunch some numbers on a project and come up with a reasonable proximity to their actual working budget.


Although sometimes budgets are higher then even the project creator ever imagined. Let us not forget that someones local market, and thus value of items might range drastically then our own. Or that the items you would buy for a project might not be the same as budgeted by the project creator. Also remember that KS takes 5%, and the payment service takes up to 5%.

When in doubt if it's a money grab or not, you could always ask to see the spread sheet. I'd wager that most creators would have had one long before they posted a project up. After all, doesn't KS highly suggest one before lunching a project?
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Postby Elderberry » Sat May 28, 2011 5:37 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
fbcota wrote:Any reasonable person can look at a Kickstarter project and do a little math to see if the money is justified or not. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to crunch some numbers on a project and come up with a reasonable proximity to their actual working budget.

I'm not sure about that. We get all sorts of people on the boards telling us that Larry must be living in a mansion with an entourage of a dozen beautiful women to fulfill his every whim based on the ticket money and I can't see how they get that.
Yeah, I know "reasonable" person.

Now that's another topic entirely. If he isn't living well from the event then there's really something wrong. If the event is as great as everyone usually professes it to be, then the founder/owner deserves to reap the reward.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sat May 28, 2011 6:47 pm

jkisha wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
fbcota wrote:Any reasonable person can look at a Kickstarter project and do a little math to see if the money is justified or not. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to crunch some numbers on a project and come up with a reasonable proximity to their actual working budget.

I'm not sure about that. We get all sorts of people on the boards telling us that Larry must be living in a mansion with an entourage of a dozen beautiful women to fulfill his every whim based on the ticket money and I can't see how they get that.
Yeah, I know "reasonable" person.

Now that's another topic entirely. If he isn't living well from the event then there's really something wrong. If the event is as great as everyone usually professes it to be, then the founder/owner deserves to reap the reward.

I agree, with the question of if there were other people who contributed significantly to the shape of the event and didn't get rewarded left open. It's just that some people seem to think he gets 25% of every ticket or something.
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Postby Clar-i-ty » Sat May 28, 2011 10:22 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
jkisha wrote:
C.f.M. wrote:
jkisha wrote:
fbcota wrote:Does KS match the ethos of the Burn? I'm not really sure. But its helping me make rad art, and if it makes anyone feel better I am still starving :P.

Knowing you're starving doesn't make me feel better. It's sad that artists have to starve to create.


Not at all, the pain and misery stokes the soul-fire of creativity. Who's fat and happy and making good art?

Creative people will be creative whether they are rich or poor. The main reason they are poor is that society does not value art and its contribution to humanity.

An artist starving and in pain will often produce depressing art.


JK's right. We have this "suffering artist" meme in the culture, probably going back to the Romantics, but it's a crock. Not that suffering art isn't worthy or interesting, it's just not the only kind. I offer Caulder. I don't know about his personal life, but his art is wonderful and a lot of fun and I don't see that angst that we are conditioned to look for.


Funny thing. That's why I finally quit the poetry slam scene. I didn't seem to have enough angst in my life to be considered a real poet.

Of course in response I wrote my signature piece entitled, Fuck Poetry.
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Postby delle » Sun May 29, 2011 6:48 am

I have to admit that the hardest aspect of Eplaya I've had to swallow so far has been its reaction to Kickstarter projects.

What I've gleaned so far from this is:

1. If you don't have your own money -- don't even consider pitching an idea.

2. ....unless you can raise all the money on your own (wth the important stipulation that you somehow get it from someplace other than Eplayans, because NO -- you can neither sell nor promote your talent in here to fund your idea).

To me, this places a completely ridiculous restriction on creativity and a huge (if not impossible) burden on the creator.

Further, and to me, most importantly, it removes the possiblity of the non-creative pleb (such as myself) of participating in something that could have been great. Frankly I find the "be self reliant" cry of some ppl here kind of disgusting. Money is just one aspect of a project. Starting a kickstarter project -- INVITING people who can't otherwise help out physically to be involved in some way -- IS, in my opinion, being proactive. I'm a person of few means, but I'm proud to be able to be involved in the only way I can, however small.

.....until the project is shot down, and because the creator doesn't have balls of steel and a kevlar-coated heart, the project is cancelled.

I mean -- how hard is it really, if you don't like a project, to just shut the fuck up and move on, without having to destroy the spirit of the person trying to create something important to them?

It just seems so contrary to what I thought it was all about.
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Postby Elderberry » Sun May 29, 2011 7:47 am

delle wrote:I have to admit that the hardest aspect of Eplaya I've had to swallow so far has been its reaction to Kickstarter projects.

What I've gleaned so far from this is:

1. If you don't have your own money -- don't even consider pitching an idea.

2. ....unless you can raise all the money on your own (wth the important stipulation that you somehow get it from someplace other than Eplayans, because NO -- you can neither sell nor promote your talent in here to fund your idea).

To me, this places a completely ridiculous restriction on creativity and a huge (if not impossible) burden on the creator.

Further, and to me, most importantly, it removes the possiblity of the non-creative pleb (such as myself) of participating in something that could have been great. Frankly I find the "be self reliant" cry of some ppl here kind of disgusting. Money is just one aspect of a project. Starting a kickstarter project -- INVITING people who can't otherwise help out physically to be involved in some way -- IS, in my opinion, being proactive. I'm a person of few means, but I'm proud to be able to be involved in the only way I can, however small.

.....until the project is shot down, and because the creator doesn't have balls of steel and a kevlar-coated heart, the project is cancelled.

I mean -- how hard is it really, if you don't like a project, to just shut the fuck up and move on, without having to destroy the spirit of the person trying to create something important to them?

It just seems so contrary to what I thought it was all about.


I think your gleaning is incorrect.

Personally speaking, I think Kickstarter is a wonderful new way for artists to find funding for their art projects.

Where I have a problem is with the definition of what is now considered an "art project" done for the benefit and enjoyment of the community and just something someone wants to do primarily more for personal benefit and gain.

Many projects now appearing on kickstarter would never have been considered as a public art project.
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Postby graidawg » Sun May 29, 2011 8:37 am

delle wrote:I have to admit that the hardest aspect of Eplaya I've had to swallow so far has been its reaction to Kickstarter projects.

What I've gleaned so far from this is:

1. If you don't have your own money -- don't even consider pitching an idea.

2. ....unless you can raise all the money on your own (wth the important stipulation that you somehow get it from someplace other than Eplayans, because NO -- you can neither sell nor promote your talent in here to fund your idea).

To me, this places a completely ridiculous restriction on creativity and a huge (if not impossible) burden on the creator.

Further, and to me, most importantly, it removes the possiblity of the non-creative pleb (such as myself) of participating in something that could have been great. Frankly I find the "be self reliant" cry of some ppl here kind of disgusting. Money is just one aspect of a project. Starting a kickstarter project -- INVITING people who can't otherwise help out physically to be involved in some way -- IS, in my opinion, being proactive. I'm a person of few means, but I'm proud to be able to be involved in the only way I can, however small.

.....until the project is shot down, and because the creator doesn't have balls of steel and a kevlar-coated heart, the project is cancelled.

I mean -- how hard is it really, if you don't like a project, to just shut the fuck up and move on, without having to destroy the spirit of the person trying to create something important to them?

It just seems so contrary to what I thought it was all about.


+all of the points i have got so far (37) I totally agree, i consider myself to be totally without artistic talent and find the igdea of shooting someone down because you disagre with them, here on eplaya 'burning man for the other 51 weeks' to be as about un inclusive as you can get. Eplaya has a tendancy to be its on judge and jury, you need to put in th hours to be allowed an opinion or to exprese it without being told 'you dont get it'

Well here's my take - you build a city in the desert. Invite everyone, you even set up a system so as to make it so the less well off can get there, and everybody seems to help (gift, miracle, low income scholarship tickets- name another festival that does that). Make it so as to be as broad a spectrum event as possible - call it an art festival (after all everything is art). now you take away buying things so everyone is encouraged to help each other. remember its in the desert to make it more harsh.

then somebody decides 'thats not burning man' and tries to say 'you cant do that'

50,000 people (probably 60,000 or more this year) and as many different opinions of what BM and BRC is if some of them want to pay for another sound camp, or whatever some artist is trying to get funding/assitance with let them 'don't mess with someone else's burn'

I understand the no commerce rule here - if we didnt have that rule this place would be an even bigger cess pit, it's hard enough for our mods and admins to police as it is. however just because it's not allowed here DO NOT think you have to judge what other people do elsewhere to make more of BM for them if you dont like it don't look. dont judge and certainly dont be abusive or you are no better than the frat boy yahoo's you look down your nose at

Burning man is about being more than you are in defaultia, making others more than they are and if you can bringing it into your year round life.

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Postby delle » Sun May 29, 2011 9:53 am

graidawg wrote: Burning man is about being more than you are in defaultia, making others more than they are and if you can bringing it into your year round life.


This is the ultimate kicker for me.

I hear over and over how "Eplaya is NOT The Playa". For those of us who have yet to know the actual playa though, it's all we've got.

....and is sometimes not the best advertisement there is for a loving, inclusive, supportive HOME we're meant to yearn for.

(Which is not to say that there aren't moments -- LOTS OF THEM -- of absolutely golden support and caring)

The inconsistencies just boggle the mind sometimes.


(edited to add the missing positive, which was sorely lacking)
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Postby Elderberry » Sun May 29, 2011 10:40 am

delle wrote:
graidawg wrote: Burning man is about being more than you are in defaultia, making others more than they are and if you can bringing it into your year round life.


This is the ultimate kicker for me.

I hear over and over how "Eplaya is NOT The Playa". For those of us who have yet to know the actual playa though, it's all we've got.

....and is sometimes not the best advertisement there is for a loving, inclusive, supportive HOME we're meant to yearn for.

(Which is not to say that there aren't moments -- LOTS OF THEM -- of absolutely golden support and caring)

The inconsistencies just boggle the mind sometimes.


(edited to add the missing positive, which was sorely lacking)


That's because you have all of these preconceived notions of what burning man is. And, for all that it is, and it is a lot of things to a lot of people, myself included; it is still just a week long camping trip in the desert.
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Postby graidawg » Sun May 29, 2011 12:34 pm

jkisha wrote:
delle wrote:
graidawg wrote: Burning man is about being more than you are in defaultia, making others more than they are and if you can bringing it into your year round life.


This is the ultimate kicker for me.

I hear over and over how "Eplaya is NOT The Playa". For those of us who have yet to know the actual playa though, it's all we've got.

....and is sometimes not the best advertisement there is for a loving, inclusive, supportive HOME we're meant to yearn for.

(Which is not to say that there aren't moments -- LOTS OF THEM -- of absolutely golden support and caring)

The inconsistencies just boggle the mind sometimes.


(edited to add the missing positive, which was sorely lacking)


That's because you have all of these preconceived notions of what burning man is. And, for all that it is, and it is a lot of things to a lot of people, myself included; it is still just a week long camping trip in the desert.


JK, if it's a lot of things to people, yourself included then by definition it Can't be 'just' a camping trip in the desert, so then get annoyed about how people get funding for there theme camps and art projects

Buuuut if it is 'just' a week long camping trip in the desert then there is nothing to be lost however people get funding or what they do with it.

of course it can go both ways thats the great thing about being human you can completely conflicting opinions on the same thing and justify it.

just like i can be a virgin burner and have opinions that are as valid as everyones burner, veteran or not interested bystander

My preconceived opinions of what burning man is are mostly because of this forum, the FUCK thread and how people reach out when it gets a bit much, teh eplaya fitness club, THE BAR! and so on and so forth so if my opinions are ill-conceived and groundless you and your fellow eplayan veterans are to blame, showing compassion at those who get it right, mocking those who get it wrong, putting up with the idiots who fuck it up because you have history with them.

so in summary after my long and rambling retort i will do as so many other threads so to do when you dissagree with someone

fuck you and fuck your day! :wink:
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Postby Elderberry » Sun May 29, 2011 2:56 pm

OK whatever you say. :)
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sun May 29, 2011 6:28 pm

Are conversations about class in England more enlightening than those we have in the states? Over here we like to pretend that there are no class issues, and some of them we hide behind racial issues. It seems to me that in England there are many people who are not afraid to "own" the fact that they are members of a lower class. But I don't know, maybe that died in Maggie Thatcher's [s]reign of terror[/s] England.
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Postby graidawg » Sun May 29, 2011 11:15 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:Are conversations about class in England more enlightening than those we have in the states? Over here we like to pretend that there are no class issues, and some of them we hide behind racial issues. It seems to me that in England there are many people who are not afraid to "own" the fact that they are members of a lower class. But I don't know, maybe that died in Maggie Thatcher's [s]reign of terror[/s] England.


not really, sometimes its obvious but usually its bullshit.
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Postby Clar-i-ty » Sun May 29, 2011 11:41 pm

graidawg wrote:fuck you and fuck your day! :wink:


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Postby pinemom » Mon May 30, 2011 7:55 am

The only problem I have with Kickstarter is I sometimes feel bad because I cant kick in and help...why, cause we dont kick start the Bobby Bar, its all out of our pockets(All the BOOBARIANS) we kick in for the whole show to be pulled off without enlisting outside help.

So sometimes ...yes, I do wander why a bunch of broke peeps can get together figure out what its going to cost and then split it between us.

For artist doing it solo, yeah, thats hard. Unless your Harvey, you dont got that kinda chunk change on your dresser.
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Postby C.f.M. » Mon May 30, 2011 8:31 am

Freakers is totally the sort of thing Kickstarter is for.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1466918613/freaker-usamaking-you-and-your-beverage-cooler

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Postby fbcota » Wed Jun 01, 2011 1:03 am

Delle: Don't judge the Burn too much based on this forum. There is a special kind of snark that gets thrown around here. Its kinda like a boys locker room, except the boys have taken too many drugs and are just pretending they are snarky, when in the real world they are really very nice gentle people. And that is part of the root of the inconsistencies.

Every single person I have met from eplaya in real life have been a bit gruff, a bit socially awkward, and they are the people who are willing to help you build the world if you would like. Great, hard working, caring people who will call you names until you call them names back. Shit, that sounds a bit like Burning Man though,....

graidawg and delle: You both have never been but you already sound like burners to me :). Stand up to the grizzled assholes, have a smile and a hug ready for them. And if they don't like it then laugh and move on.

Kickstarter is rad. Its filled with great projects from great people of all walks of life. Its a tool that helps regular people find money to do fantastic things. It takes a bit of control away from big money interests by allowing smaller groups to leverage their numbers into the creation of things that match what they want, for their own damn reasons.
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Postby Mister Jellyfish Mister » Wed Jun 01, 2011 9:16 pm

I've done a couple Kickstarters now for Georgie Boy and last year's Ein Hammer project. It was just plain fun to watch them grow. So the crew and I toil away well before the event, sometimes hoping that the love and accolades we envision on the playa will manifest in lovely ways when we get the art there. In addition to words of encouragements or "likes" on a facebook page, we draw strength from community support. Sometimes we thrill to that extra motivation that comes in the form of a little package of cash on the doorstep. Then we also don't want to let those people down.

There will be as many bad Kickstarters as there are frat boys and shirt cockers. At least they don't piss on the playa.
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Postby oneeyeddick » Wed Jun 01, 2011 11:24 pm

I am thinking about having a Kickstarter to pay for Viagra for everyone participating in this year's Critical Dicks March.
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Postby MyDearFriend » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:39 pm

Bwahahahahaha, I just want to say, I have supported 9 burner projects, 8 of them are funded and, guess how many have come through with the "rewards' they promised for my support?








Yep! Zero!


:lol: :lol: :lol:

to be quite honest, one of them did say they would not be shipping until July...
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Postby Mister Jellyfish Mister » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:06 pm

Thanks MyDear. That must be frustrating so see your generosity get ignored like that. I'm pretty sure I delivered 100% of the rewards after last year's burn for the Ein Hammer Kickstarter. This year I sent an update to all contributors to our Georgie Boy project that rewards have been delayed but they can still expect to receive them before Burning Man.
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Postby MyDearFriend » Tue Jun 14, 2011 3:49 am

Oh I just think it's funny. 8) I am totally in favor of everybody putting their best efforts toward actually making their projects happen. 8)

It just seems hilarious to me that the grandiose level of confidence required to put these big projects together also extends to the rewards promised....

...so everybody gets a share, huh? :P
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Postby Mister Jellyfish Mister » Tue Jun 14, 2011 6:40 am

MyDearFriend wrote:Oh I just think it's funny. 8) I am totally in favor of everybody putting their best efforts toward actually making their projects happen. 8)

It just seems hilarious to me that the grandiose level of confidence required to put these big projects together also extends to the rewards promised....

...so everybody gets a share, huh? :P


Yeah, best laid plans, eh? I've thought about delegating the rewards tasks to one of our trusted crew members, but that would entail handing them my credit card for many of the purchases like t-shirt orders etc. hence I just want to do it myself so any mistakes with money are on me.

The handling of money in general is where I hear about most mistakes being made by artists seeking funds. The saddest stories are of hard-working crews that bust their asses to put on a successful fund raising event, then all of them understandably want to use the word "party" as a verb so they ask for "burner" volunteers to take money at the door only to discover at the end that a huge percentage of their proceeds got "misplaced". Build great art, brothers and sisters, but watch your bottom line!
Art cred: Georgie Boy 2011: www.mutantvehicle.com/georgie_boy.htm ; Ein Hammer 2010; Fluffer 2009; Zsu Zsu 2008; U-Me 2007; Mantis 2006; MiniMan and Pikes Of Paranoia 2005; Time Machine Mutant Vehicle 2004. www.MutantVehicle.com
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Postby fbcota » Tue Jun 14, 2011 4:18 pm

MyDearFreind: I think we should have our rewards in the mail by early July. My plan is just to have a "shipping party" and get the whole crew together to stuff envelopes, but our prizes are a lot simpler then most.
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Suggestions for Kickstarter?

Postby timmymusic » Sat Jun 18, 2011 2:47 am

I have a campaign underway now and it seems daunting that I am going to reach my goal; I tried Twitter, but I guess I don't have enough people following me or I completely fail to understand what the function of Twitter is, because I got scolded for Twittering to people that were not following me (but were found through a search germane to my project topic). And, then, of course, I've gently spammed my Facebook friends and have posted to a few community lists. I know everyone is busy, have to make their own ends, have kids, have their own projects, etc., etc. I think I set my goal in a reasonable range to accomplish what I want to do: set up 2-3 installations around BRC, including one mobile one. So, I'm a little baffled about what to do from here on out. Anyone with experience have any constructive comments or suggestions? I'm still a little confused about Kickstarter. They just put up a site that lists projects and I have to market it and they take a fee? Seems like they would want to assist in the marketing of projects so they'd make more fees!

I'm posting on ePlaya to promote it too, not mentioning it except for my sig below (maybe ought to have sooner, but I have a sour taste from past postings and discussions on here; I know, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one and everyone has high speed internet!)
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