The Contraption 2.0

Postby Zorch » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:19 pm

I bow before the contraption...

...but quickly so i don't get run down lol

I love this thread! I hope I see this masterwork chugging around while I'm there
User avatar
Zorch
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:48 pm
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Burning Since: 2008
Camp Name: The Bomb Bay Tea Co.
8pod

Postby LeChatNoir » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:53 pm

AHAA HAA!!

Yeah, you better look out. You've got like 30... 40 mintues tops to get out of the way!!
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather
User avatar
LeChatNoir
 
Posts: 5885
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:52 am
Location: Louisville, Ky

Postby bigbluedoggy » Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:23 pm

oooh LC! Always exciting to see the work starting on your project! Congrats on the new lathe too... the parts look very pretty! Looking forward to the next installment!
Don't go complicating my reality with facts.

Destiny Lounge Returns for 2015! Are you ready for... The Vortex of Destiny?!?!
User avatar
bigbluedoggy
 
Posts: 1427
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:25 am
Location: Pasadena / Joshua Tree, CA
Burning Since: 2006
Camp Name: Destiny Lounge

Postby fciron » Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:38 pm

Aaaah, the cams make sense now.

Dropping to say Hi and let you know I'm here too.

:D
User avatar
fciron
 
Posts: 628
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:49 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Postby LeChatNoir » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:11 pm

AHA!! I see you made it over.

Good to know you're lurking about these parts. The more iron-mongers around here, the better.
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather
User avatar
LeChatNoir
 
Posts: 5885
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:52 am
Location: Louisville, Ky

Postby Das Bus » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:23 pm

Haven't stopped by in awhile, but glad to see you all working hard! : )
Medicated and Motivated!
User avatar
Das Bus
 
Posts: 397
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:17 am
Location: Bullhead City, AZ.

Postby LeChatNoir » Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:29 pm

Das Bus!!!

Good to see you peeking in around here.

Just wait until you see what I've been working on in the late evenings this week!!!

MWHAA HAA HAA!!!
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather
User avatar
LeChatNoir
 
Posts: 5885
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:52 am
Location: Louisville, Ky

Postby Captain Goddammit » Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:24 am

Out of curiosity (you know, that trait that is killing you) have you any wild guess how much water the steamer will need?
I suppose I could bring an extra barrel in case I find you all dried up this year, but any and all water on my rig is subject to hair washing use by the first mate!

Hey... I don't suppose the steam engine could be a way to burn up grey water, if it was strained to remove hard particles... ??
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."
Delle: Singularly we may be dysfunctional misfits, but together we're magic.
User avatar
Captain Goddammit
 
Posts: 6097
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:34 am
Location: Seattle, WA
Burning Since: 2000
Camp Name: First Camp

Postby fciron » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:54 am

I don't know about the consumption for LeChat's boiler but I do know that most of the hobby steam groups have long threads advocating rainwater or distilled water for use in steam engines.

Greywater would probably be a source for lots of boiler deposits.

Too Bad.
User avatar
fciron
 
Posts: 628
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:49 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Postby MozyBonz » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:15 am

I was thinking the same thing with the water storage on the contraption.



Actually it could use waste-water. What will happen is the soap will scale up in the coils. It is Very conmen on steam cleaners to scale up in the coils with soap and hard water. But they are running high amounts hours and high amounts of soap though the coils. And it can take a long time to build up the scale enough to plug the coil. The fix is to hook an acid pump and run acid though the coils to clean out the scale. Even if you don’t have any soap in the water. You can still get scaling due to hard water. Scaling varies depending on the coil martial and water Hardness. I would not run waste-water all the time but it would work in a pinch. I do think ice chest water would work great thou.

Distilled water is very aggressive on metallic parts we use a sacrificial anode, or sacrificial rod, it is a metallic anode used in cathodic protection where it is intended to be dissolved to protect other metallic components.

So if you do use distilled water
you should add at least one grain of hardness back to the water so its not as aggressive on metallic parts.

Lechat do you have any numbers on how many GPH (Gallons per hour) you are going to need?

With steam cleaners its GPM (gallons per minute) any where from 1 or 2 gallons per minute and as high as 10 gallons per minute.

Four cylinders means more steam which means more water which means more on board water storage which means more water slouch so then you need baffles in the water tank….

....um sorry
You can do it we have faith in you as a contraption builder.


Keep us posted we love this stuff.



My experience comes from very many years in the steam cleaning industry I have worked on thousands of machines at the same time I was also a water treatment specialist working with thousands of water treatment systems.
MozyBonz
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:54 pm

Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:20 am

Yes, I’m pretty sure the deposits would be an issue with grey water, unfortunately (I suppose you could use clean cooler water, though… Hmmm).

In other forums, I’ve heard the figure of 5 gallons per hour being tossed around for engines of a similar displacement. I’m going to plan for a bit more than that, though. Also got to work out a nice looking holding tank. I’ve got some ideas for that already.

I’m planning on having it running in time to test it all very well and gauge the water use before hand. Hopefully have the engine running by the end of July.
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather
User avatar
LeChatNoir
 
Posts: 5885
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:52 am
Location: Louisville, Ky

Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:24 am

I do think ice chest water would work great thou.


Aha... You posted as I was writing, and once again I see the strange minds think alike.
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather
User avatar
LeChatNoir
 
Posts: 5885
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:52 am
Location: Louisville, Ky

Postby MozyBonz » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:07 am

Mind wander~~if you did the valving with the option to cut off two cylinders for steam economy and then turn them back on for more horse power~~end thought
MozyBonz
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:54 pm

Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:07 pm

Certainly worth a ponder… yes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I’ve been doing some digging today for figuring out how much water this thing is going to use per hour and I found this book herethat seemed to provide me with the very answers I was seeking… one of which is that water expands by roughly 1600 when turned to steam (Please, please feel free to correct me if I’m not correct with any of these figures, by the way).

To cut to the chase, the formula, as shown on page 367 of the above mentioned book, is as follows:

(Cubic Inches of steam per hour * Pressure of Steam in Atmospheres) / 1600

The engine has four cylinders, each with a 1.500â€
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather
User avatar
LeChatNoir
 
Posts: 5885
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:52 am
Location: Louisville, Ky

Postby fciron » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:19 pm

MozyBonz,

I have seen the cylinders in question and they are tiny. I would be surprised if the entire engine displaced more than 15 cubic inches. Check out the picture earlier in the thread and remember that the cylinders are about 1-1/2" in diameter with about 1-1/2" stroke.

If these were traditional double acting steam cylinder it would be crazy power. The current situation is quite different.

I would be inclined to save water by using a lower pressure rather than less displacement. This engine is going to be used in an environment where the possibility of distraction is very high and a lower pressure just increases the safety factor.

Of course that is a moot point since LeChat would never exercise anything less than the utmost responsibility with his contraption.

<edit>D'oh. Always read LeChat's post first. I think the internet screwed me somehow. I swear it wasn't there a minute ago.
User avatar
fciron
 
Posts: 628
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:49 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:26 pm

fciron wrote:<edit>D'oh. Always read LeChat's post first. I think the internet screwed me somehow. I swear it wasn't there a minute ago.


Yeah... I'm bad to read and reread my text before posting it and I forget to hit preview again to see if anybody's posted anything new. By then, sure enough somebody's beat me to it.
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather
User avatar
LeChatNoir
 
Posts: 5885
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:52 am
Location: Louisville, Ky

Postby MozyBonz » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:37 pm

math not math...Noooooooooo!

good point fciron.


Here is a resource Lechat.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/wet-s ... d_426.html

lets see 5 mph..... 3 gph...... how far was it across the city?
MozyBonz
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:54 pm

Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:39 pm

Now with all that cipherin’ out of the way, here’s where I’m having to think about the mechanics of the machine again.

The way steam works, an engine using it for power has max torque at 0.01 rpm, so you can simply hook the engine up directly to the drive axle, as in the Stanley Steamer or Doble steamcars. This is the most sensible approach since it also uses the least amount of steam. If the engine were hooked up in this fashion to The Contraption (assumig it had enough power to do so), it’d only have to turn about 45 rpm to go 5 mph+. Using the above formula, that’s using only ¾ of a gallon of water per hour.

I could do this, sure… but then that means the flywheel doesn’t spin round and round and that‘s not right. But if I run it 1:1 hooked up to the flywheel as it is now, then due to the drive train designed around a hand pump, I’m using 3 gallons per hour and gong 2.2 mph. I’d much rather go 5 or so, naturally.

You might simply say, “Just gear it up to where the flywheel spins at around 500 rpm and there’s your 5 mph“. Well… I could, but since this flywheel was made with a hammer, anvil, and a drill press, its not the most perfectly balanced or centered thing around. Even with a careful static balancing job, it gets a noticeable vibration around 400 rpm and I’d rather not have that going on if I can avoid it.

I could switch and gear up the final drive to accommodate the steam, but then it’d be damn near impossible to move it using the handpump, thus defeating the purpose of leaving it on in the first place.

Anybody got any thoughts on this predicament?

I’m noodling over using a 1:1 hook up between the engine and flywheel and some sort of “Throw a big giant leverâ€
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather
User avatar
LeChatNoir
 
Posts: 5885
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:52 am
Location: Louisville, Ky

Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:45 pm

MozyBonz wrote:lets see 5 mph..... 3 gph...... how far was it across the city?


I think roughly 1.5 miles in diameter (outer ring to outer ring)
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather
User avatar
LeChatNoir
 
Posts: 5885
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:52 am
Location: Louisville, Ky

Postby MozyBonz » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:25 pm

[quote="LeChatNoir"]Now with all that cipherin’ out of the way, here’s where I’m having to think about the mechanics of the machine again.

The way steam works, an engine using it for power has max torque at 0.01 rpm, so you can simply hook the engine up directly to the drive axle, as in the Stanley Steamer or Doble steamcars. This is the most sensible approach since it also uses the least amount of steam. If the engine were hooked up in this fashion to The Contraption (assumig it had enough power to do so), it’d only have to turn about 45 rpm to go 5 mph+. Using the above formula, that’s using only ¾ of a gallon of water per hour.

I could do this, sure… but then that means the flywheel doesn’t spin round and round and that‘s not right. But if I run it 1:1 hooked up to the flywheel as it is now, then due to the drive train designed around a hand pump, I’m using 3 gallons per hour and gong 2.2 mph. I’d much rather go 5 or so, naturally.

You might simply say, “Just gear it up to where the flywheel spins at around 500 rpm and there’s your 5 mph“. Well… I could, but since this flywheel was made with a hammer, anvil, and a drill press, its not the most perfectly balanced or centered thing around. Even with a careful static balancing job, it gets a noticeable vibration around 400 rpm and I’d rather not have that going on if I can avoid it.

I could switch and gear up the final drive to accommodate the steam, but then it’d be damn near impossible to move it using the handpump, thus defeating the purpose of leaving it on in the first place.

Anybody got any thoughts on this predicament?

I’m noodling over using a 1:1 hook up between the engine and flywheel and some sort of “Throw a big giant leverâ€
MozyBonz
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:54 pm

Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:32 pm

Ahhh... that could work. I worry about the engine having enough power to actually move the thing at a 1:1 ratio though... now that I think on it a bit more.

If it were too much work to move it, something would simply break inside the engine.

I'm researching figuring HP of this engine right now. Then I'll have a better idea on how it'll need to be geared to do it.

ETA: Hey! there's already a belt that could drive the flywheel. the final drive belts. with the one-way clutch on the handpump, this would work just fine to leave the final drive engaged.

However, this means that the steam engine would need a one-way clutch as well, otherwise, you'd be cranking it as well if you used hand power.

...That, then, means no using the engine to slow the vehicle.

Jeez... now my head hurts. I'm heading to bed.
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather
User avatar
LeChatNoir
 
Posts: 5885
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:52 am
Location: Louisville, Ky

Postby MozyBonz » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:37 pm

LeChatNoir wrote:Ahhh... that could work. I worry about the engine having enough power to actually move the thing at a 1:1 ratio though... now that I think on it a bit more.

If it were too much work to move it, something would simply break inside the engine.

I'm researching figuring HP of this engine right now. Then I'll have a better idea on how it'll need to be geared to do it.




I think you will do fine with HP.
MozyBonz
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:54 pm

Postby MozyBonz » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:45 pm

nite
MozyBonz
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:54 pm

Postby MozyBonz » Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:54 pm

LeChatNoir wrote:Ahhh... that could work. I worry about the engine having enough power to actually move the thing at a 1:1 ratio though... now that I think on it a bit more.

If it were too much work to move it, something would simply break inside the engine.

I'm researching figuring HP of this engine right now. Then I'll have a better idea on how it'll need to be geared to do it.

ETA: Hey! there's already a belt that could drive the flywheel. the final drive belts. with the one-way clutch on the hand pump, this would work just fine to leave the final drive engaged.

However, this means that the steam engine would need a one-way clutch as well, otherwise, you'd be cranking it as well if you used hand power.

...That, then, means no using the engine to slow the vehicle.

Jeez... now my head hurts. I'm heading to bed.



don't use one way on the steam Eng if your not using steam its a break down or out of water so make it ez to disconnect the steam drive from the drive axle.


edit: better yet engage the steam drive in the same way you do now with the hand pump. just pull the lever.
MozyBonz
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:54 pm

Postby Captain Goddammit » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:38 pm

I can't picture the water tank being anything but an old wooden barrel. Maybe a pair, one on each side, like a semi truck's fuel tanks.
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."
Delle: Singularly we may be dysfunctional misfits, but together we're magic.
User avatar
Captain Goddammit
 
Posts: 6097
Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:34 am
Location: Seattle, WA
Burning Since: 2000
Camp Name: First Camp

Postby unjonharley » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:52 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:I can't picture the water tank being anything but an old wooden barrel. Maybe a pair, one on each side, like a semi truck's fuel tanks.


figure there should be a few stills around that there neck of the woods.. wood cooling barrels would look great..then mock the boilers outer skin to look like a moonshiners still..
User avatar
unjonharley
 
Posts: 10011
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Location: Salem Or.

Postby fciron » Wed Mar 12, 2008 10:03 am

...That's not a still; it's folk art. Really.
User avatar
fciron
 
Posts: 628
Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2008 11:49 pm
Location: Louisville, KY

Postby LeChatNoir » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:04 pm

Then we could hide a whiskey bottle in it with a little nozzle sticking out within passenger reach...

You'd have to pry Unjon off the seat then.

Heh Heh

Small scale distilling really is art... one that thankfully is still around in some places. There's even a move afoot to grant artisan distilling licenses. I think Indiana has already issue some. And the copper pot stills in the larger distilleries are just flat out gorgeous. Mozy posted a pic of some a while back. Beautiful things...

Here's an article on the artisan distilling that I remembered reading and dug back up:
The New and Improved Black Cat... now with 25% more blather
User avatar
LeChatNoir
 
Posts: 5885
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:52 am
Location: Louisville, Ky

Postby MozyBonz » Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:57 pm

yes some copper would look great
Image

get that deep brown color to it after a week in the playa.
MozyBonz
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:54 pm

Postby unjonharley » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:01 pm

Mozy, That there-n to shiny fancy fer the ccan-trap-chewen.. it's got no dents from the rev-n-oors axe..pappy's still hasta have a perteener likeken to the horn on the rig..
User avatar
unjonharley
 
Posts: 10011
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:05 am
Location: Salem Or.

PreviousNext

Return to 2008 Art & Performance

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest