Reno we need Room to build an ART CAR

Postby JRoyale » Tue May 26, 2009 8:09 pm

duffdog wrote:The word "significant" is arbitrary and unenforceable unless clearly defined. And I bet that YOU are NOT the guy defining the terms set forth in the agreement. As such, I am not surprised at your futile attempt to find a backbone for your inherently weak argument. You would be better served by shortening your handle to "tool" instead of toolmaker. "Tool" more accurately describes your abilities.

I very much enjoyed your attempts to find fault with my reasoning in this thread. I'm flattered that you took so much time and effort to attempt to form a coherent thought on my behalf! :lol: If this forum had online cookies or stickers, I would give you one!


So, you really don't get Burning Man, I see. It's a private event, so it can be as arbitrary as it wants to be. If you don't like that fact, don't come. That said, we typically bend over backwards to avoid being so, however, assholes and friends of assholes don't get nearly as much slack as nice people having a bad day.

As for enforcement, once you've exhausted the patience of the Rangers, things happen very quickly. Honestly, you should avoid that.

Regardless, I'm not really interested in having a conversation with you. You're an asshole, and I have enough those in my life already and don't need anymore thank you very much, and your not a Mutant Vehicle owner, so I could really careless what you bring to the playa. In fact, I really do think Burning Man would be better off without you.

I am, however, interested in why White Rabbit allegedly permitted his MV to altered after his inspection last year. He does claim to know the rules, so it will be interesting to hear his side of the story. Given your loose cannon nature, it would probably be best to take this off line, so I do suggest he contact us at dmv@burningman.com instead of remaining here in an open forum where you continue to insist on sticking both feet in your mouth.
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Postby ygmir » Tue May 26, 2009 8:31 pm

ibdave wrote:
oneeyeddick wrote:
dj_john69 wrote: You fucking retards know who i am talking about. :D



Dave ?


I keep telling you Dave's not here...

Well I'm enjoying the show and eating Popcorn, Gulping Pepsi, sharpening my tools, ect......







Relax dumbdog, I'm a landscaper and I sharpen my tools all the time.. :roll: :roll: :roll:


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Postby Box Burner » Tue May 26, 2009 10:20 pm

hey toolmaker! better keep duffdog riled. He might actually gift you with that train horn. I know someone who has a trailer and could store it nearby. I bet there is a lot of col ways we could turn it into an art project for next year. :D
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Postby Toolmaker » Tue May 26, 2009 11:10 pm

Box Burner wrote:hey toolmaker! better keep duffdog riled. He might actually gift you with that train horn. I know someone who has a trailer and could store it nearby. I bet there is a lot of col ways we could turn it into an art project for next year. :D


That would be an awesome gift. I've never had a train horn. I don't think he realizes how much I would enjoy his threats if he acted on them. :) 6AM is a little late for me to get up though.. I would rather he come wake me sooner so I can be ready for sunrise. We could dance together with 70,000 watts and free breakfast. I'm just social engineering him to deliver my breakfast and wakeup call. I'm too lazy to bring an alarm clock this year.
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Postby oneeyeddick » Tue May 26, 2009 11:28 pm

Dammit Box, don't blow our cover like that.

I get dibs on whatever air source he is gonna use to make the airhorn work.

Daddy needs a new compressor, or better yet, another co2 tank.
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.
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Postby Toolmaker » Tue May 26, 2009 11:33 pm

oneeyeddick wrote:Dammit Box, don't blow our cover like that.

I get dibs on whatever air source he is gonna use to make the airhorn work.

Daddy needs a new compressor, or better yet, another co2 tank.


But I need it more... AND I am doing all the work here I might add.
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Postby oneeyeddick » Tue May 26, 2009 11:40 pm

OK , lets just settle this and attach it to Fishy's rig instead.
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Postby HeironymousJosch » Tue May 26, 2009 11:57 pm

duffdog wrote:
This guy's a jagov.


I would like to know what a Jagov is...and where you will be camping. That way us "jagov's" can drive by your camp with our 70,000 watt sound system at 6AM and let you know just how wonderful we think you are!


How about 70,000 watts of uncheck the "Disable BBCode in this post" instead.
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Postby HeironymousJosch » Wed May 27, 2009 12:04 am

duffdog wrote:
Toolmaker wrote:
duffdog wrote:
This guy's a jagov.


I would like to know what a Jagov is...and where you will be camping. That way us "jagov's" can drive by your camp with our 70,000 watt sound system at 6AM and let you know just how wonderful we think you are!


Just remember that the lack of rules that allow you to do that kind of shit also allow for tohers to get even. Don't get too upset if someone you piss off follows you back to your camp and returns the love. Since you can only drive walking speed its not to hard to follow you. OR Are you planning on speeding in our city while you act like an ass driving around camps with 70,000 watts. Aren't things that loud to be limited to certain areas.. say 2 and 10 oclock and deep playa? Maybe someone at DMV should reconsider your permit privilege?

And you fuckstiks wonder why nobody would offer you land. Think before you post when you come back with a new screename in a year or so. If you come to the playa with that attitude rest assured there are equally nasty folks to make sure you don't return. You will only get what you bring in return. Just try coming by where I camp at that hour with 70,000 watts.


I didn't know that your groups of friends personally owned BRC. And don't worry, we will wait until we are right outside of your window to turn it on, that way all your neighbors can be laughing their heads off when you piss all over yourself in the morning when your RV just about vibrates apart. Who knows, we may even offer to cook everyone else around you breakfast just to make sure that we are more popular than you are.

I will get what I bring in return? AWESOME!! I typically bring lots of attractive girls with me and lots of speakers and amplifiers. Does this mean I will get even MORE?!?!-- I'm starting to like your philosophy! Do you have any other tips for me?


Okay, the gigs up. This has to be a joke. This drivel has to be put on. Has this been revealed as a sweet prank yet? I haven't followed this thread in a couple of weeks. No way this level of asshattery is for real.
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Postby SilverOrange » Wed May 27, 2009 5:54 am

HeironymousJosch wrote:Okay, the gigs up. This has to be a joke. This drivel has to be put on. Has this been revealed as a sweet prank yet? I haven't followed this thread in a couple of weeks. No way this level of asshattery is for real.


Actually HJ, I think this is just a clash between two schools of thought out on the playa. One being that BM is the best party EVER (with topless young chicks) and I can do whatever the fuck I want. The other being BM as a community with art, music, fire, topless young chicks and I can do whatever the fuck I want (as long as I'm respectful to others). It's different things to different people and some people get more out of it than others. I'm not trying to make peace here though. I'm enjoying my view of the train wreck.
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Postby ibdave » Wed May 27, 2009 5:59 am

SilverOrange wrote:
HeironymousJosch wrote:Okay, the gigs up. This has to be a joke. This drivel has to be put on. Has this been revealed as a sweet prank yet? I haven't followed this thread in a couple of weeks. No way this level of asshattery is for real.


Actually HJ, I think this is just a clash between two schools of thought out on the playa. One being that BM is the best party EVER (with topless young chicks) and I can do whatever the fuck I want. The other being BM as a community with art, music, fire, topless young chicks and I can do whatever the fuck I want (as long as I'm respectful to others). It's different things to different people and some people get more out of it than others. I'm not trying to make peace here though. I'm enjoying my view of the train wreck.


WINNER...


Now move on, nothing to see here.....



until duffdog shows up...... :shock: :shock: :shock:
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Postby oneeyeddick » Wed May 27, 2009 6:21 am

Today my balls are niether itching nor feeling like they are hot and on fire.

Dave....is that you man ?
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Postby Bounce530 » Wed May 27, 2009 8:12 am

oneeyeddick wrote:
I get dibs on whatever air source he is gonna use to make the airhorn work.

Daddy needs a new compressor, or better yet, another co2 tank.


My minitruckin' buddies have been putting train horns on their trucks for a while now. If its not plummed into the air suspension, you can use a Viair 380c compressor, with a 5 gal tank. PM me for a great train/air horn site. don't want to advertise it here, as to stay within the TOS. I say screw a train horn, I'm trying to track down a cruise ship horn!! (not for playa use though, of course)
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Postby ygmir » Wed May 27, 2009 8:26 am

Bounce530 wrote:
oneeyeddick wrote:
I get dibs on whatever air source he is gonna use to make the airhorn work.

Daddy needs a new compressor, or better yet, another co2 tank.


My minitruckin' buddies have been putting train horns on their trucks for a while now. If its not plummed into the air suspension, you can use a Viair 380c compressor, with a 5 gal tank. PM me for a great train/air horn site. don't want to advertise it here, as to stay within the TOS. I say screw a train horn, I'm trying to track down a cruise ship horn!! (not for playa use though, of course)


whatever became of good old air raid sirens? now, they're loud, and, electric, IIRC...........
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Postby Toolmaker » Wed May 27, 2009 9:14 am

ygmir wrote:
Bounce530 wrote:
oneeyeddick wrote:
I get dibs on whatever air source he is gonna use to make the airhorn work.

Daddy needs a new compressor, or better yet, another co2 tank.


My minitruckin' buddies have been putting train horns on their trucks for a while now. If its not plummed into the air suspension, you can use a Viair 380c compressor, with a 5 gal tank. PM me for a great train/air horn site. don't want to advertise it here, as to stay within the TOS. I say screw a train horn, I'm trying to track down a cruise ship horn!! (not for playa use though, of course)


whatever became of good old air raid sirens? now, they're loud, and, electric, IIRC...........


I think Dustdevil or one of his mates has one.. a really nice one.. it was used in Crude Awakening. I don't think the really sexy air raid sirens come cheap.
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Postby Token » Wed May 27, 2009 9:23 am

Toolmaker wrote:
ygmir wrote:
Bounce530 wrote:
oneeyeddick wrote:
I get dibs on whatever air source he is gonna use to make the airhorn work.

Daddy needs a new compressor, or better yet, another co2 tank.


My minitruckin' buddies have been putting train horns on their trucks for a while now. If its not plummed into the air suspension, you can use a Viair 380c compressor, with a 5 gal tank. PM me for a great train/air horn site. don't want to advertise it here, as to stay within the TOS. I say screw a train horn, I'm trying to track down a cruise ship horn!! (not for playa use though, of course)


whatever became of good old air raid sirens? now, they're loud, and, electric, IIRC...........


I think Dustdevil or one of his mates has one.. a really nice one.. it was used in Crude Awakening. I don't think the really sexy air raid sirens come cheap.


Indeed and they were powered by the venerable Hemi engine, not electric at all.

http://www.victorysiren.com/x/main.htm
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Postby MozyBonz » Wed May 27, 2009 9:43 am

Sorry but blowing a horn at someone is kinda…. I don’t know…Silly.

Seems to me this MV has become a BIG slow moving target.
Just remove the moving part…. just saying.

It really sucks when your u-bolts come up missing off the driveline while you were parked in deep playa showing off your sound system.
I know some one that removed a motor out of a VW while the guy was in the gas station. Hot Rodders they know too much about what makes your vehicle move… what are you going to do.
I’m not suggesting anything but this is Black Rock City piss off the wrong person and he will set fire to the man (or your MV) on Tuesday.

Just saying…
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed May 27, 2009 11:00 am

Okay, this has gotten well into the territory of TLTR.
(If anybody said somethign particularly witty, please make me aware of it.)

Has anybody suggested young gay men security? At least they would insure that the corpus of riders wouldn't be quite so banal.
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Postby Toolmaker » Wed May 27, 2009 11:32 am

Token wrote:
Toolmaker wrote:
ygmir wrote:
Bounce530 wrote:
oneeyeddick wrote:
I get dibs on whatever air source he is gonna use to make the airhorn work.

Daddy needs a new compressor, or better yet, another co2 tank.


My minitruckin' buddies have been putting train horns on their trucks for a while now. If its not plummed into the air suspension, you can use a Viair 380c compressor, with a 5 gal tank. PM me for a great train/air horn site. don't want to advertise it here, as to stay within the TOS. I say screw a train horn, I'm trying to track down a cruise ship horn!! (not for playa use though, of course)


whatever became of good old air raid sirens? now, they're loud, and, electric, IIRC...........


I think Dustdevil or one of his mates has one.. a really nice one.. it was used in Crude Awakening. I don't think the really sexy air raid sirens come cheap.


Indeed and they were powered by the venerable Hemi engine, not electric at all.

http://www.victorysiren.com/x/main.htm


5500 bucks back in 1952 and they weigh 5000 lbs.

WOW

Years of Manufacture:
194? - 1952
Manufacturer:
Chrysler Corporation
Power Plant:
Chrysler Industrial Engine Model IND-9
L-head 8 cylinder 4-cycle gasoline
323.5 cubic inch displacement
140 HP
Running speed 3000 RPM
Fuel tank, 18 gallons [more]
Compressor:
Two Stage Centrifugal Compressor
2500 cfm
5 PSI
Discharge Velocity 33,000 fpm (375 MPH)
Projectors:
Six
Sound Output:
137 dBC at 100 feet
Single Tone, 440 Hz
Size & Weight:
Assembly overall length 137 inches
Assembly overall width 55-3/8 inches
Assembly height 62-3/8 inches
Assembly height with exhaust 82 inches
Total weight 5,073 pounds


Years of Manufacture:
1952 - 1957
Manufacturer:
Marine and Industrial Division of the Chrysler Engine Division of the Chrysler Corporation of Trenton, Michigan
Power Plant:
Chrysler Industrial 20A 481 Engine
90 degree inclined V-8 4-cycle gasoline
331.1 cubic inch displacement
hemispherical cylinder heads
180 HP @ 4000 RPM
312 foot pounds torque @ 2000 RPM
7.5 to 1 compression ratio
Bore 3-13/16 inches / Stroke 3-5/8 inches
Dual Venturi downdraft carburetor
Stellite faced exhaust valves
Idle speed 650 RPM
Running speed 4600 RPM
Power Train:
13 inch Gyrol fluid coupling
11 inch friction type single plate, dry disc clutch
Compressor:
American Blower
Three stage centrifugal type compressor stiff shaft unit
43 inch OD cast iron housing
22-3/4 inch OD cast aluminum heat treated alloy impellers
Rated speed 4,600 RPM
Discharge volume 2,610 CFM
Discharge pressure 6.95 psig
Discharge velocity 35,000 fpm (400 MPH)
Projectors:
Six throated cast aluminum
Directional beam exponential type
Length 25-1/2 inches (group)
Height 37-1/2 inches (group)
Width 19 inches (group)
Sound Output:
138 dBC at 100 feet
Single Tone, 460 Hz
[ Coverage Area ]
Size & Weight:
Assembly overall length 135 inches
Assembly overall width 45 inches
Assembly height 62 inches
Assembly height with exhaust 71 inches
Total weight 5,543 pounds
Price:
$5,500.00 (1952)


So a few questions if anyone can answer them..

If there is an increase in horsepower via engine boring etc will this increase the 138db 30,000 watts significantly? I wonder what could be achieved with a 500HP engine. Those 50s engines while awesome as hell aren't quite as powerful as what we have to play with now. How would one change the pitch/tone? What would happen if the number of horns was reduced or increased?

What would I need to fabricate to make this work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Federal-Model-5-Civ ... 16702316QQ


I'm guessing from the design that this one doesn't use horns. Would I just have to frame the thing out and mount it so to speak with an air intake "funnel/cone" going in the top?

Image


Found these.. looks easy to make from scratch if one had the dimensions of the parts handy.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf1kY_TMISk[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNA8rvfZUZQ[/youtube]
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Postby MozyBonz » Wed May 27, 2009 11:59 am

theCryptofishist wrote:Okay, this has gotten well into the territory of TLTR.
(If anybody said somethign particularly witty, please make me aware of it.)

Has anybody suggested young gay men security? At least they would insure that the corpus of riders wouldn't be quite so banal.



TLTR??? Teaching Learning Technology Roundtable....that would be a good thing wouldn't it?
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed May 27, 2009 12:02 pm

Sorry.
Too long to read.
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Postby MozyBonz » Wed May 27, 2009 12:07 pm

Ha ha ha ha I forgot I had the whole house sound system including the outside speakers on loud when I played that u-tube tool posted. my neighbor across the street thought it was real just far away. hehe


hugs fishy~~
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Postby SilverOrange » Wed May 27, 2009 12:17 pm

Holy crap.
Image

Audio from five miles away.
http://www.victorysiren.com/x/wav/HB122803D.wav
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Postby thisisthatwhichis » Wed May 27, 2009 12:31 pm

I wonder if my Chrysler dealer will have that model in the new 2010 lineup..... 8)
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Postby ygmir » Wed May 27, 2009 12:44 pm

thisisthatwhichis wrote:I wonder if my Chrysler dealer will have that model in the new 2010 lineup..... 8)

yeah, but, it'll be a hybrid and you'll need headphones to hear it in the next room...........
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Postby Da Mule » Wed May 27, 2009 1:57 pm

Somebody told me I needed to come sniff around this thread - apparently some of my family has been here?
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Postby duffdog » Wed May 27, 2009 2:13 pm

So a few questions if anyone can answer them..

If there is an increase in horsepower via engine boring etc will this increase the 138db 30,000 watts significantly?


I actually had to do some work today, sorry to keep you waiting.

No, that design simply runs an air compressor that feeds rotating blades connected to external horns. Increasing the engine horsepower is equivalent to charging your air reservoir more quickly. If it were a rotational open frame horn, then increasing the power still won't do much except allow you to get up to operating speed faster. The transformation of rotational power to acoustic power is incredibly inefficient. On the order of less than .1% of the engines torque directly contributes to the actual volume of the device. The loudness of the device depends on several factors: One, the tolerance between the rotating blades and the inner surface of the stationary frame has a direct effect on the amount of wasted air that passes through the gap. Also, if the physical distance becomes to great, then the acoustic loading of the rotating blades will create excess drag on the rotor and high pressure zones localized near the holes on the frame can interfere with the production of sound. The output of a rotational siren is maximally limited to the physical air pressure gradients which can be created by slicing the air and causing vibration. If you go too fast, you can exceed the devices ability to slice the air and thus you will have a cavitation effect by creating alternating vacuum and 2atm zones. It is equivalent to overspinning your prop in a boat. Two, the actual pitch of the device and the physical horn design and size need to be synchronized and designed together to ensure that the resonant frequency of your device does not fall outside of the useful frequency cutoff of your horn. The equal-loudness curve dictates that the human ear is much more sensitive at 4000Hz than it is at 400Hz (the frequency of the chrysler siren)... So, if you were aiming to be as loud as possible, you would want to design a horn and siren system that operates at 4khz, then duplicate it as many times as necessary by combining the output of all the smaller horns into a much larger sectoral horn.

I wonder what could be achieved with a 500HP engine. Those 50s engines while awesome as hell aren't quite as powerful as what we have to play with now. How would one change the pitch/tone?


Make the horns smaller and the rotor spin faster.

What would happen if the number of horns was reduced or increased?


More horns= more air capacity needed to drive them=more horsepower needed=more loudness.

What would I need to fabricate to make this work?


My guess is lots of stuff.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Federal-Model-5-Civil-Defense-Air-Raid-Siren_W0QQi temZ260416702316QQ


I'm guessing from the design that this one doesn't use horns. Would I just have to frame the thing out and mount it so to speak with an air intake "funnel/cone" going in the top?


The funnel is to reduce the impact of stray air going back into the device instead of radiating out into the surrounding area. Plus, it is mildly shaped like a cylindrical wave radiating horn when placed near the ground plane. There could be some small acoustic loading effect from having a horn/funnel shape on the top.

The most current version of this rotating siren is found on 80's firetrucks. The tolerances are so close that the metal on the outside of the rotor actually scrapes the inside of the frame slightly. But they are loud.

Interestingly enough, the creation of loud sound is more easily accomplished by putting a horn in front of a speaker. Large horns attached to very powerful speakers can easily create more sound pressure than this ancient thing. In the 40's, this was probably the only way to generate any sort of tone louder than 120db-- not so nowadays.
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Wed May 27, 2009 4:18 pm

duffdog wrote:
So a few questions if anyone can answer them..

If there is an increase in horsepower via engine boring etc will this increase the 138db 30,000 watts significantly?


I actually had to do some work today, sorry to keep you waiting.

No, that design simply runs an air compressor that feeds rotating blades connected to external horns. Increasing the engine horsepower is equivalent to charging your air reservoir more quickly. If it were a rotational open frame horn, then increasing the power still won't do much except allow you to get up to operating speed faster. The transformation of rotational power to acoustic power is incredibly inefficient. On the order of less than .1% of the engines torque directly contributes to the actual volume of the device. The loudness of the device depends on several factors: One, the tolerance between the rotating blades and the inner surface of the stationary frame has a direct effect on the amount of wasted air that passes through the gap. Also, if the physical distance becomes to great, then the acoustic loading of the rotating blades will create excess drag on the rotor and high pressure zones localized near the holes on the frame can interfere with the production of sound. The output of a rotational siren is maximally limited to the physical air pressure gradients which can be created by slicing the air and causing vibration. If you go too fast, you can exceed the devices ability to slice the air and thus you will have a cavitation effect by creating alternating vacuum and 2atm zones. It is equivalent to overspinning your prop in a boat. Two, the actual pitch of the device and the physical horn design and size need to be synchronized and designed together to ensure that the resonant frequency of your device does not fall outside of the useful frequency cutoff of your horn. The equal-loudness curve dictates that the human ear is much more sensitive at 4000Hz than it is at 400Hz (the frequency of the chrysler siren)... So, if you were aiming to be as loud as possible, you would want to design a horn and siren system that operates at 4khz, then duplicate it as many times as necessary by combining the output of all the smaller horns into a much larger sectoral horn.

I wonder what could be achieved with a 500HP engine. Those 50s engines while awesome as hell aren't quite as powerful as what we have to play with now. How would one change the pitch/tone?


Make the horns smaller and the rotor spin faster.

What would happen if the number of horns was reduced or increased?


More horns= more air capacity needed to drive them=more horsepower needed=more loudness.

What would I need to fabricate to make this work?


My guess is lots of stuff.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Federal-Model-5-Civil-Defense-Air-Raid-Siren_W0QQi temZ260416702316QQ


I'm guessing from the design that this one doesn't use horns. Would I just have to frame the thing out and mount it so to speak with an air intake "funnel/cone" going in the top?


The funnel is to reduce the impact of stray air going back into the device instead of radiating out into the surrounding area. Plus, it is mildly shaped like a cylindrical wave radiating horn when placed near the ground plane. There could be some small acoustic loading effect from having a horn/funnel shape on the top.

The most current version of this rotating siren is found on 80's firetrucks. The tolerances are so close that the metal on the outside of the rotor actually scrapes the inside of the frame slightly. But they are loud.

Interestingly enough, the creation of loud sound is more easily accomplished by putting a horn in front of a speaker. Large horns attached to very powerful speakers can easily create more sound pressure than this ancient thing. In the 40's, this was probably the only way to generate any sort of tone louder than 120db-- not so nowadays.


Duffdog...that is 100% pure unadulterated audio porn, and I love it! you have many facets...

btw Toolmaker - you typically get a +6db increase for every doubling of the # of output devices...
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Postby Dustdevil » Wed May 27, 2009 4:43 pm

SilverOrange wrote:Holy crap.
Image

Audio from five miles away.
http://www.victorysiren.com/x/wav/HB122803D.wav


Some of you may or may be aware of this fact, but this IS the unit I used to announce the "destruction" of the Crude Awakening Tower. Listen for it this year 30 minutes before the Raygun Gothic Rockets launches into space. Friday night at 10:00 pm. It will be epic. The Victory Siren is a chunk of history. oaklandvictorysiren.com

Jack
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Postby dj_john69 » Wed May 27, 2009 5:11 pm

Dustdevil wrote:
SilverOrange wrote:Holy crap.
Image

Audio from five miles away.
http://www.victorysiren.com/x/wav/HB122803D.wav


Some of you may or may be aware of this fact, but this IS the unit I used to announce the "destruction" of the Crude Awakening Tower. Listen for it this year 30 minutes before the Raygun Gothic Rockets launches into space. Friday night at 10:00 pm. It will be epic. The Victory Siren is a chunk of history. oaklandvictorysiren.com

Jack


Ohhhhhhh, Raygun Gothic Rockets ?? What's that about ?? Any links to your project ?? Thanks.
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