NeVaDa state laws in regards to FLAG BURNING

Postby Teo del Fuego » Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:49 pm

Nathan,

I asked that silly question to show you how freakin frustrating it is to try to have a discussion with someone who continually misinterprets the points being made. I know you dont hate children.

But, man oh man, please read my posts and sort out "analogy for sake of argument" from all the many times I have stated I am against violence and dont plan on hitting anyone. If you will look harder, you will see many statements supporting the fact that I am not advocating jaw popping.

I am at times very inarticulate, and I know this was one of them, and I do apologize for confusion, but at some point, after repeated explanation, any confusion resides solely with you not me.

I was trying to use analogy to compare jaw popping (god, what a redneck term that is...again, my bad) with flag burning in an effort to show that both of these acts are lazy, idea-void, stupid provocations leading to violence or further violence. Neither of them should be afforded protection under the US Constiution. [Byslv I know, the Nine Gods to whom we have deferred all debate on issues, i.e. the Supreme Court, has ruled on the issue...]

I DO NOT ADVOCATE VIOLENCE OF ANY KIND, and I INTELLECTUALLY KNOW the Flag does not equal the rights and liberties associated with the cloth. BUT, here's some honesty, the American Flag means a hell of a lot to me.

If an American veteran, or someone raised prior to the 60's, or by parents who were adults prior to the 60s, who really has a strong emotional connection to our flag appens to attend Burning Man and sees you burning an American Flag, just understand that not everyone, particularly when dehydrated and sleep deprived, are ruled solely by intellect. You may get in a fight over your act. It WONT BE FROM ME-- particularly if you're bigger than me : ) (kidding.)

Ya know, your temple-flag-burning thing is more palatable, slightly, than taking a big Old American Flag and setting it on fire and stomping it on the playa. But why the hell burn any flag at Burning Man?

Why do it at Burning Man? Have some kahounas and do it on the Capitol steps or at the Moscone Center, if you have to do it at all. Why oh why inject such lazy bile into my (and everyone elses) one freakin' week-long "time out" from politicans and McLaughlin Group wannabees?

Others have said it here. The American flag may mean nothing to you, but not everyone is "intellectual enough" to completely divorce the symbol for the rights we possess. You KNOW this, or you wouldn't bother to burn it in the first place, no?

I totally disagree with the premise that burning the American flag is speech or even a political protest. It is an indiscrimnately cast "fuck you." Its a psychological car-bomb. You may offend the redneck rightwing politician, but you also take out the WWII vets, or the millions of people who grew up in different times and circumstances from you.

You have rights. Think before you exercise them. I will too.

At this point, my emotions have all died down and Im feeling the warm flow of serotonin all around. SO, please accept my apologies for poor writing and rude comments.

Burn On!
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Postby barnz » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:23 pm

boy it's confusing to see one person argue with another person that I've blocked... :lol:
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Postby SFNathan » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:38 pm

“SO, please accept my apologies for poor writing and rude comments. Burn On!â€
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Postby Toolmaker » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:41 pm

[quote="SFNathan"]Now how would you explain to your child that it’s okay for someone to “pop someone else in the jawâ€
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Postby Valkyrie » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:40 pm

That raises an interesting question. What would you be willing to do - in an immediate sense - in order to stop something happening that shouldn't happen? Toolmaker has said that he'd hit someone who was trying to rape someone. What if you saw a man hit a woman? Another man? How sure would you have to be to act? Things are often fuzzy when the adrenaline gets going and the immediacy strikes home...
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Postby dr.placebo » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:45 pm

If violence is required to stop something much worse then one is obligated to try. But one has to be pretty damn sure that there is not a less violent, preferably non-violent, means to resolve the problem. Too many people don't try the non-violent way first, and then claim that their violence is justified.
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Postby goathead » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:36 am

If you start sticking Default World flags and slogans all over it, it diminishes the illusion of being Wholly Other.


I disagree, we fly many different flags in our camp. I fly a Welsh flag, still have family in Wales and would love to visit them some day. But I love to visit with people from there. One of our camp mates has flown a large flag from North Dakota from his bike for years hoping to come across someone from home. This year he just flew a large white flag, he never did find anyone else from there. Its just another way to connect with people.
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Postby goathead » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:24 am

Is a flag the image or the material the image is on?
Can I burn a Dixie cup that has an image of the American Flag? Is that ok?
How about a Xerox copy of a US flag? Is it ok as long as the Xerox is in B&W and not color?
What about a small plasic US flag made in China that people wave in parades and then toss on the ground after the parade is over? Can I burn that?
Or is it the colors? What if I have a cloth Stars and Stripes that is Rose, Beige, and Baby Blue....can I burn that?

I'm all confused.


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Burn these all day long and enjoy.
Just don't get caught and have to pay the stupid tax.
Does that help?
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:24 am

just a real quick post to Nathan and everyone else. I really found the discussion helpful to me sorting through my thoughts on this and really admire the quality of debate.

Okay enuf warm-n-fuzzies. Off to Moab!
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Yup, Me too.

Postby SFbrothermichael » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:46 am

quote="Teo del Fuego"... I really found the discussion helpful to me sorting through my thoughts on this and really admire the quality of debate."

Yup.
Me too.
I can hardly pass an image of the American flag lately without thinking of all that's been said here on e*playa.
I'm finding a new connection to the image of the stars and stripes, and examining my own preconceived ideas about what America is and how I fit in.

We're evolving from "the world's biggest party" to something much more.
None of us can say where this will all lead, but I'm proud to be a part of it.

Thank you ALL for your unique insight and eloquence.




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Postby Simon of the Playa » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:36 pm

i hate to drag the level of discussion back into the gutter, but it is my nature...

Allright, the McLaughlin Group, Naked, including Cokie Roberts, cause i know deep down she's a nudey wannabe, doing their schtick live from the playa...

Pat Buchanan i hear has been working out too...

so, the Post Modern American vacation finally comes to PBS, et al...

(leave Fox in Gerlach)

it's a dream i have, to hear john cut off that asshole from the washington times and yell, thats ALL, BYE BYE, from BLACK ROCK CITY....

it could happen you know, anything can...omg....i'm a friday night political talking head geek....oh shit....i'm showing my partisan panties...
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Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:19 pm

Damn!! I soiled my partisan panties in a guerilla action!
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:42 am

"is that a hash mark, or are you just glad to see me?"
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Flag Burning

Postby Vidmagic » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:10 pm

Come on people. You are all taking this way too seriously. Good theme for 2009....Humor Lost.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:00 am

not all of us.
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Postby blyslv » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:08 am

OK here's a little personal history. I was lucky enough to live overseas for several years and occasionally I would come across an American embassy or compound where the flag was flying. I was always happy to see it and very proud.

Also, 3 separate times in my life I have taken an oath to protect and defend the US Constitution, and I am still proud of that.

Once an elderly Greek gentleman said to me, on a train from Corfu to Athens that he could only give me half of his heart. He loved Americans, but he hated our government. Then his grandson pulled out a bottle of ouzo, the old guy kicked my ass in a strength contest and taught me some Greek dancing moves.

Anyway, that is that.
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Flag Burning

Postby Vidmagic » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:26 pm

Saluting a flag is one thing. But I question the concept of saluting the flag when it is worn as a lapel pin on the coat of a politician. Historically speaking, it is a scary thing when politicians ware flags (or other symbols) on their cloths....such as our current administration seems to require.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:39 am

Ted, i need some legal advice...

If i Tattoo the Stars and stripes on my dick, and then the map of Iraq on my girlfriends ass, and then, well, you know.....


is that desecrating the flag?

or just good clean American Fun?
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Postby blyslv » Wed Oct 17, 2007 9:20 am

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Free flag lapel pin on the playa next year to the first one to correctly identify who said this!
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Re: NeVaDa state laws in regards to FLAG BURNING

Postby HughMungus » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:06 pm

Am I stating the obvious if I say that burning an American flag will be the most hackneyed form of expression on the playa in 2008?
It's what you make it.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:27 pm

Is it against the law to burn effigies?
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Re: NeVaDa state laws in regards to FLAG BURNING

Postby blyslv » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:04 pm

HughMungus wrote:Am I stating the obvious if I say that burning an American flag will be the most hackneyed form of expression on the playa in 2008?


That's just a challenge to make it into interesting art. I think it might be doable, but most likely not within my abilities.
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Postby bobalou » Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:12 pm

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel."

Free flag lapel pin on the playa next year to the first one to correctly identify who said this!


Samuel Johnson





And I think HughMongus got it right. I personally respect our flag for many of the reasons already expressed. Yes I'm a Vet.

Butt...it's been done to the point of being meaningless now. Maybe the first person who publicly burned a flag was communicating something, but anymore it's just either trite, or done to provoke someone.

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Postby blyslv » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:07 am

We have a winner!

I'll be in Wheee!Ville. If I forget the flag pin, will you accept tequila or grilled steak as a proxy?
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Postby mullingitover » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:39 am

I love the flag burning topic. It's a great way to help the nationalists identify themselves. Nationalists are people who would physically attack you for insulting their pride in the country they happened to be born in.

Nationalism is a cultural sickness. I like how Doug Stanhope put it. "Nationalism teaches you to hate people you never met, and take pride in accomplishments you had no part in."

Burning a flag is kick in the balls for nationalism, and it's entirely appropriate right now in our nation's history. If you're proud of the way the government of the United States has been behaving, you have no clue what is going on in the world around you. Both the President and Congress are polling at historic lows, quite arguably for good reason. They have bankrupted our country, tarnished our reputation abroad, enriched the wealthy, and harmed those in poverty. They have done more harm with their actions than if they had simply stayed home.

The symbol of our nation that's actually still worthy of reverence is the Constitution. That's what gives us our freedom, and gives us freedom from those who would exploit us. The liberties guaranteed to us by our Constitution are what we go to war to protect, not a piece of cloth.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:57 am

hear hear!

when nationalism rears it's ugly head you know we are ALL in trouble.
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Postby SFNathan » Sat Oct 20, 2007 10:00 am

wow - Mullingitover, that was very well written and added some new insights I hadn't thought of. Thanks for contributing your thoughts.
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Postby Valkyrie » Sun Oct 21, 2007 2:53 pm

So... what if I decide to bring about a billion copies of the constitution to burn... like certain other people seem intent on doing...
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Postby SFNathan » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:34 pm

"So... what if I decide to bring about a billion copies of the constitution to burn... like certain other people seem intent on doing..."

If you sat there with a stack of constitutions to burn, you would probably get nothing but people rolling their eyes at you for being cynical and not creative. But if you had a really beautiful fire sculpture of your favorite parts of the constitution, decorated with images of things related to the burning art, or some other RESPECTFUL fire art about the subject, you might actually have someone think of it in a different way than they ever have before.

Burning art doesn't have to be about disrespect. It can be a powerful way of honoring the subject, as has been the case with the Temple Burn and many other beautiful works of art that take on provocative subjects with respect for all the thousands of diverse people who are a part of the interactive artwork.
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Postby dedqgirl » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:24 pm

maybe i'm naive or something, but i really don't see the point in burning a flag, regardless of this year's themes. like someone said on a different forum (most likely tribe), it's not creative in the least.

i think it's silly to burn the flag of the country in which you live. i can totally understand people burning our flag in other countries. i don't like it, but i'm not going to tell them not to, because we've done pretty crappy things to other countries. but if i'm mad at my own government there are much better things to burn. because that flag doesn't represent my government as much as it represents the people. it represents <i>me</i>. i am american. so are you. so why burn something that represents you? don't want to be american? that's totally your right. but don't expect me to be okay with you ignorantly burning a symbol which represents me and those i love.

i would suggest doing other things, like burning a giant oversized mock replica of a law you hate... i.e. take a big piece of white posterboard and write out the Patriot Act and burn that. or burn a large copy of the seal of the president (is that legal?). or a picture of the white house. there are TONS of easily recognizable symbols that truly represent those things - and only those things - about our government that make you angry.

but when you disrespect the american flag you're not just disrespecting the government which you might seem to think has so blatantly ruined your life (or whatever you feel about the gov't), but you're also disrespecting me, my family, my friends, and every single american person that i've ever met, and *that* is why i would have no qualms about jacking you in the jaw if i saw you burning a U.S. flag.

i do have an idea that involves the flag and fire. what about setting up a couple hundred red white and blue candles on a plank of wood and inviting people to light one (for a person they want to honor or just to honor their country, their home) and place them in the pattern of the flag.... if i had the resources i would totally do that....
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