peddled art car

Postby capjbadger » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:12 pm

Zulegoona wrote:So what about hydraulic power transfer that would be in effect using a motor but it seems to be more of a gray area.

Beautiful example. Wire = Electric power transfer. Chain = Mechanical power transfer. Hydraulic = Mechanical/Fluidic power transfer.

There is no difference outside of the type of energy.

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Postby capjbadger » Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:14 pm

gyre wrote:Solar counts as external power.
I imagine wind would, but who knows?

Far as I've read wind powered MV's have to go through DMV. Only "Human Powered" MV's get to skip them.

The wind/flywheel idea is just something cool I'd like to do. :)

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Postby ibdave » Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:37 pm

Here's an offer for someone, anyone, but just ONE Person..
I have a set of plans for a PVC Peddle bike/2 seater... I bought the plans and I'll mail them to someone if they want them. I will not send copies, but the original that were sent to me. I don't want to jip the guy out of $$.

Let me know..... 8) 8) 8)

http://www.americanspeedster.com/side-kick.htm

Due to the extra $$ for gas in the RV I'm not going to build.... :cry: :roll: :(
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Postby Rat Bastard » Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:47 pm

Has anyone contacted the DMV or the DMV list about this yet?

This year?

Outdated information is just that, outdated.

If it's all pedal powered, no problem. No DMV
If it can store energy in a battery, it does need DMV approval.

15' flywheel? Tell ya what, you build it and then ask.

Stop with the what ifs... Stick with the actual topic of pedal powered MVs needing DMV approval.

The answer is no, you don't have to go through the DMV no matter how radically modified your bike is. Yes, flame effects need a permit. Check the BM site for current procedures for approval.

Even pedal powered generators that drive an electric motor are still human powered. The source of the power is a human. If at anytime the vehicle can go without that human power, it's not human powered.

If any of these questions are not fully answered, fill out a DMV application and find out for real. It's not that tough. If it doesn't need their approval, they will send it back and let you know.

It's that simple.
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Postby capjbadger » Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:12 pm

Rat Bastard wrote:Even pedal powered generators that drive an electric motor are still human powered. The source of the power is a human. If at anytime the vehicle can go without that human power, it's not human powered.

I argee with you 100%. I still want to hear it from the horse's mouth though. Either DMV or BLM...

As far as flywheels, we already know for a fact that a human powered flywheel vehicle got to drive around sans DMV approval last year. :)

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Postby scootert » Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:48 pm

My understanding is that if it has a motor of any kind, it must be registered. It doesn't matter where the motor derives its power. If you pedal to charge a battery that powers a motor, it would require a license. Go pure pedal power without a motor and there's no licensing hassle/risk. Good luck!
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Postby TomServo » Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:52 pm

The DMV pages are not specific on this matter. Not surprising, considering their are alot of grey areas. We discussed these grey areas in orientation, and on the playa. While working, as a DMV hottie, I specifically asked about a motor assisted tricycle, that I owned at the time. Because it had a motor, and could be powered by the motor alone, it would need to be registered. If the vehicle has a motor, that can operate independently from the driver, it can potentially injure someone. Then, all the other safety and art car criteria must be approved for that vehicle. It would be best, to contact the DMV, and get a definitive answer. Hell, they may say it's ok, but give you a sticker anyway, to keep the BLM off your back.
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Postby capjbadger » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:04 am

scootert wrote:My understanding is that if it has a motor of any kind, it must be registered. It doesn't matter where the motor derives its power. If you pedal to charge a battery that powers a motor, it would require a license. Go pure pedal power without a motor and there's no licensing hassle/risk. Good luck!

To beat the dead horse a little more, there is NO battery involved. Period.
The vehicle will not move unless actively pedaled.

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Postby capjbadger » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:09 am

TomServo wrote:The DMV pages are not specific on this matter. Not surprising, considering their are alot of grey areas. We discussed these grey areas in orientation, and on the playa. While working, as a DMV hottie, I specifically asked about a motor assisted tricycle, that I owned at the time. Because it had a motor, and could be powered by the motor alone, it would need to be registered. If the vehicle has a motor, that can operate independently from the driver, it can potentially injure someone. Then, all the other safety and art car criteria must be approved for that vehicle. It would be best, to contact the DMV, and get a definitive answer. Hell, they may say it's ok, but give you a sticker anyway, to keep the BLM off your back.


Let's beat that poor horse some more.
The MV CANNOT move unless pedaled. Period. There is No runaway safety issue.

Tom, please give me either the name of the person at the DMV I can contact about this, or direct me to where I can read up on what the rules are that the BLM gave us.

All this guessing from people is just that at this point.

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Postby TomServo » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:13 am

well then, you have your answer
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..
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Postby Rat Bastard » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:31 am

http://tribes.tribe.net/bmmv/photos
Makes more sense if you start at the end! It has not only what's written on the BM site but has tons more. Any question you would most likely have is in there somewhere. It's 91 friggin pages that some DMV people took a lot of time to compile for everyones use as a resource for DMV questions.

Still have questions...
dmv@burningman.com If you want to email.

http://forms.burningman.com/dmvq2008
The "application". Better fill it out asap. Deadline is in 5 days.

I stand by my opinion. But do it anyway since your concerned.
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Postby capjbadger » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:44 am

TomServo wrote:well then, you have your answer

I can has context nao?
Your "answer" makes no sense Tom. :)

Rat Bastard wrote:http://tribes.tribe.net/bmmv/photos
Makes more sense if you start at the end! It has not only what's written on the BM site but has tons more. Any question you would most likely have is in there somewhere. It's 91 friggin pages that some DMV people took a lot of time to compile for everyones use as a resource for DMV questions.

Read that a few weeks ago. Cool, but didn't help much.

Rat Bastard wrote:Still have questions...
dmv@burningman.com If you want to email.

Now that is helpful. :)

Rat Bastard wrote:http://forms.burningman.com/dmvq2008
The "application". Better fill it out asap. Deadline is in 5 days.

I stand by my opinion. But do it anyway since your concerned.

App is already filled out and submitted. :)
While I respect you opinion, it's just that, an opinion. I need black and white facts. :)

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Postby TomServo » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:53 am

Do what you want...you want answers, but get pissy if it's the answer you don't like....I'm done with this! And it makes perfect sense..you answered your own question..too bad you can't see that
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Postby capjbadger » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:35 am

TomServo wrote:Do what you want...you want answers, but get pissy if it's the answer you don't like....I'm done with this! And it makes perfect sense..you answered your own question..too bad you can't see that

Wait.. what?? Pissy? You need to re-read and explain where you think I got pissy.
Tom, you haven't given any answers. You gave guesses. And your "example" of your trike doesn't apply to the question that I am asking.

I can't answer my own question because I'm not the one making the rules.
Try logic. It works.


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Postby MozyBonz » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:08 pm

So this is a working model?
you are able to generate enough power to move around with out a battery?
If not then its a mute point. it's just a theory.

The question remains if you can generate enough electric power for the MV.

Why wouldn't you use batteries?

My answer to that question is ~ It probably can't be done with out batteries so it make the debate longer with no real answer


Its kinda like the guy that brought back the chainsaw because he could cut wood faster with an ax.

When the sales man started the saw up to check it out.
The man said whats that sound.
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Postby gyre » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:18 pm

It can definitely be done.
It is no crazier than some of the weird bikes out there.
Not that that is saying much.
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Postby MozyBonz » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:25 pm

gyre wrote:It can definitely be done.


~Puts on Devil's Advocate hat~

Why?

Then prove it.
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Postby gyre » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:29 pm

MozyBonz wrote:
gyre wrote:It can definitely be done.


~Puts on Devil's Advocate hat~

Why?

Then prove it.
Why?
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Postby MozyBonz » Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:37 pm

gyre wrote:
MozyBonz wrote:
gyre wrote:It can definitely be done.


~Puts on Devil's Advocate hat~

Why?

Then prove it.
Why?


Well you could cut firewood with a chain saw without starting it…but why?
If you could generate enough electric power by peddle to move around the playa and not use a battery with it…but why?


Makes for a longer debate.
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Postby gyre » Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:10 pm

I haven't advised this approach.
I like power.

Sanity has never been a requirement for a playa device.
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Postby MozyBonz » Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:14 pm

gyre wrote:I haven't advised this approach.
I like power.

Sanity has never been a requirement for a playa device.


Very true.


capjbadger wrote:Try logic. It works.


I did and it did.
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Postby capjbadger » Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:17 pm

The Ship is a working thing. It however currently is not set up for human power, but it could be converted somewhat easily.

I know that this has been done and can be done. I've played with the idea using two driectly linked perm. magnet DC motors. The reason for the odd power transmission is due to the odd steering and drive wheel setup on this thing which prevents me from a more normal chain type drive.

While I would like to make this human powered, I want all the data before I go building all that. Plus it would mean not having to lug around 400lbs of batteries. Means more people can ride (and less gas hauling it up).

The logic comment wasn't directed at you Mozy. :)

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Postby MozyBonz » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:09 pm

capjbadger wrote:The Ship is a working thing. It however currently is not set up for human power, but it could be converted somewhat easily.

I know that this has been done and can be done. I've played with the idea using two driectly linked perm. magnet DC motors. The reason for the odd power transmission is due to the odd steering and drive wheel setup on this thing which prevents me from a more normal chain type drive.

While I would like to make this human powered, I want all the data before I go building all that. Plus it would mean not having to lug around 400lbs of batteries. Means more people can ride (and less gas hauling it up).

The logic comment wasn't directed at you Mozy. :)

Badger




I know just debating here.

This is still only a concept not a working model though.
The math does not add up on this for me.

So you have an ability to generate power for an electric motor large enough to move a 500lbs or larger load with one person pumping?
So this will only be used in the Day? No battery no lights.
So how do I know the light batteries can’t be used for power also?
What is the HP of the Motor?
What is the wattage of the power source?
And if some one is riding is there a chance of getting shocked by the power source?
Can this MV catch on fire if there is a short?
Can you put batteries in if you wanted/or need to?
Do you have batteries back at camp?
Do you have a patent on the power source where is you camp and when do you sleep at BM?

And if you could do this why wouldn’t you want it on the MV now to charge up the batteries you have now?

You see it my point.
The concept creates the question of “whyâ€
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Postby Rat Bastard » Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:32 pm

Hey Mozy, I thought you moved us off the "what ifs"?

I say register then do whatever you want.
Read my posts with a grain of salt.
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Postby capjbadger » Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:39 pm

I'll try to answer one by one to keep things clear. :)

This is still only a concept not a working model though.

Not just a concept. Vehicles of this same power setup have been run elsewhere.

The math does not add up on this for me.

I'm not sure which bit of math you are talking about.

So you have an ability to generate power for an electric motor large enough to move a 500lbs or larger load with one person pumping?

Yes. It won't be fast, but out there it doesn't need to be. :)

So this will only be used in the Day? No battery no lights.

All the lights are self contained solar setups separate from the drivetrain.

So how do I know the light batteries can’t be used for power also?

Well you could look at the wiring, or just know that a few AA's are not going to more that thing. :D

What is the HP of the Motor?


3hp, 12 peak hp, Etek motor. The Ship 1.0 easily moved under the power of a 2.5hp gas engine. The current gearing is 30:1.

What is the wattage of the power source?

Right now I have four 12v, 185AH deep cycle batteries. The system is running at 48volts right now. The motor runs on anything from 24 to 72 volts.

And if some one is riding is there a chance of getting shocked by the power source?

No. All the wires are inside the ship except for where they connect to the motor.

Can this MV catch on fire if there is a short?

In theory yes, which is why there are multiple fuses in the circuit and a fire extinguisher on board. The power is disconnected when I'm not there.

Can you put batteries in if you wanted/or need to?

Once it's converted over to the human power? No. I'd have to rebuild the whole motor control circuit.

Do you have batteries back at camp?

Huh? What kind of batteries?

Do you have a patent on the power source where is you camp and when do you sleep at BM?

A patent?? Of course not. It's just a perm. magnet motor.
Where is my camp? Why do you ask?

And if you could do this why wouldn’t you want it on the MV now to charge up the batteries you have now?

Beause this isn't for charging the batteries. The solar and wind is enough to charge the current system. Plus I've just got too many other things to do right now. ;)

I still don't understand your question of "Why". Why what?
What point are you driving at with those questions?

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Postby ibdave » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:05 pm

ibdave wrote:Here's an offer for someone, anyone, but just ONE Person..
I have a set of plans for a PVC Peddle bike/2 seater... I bought the plans and I'll mail them to someone if they want them. I will not send copies, but the original that were sent to me. I don't want to jip the guy out of $$.

Let me know..... 8) 8) 8)

http://www.americanspeedster.com/side-kick.htm

Due to the extra $$ for gas in the RV I'm not going to build.... :cry: :roll: :(

Mojo is getting the plans. I hope she has a great time with them.

Now back to the bickering at hand...
sheeeeeezzzzzzz get a room you two... 8) 8) 8)
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Postby MozyBonz » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:30 pm

Hehe shut up Dave go make sure that JezebelinHell and her girl friend doesn’t start with out us.



The think cap knows that I love him and I’m just poking fun with him.
Not just a concept. Vehicles of this same power setup have been run elsewhere.
Show me a link.

I'm not sure which bit of math you are talking about.
One person producing enough wattage to power a 2.5 hp motor



let me know how that works mojo. I was thinking of doing one also.
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Postby capjbadger » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:51 pm

MozyBonz wrote:The think cap knows that I love him and I’m just poking fun with him.

'Course I do. We're debating, not arguing. :)

Not just a concept. Vehicles of this same power setup have been run elsewhere.
Show me a link.

Still looking for the link of the vehicle. In another thread, Unjonharley said there there was a vehicle with this same type of drive system in the Kinetic sculpture races last year.

I'm not sure which bit of math you are talking about.
One person producing enough wattage to power a 2.5 hp motor

After digging around a bit, I've found that someone of my fitness level could easily pump out 150-250 watt/hour. With that and knowing that I can easily push the whole ship by hand, it' a safe bet that I can generate enough power to move it. Again, it's not going to be going fast or anything. ;)

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Postby Tiahaar » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:28 pm

Let's see...2.5hp 110VAC motor draws @ 1875 watts at full output. A 1/6 hp motor would use @ 125 watts.

As cited at Wiki..."The average "in-shape" cyclist can produce about 3 watts/kg for more than an hour (e.g., around 200 watts for a 70 kg rider), with top amateurs producing 5 watts/kg and elite athletes achieving 6 watts/kg for similar lengths of time." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-powered_transport


Check this thing out:
http://www.windstreampower.com/Human_Power_Generator.php

Guys (gals), yeah sure you could rig up a human-generator-to-drive-motor system, but for the love of motion expect to lose half your output to line losses and electric conversion inefficiencies, that would totally bite.
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Postby capjbadger » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:10 am

Tiahaar wrote:Let's see...2.5hp 110VAC motor draws @ 1875 watts at full output. A 1/6 hp motor would use @ 125 watts.

As cited at Wiki..."The average "in-shape" cyclist can produce about 3 watts/kg for more than an hour (e.g., around 200 watts for a 70 kg rider), with top amateurs producing 5 watts/kg and elite athletes achieving 6 watts/kg for similar lengths of time." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-powered_transport


Check this thing out:
http://www.windstreampower.com/Human_Power_Generator.php

Guys (gals), yeah sure you could rig up a human-generator-to-drive-motor system, but for the love of motion expect to lose half your output to line losses and electric conversion inefficiencies, that would totally bite.

Well first off this is a 24VDC motor.
3 watts/kg puts me at about 230 watts.

Hmm... I think what I'm going to have to do is rig some pedals on the generator and hook it directly to the motor on the ship and see if I can move it. :)

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