NeVaDa state laws in regards to FLAG BURNING

Postby wedeliver » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:32 pm

I have a question. I am a vietnam veteran. Do I have a right to "burn the flag". I have never burnt one, but 39 years ago, when I was popping rounds off as a good American soldier, I figured I was defending my right to "burn the flag" What do you all think?
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Postby dedqgirl » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:04 pm

sure you have the right (i don't know about the law, but i'm just saying, in general).

that doesn't mean i have to like you for exercising that right.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:10 am

dedqgirl wrote

"that doesn't mean i have to like you for exercising that right."


wow.....she broke it down to the lowest common denominator.....i like it.


fuck constitutionality, and legal mumbo jumbo....Fuck whether it's patriotic or not...

is it fucking sexy, now there's the meat of the matter...

the real question is........FLAG BURNING, HOT !! or NOT !!???????
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Postby Bin Noddin » Thu Oct 25, 2007 10:59 am

It was hot 40 years ago. Now - yawn - show me more creative ways to express dissent. Agree with dedqgirl.
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Postby mullingitover » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:56 pm

"i would have no qualms about jacking you in the jaw if i saw you burning a U.S. flag. "


You're a true patriot. Please come to Burning Man, we need lots of violent nationalists there to really represent our nation's values. You'll be perfect.

you're also disrespecting me, my family, my friends, and every single american person that i've ever met


Guantanamo is disrespecting me, my family, my friends, and every single american person that i've ever met.

Government-ordered torture is disrespecting me, my family, my friends, and every single american person that i've ever met.

Warrantless wiretapping is disrespecting me, my family, my friends, and every single american person that i've ever met.

Kidnapping people and sending them to Egypt to be tortured is disrespecting me, my family, my friends, and every single american person that i've ever met.

The attempted Gay Marriage Ban Amendment is disrespecting me, my family, my friends, and every single american person that i've ever met.

Invading Iraq, killing half a million people, and thowing the country into chaos all for their oil is disrespecting me, my family, my friends, and every single american person that i've ever met.

The endless, wrongheaded war on drugs is disrespecting me, my family, my friends, and every single american person that i've ever met.

Calling the Constitution 'a goddamned piece of paper' like Bush did is disrespecting me, my family, my friends, and every single american person that i've ever met.

Burning a flag doesn't hurt me. It's a piece of cloth.
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flags really make me have to fart

Postby fartman » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:08 am

I see the red, and the white and the blue, and my tummy starts to brew with juices, and I feel funny, and a little bubble, goes, "pop." out from my britches. People can tell from the look on my face that I just ate a flag.
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:33 am

flag burning is sooo Defaultia and sooo 1960s

Harder and more effective to make your political point in a positive and artistic way....

or better yet

leave the politics at home and let us roll around in bliss one stinking week of our lives!
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:27 am

ah yes, camp stinking bliss, i remember it well...

in 96' a garlic truck filled with gerlach garlic had a mishap with a bigass RV and spilled its fragrant load all over the road on the west side of the playa.

in the middle was minced, the side was crushed, and on the shoulder, loads of whole cloves...

we scooped up a brown paper bags worth.

we tried to make stew, and roasted garlic, and chocolate covered, well, you get the picture...

well, anyways, our camp did stink like italian hippies, but it was blissfull...
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Postby Valkyrie » Fri Oct 26, 2007 9:48 am

Mmm. Italian hippies. Did you all speak with that groovy accent?
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Flag Burning and Free Speach

Postby Stagger » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:34 pm

I look at a flag and I think about my Dad... what he went through growing up, and serving in 2 wars (WWII and Korea). Regardless of whether you thought the wars were good or bad; from his point of view he was just out to take care of his men... trying to make sure that everyone got out alive in the end. He commanded an all black company in the south (Georgia) at a time when just being black was offensive to most of the people in the community. He never made any distinction between black or white. He just wanted them all to come out alive in the end.

Sometimes I get choked up when I look at the flag and think about him.

And sometimes when they play the national anthem I stand. Oh, not because I particularly care about the anthem. But because it's 2 minutes of time when I can tell the mucky-muck from my company that is in my face to be quiet and leave me alone - and he can't say shit about it. It's one of the few really sacred things in this country; you don't talk to someone while the anthem is going on if they indicate they don't want to be bothered. (which I find funny .. and have used to my advantage)

The problem with flag burning as speach is ... it's not very clear what the person burning the flag is trying to say. Since the flag is imbued with so many different meanings to so many different people, burning it sends a different message to every person watching it being burnt. Burning the flag as an act of speach is kind of like an incoherent scream as an act of free speach. Sure, a scream can say alot too, but it's not very eloquent and doesn't much make a point.

Still, I can watch someone burn a flag and not feel emotionally charged by it. I can choke up when I see a flag; with all the things it brings to my mind. But if someone wants to burn it, that doesn't take anything away from what I still have inside me. Because that's where the meaning really lives - inside me.

Burning the flag is an incoherent scream of protest signifying dissatisfaction, and not much else. Burning copies of the Bill of Rights or Constitution would be more meaningful, but still not very eloquent.

I would not pass a law against buring the flag - unless I paid for that flag, then they are damaging my property.

If flags are burnt at Burning Man next year, the media will pick it up. Some people will be offended and, knowing nothing else about what Burning Man is, condemn the whole event and all the people who attend. Some people may cheer and think it very expressive (thought they won't know of what... just mostly what THEY hate about the country, or the politicians, or the lunch menu).

Personally, I'll think it's stupid to burn flags. (a) It's pretty meaningless - like an incoherent scream above. (b) It's not very original - and at an event like Burning Man you would think people could come up with something more interesting. (c) It's almost cliche. So cliche in fact that Paul Addis might break out of jail just to set the man on fire again to protest how cliche Burning Man has become.

As far at my American Dream goes... it's that America, and eventually the world, can live up to the ideals that they tried to embody in the Bill of Rights... that people all get a fair shot at life, liberty and pursuing happiness .. and equal treatment under fair laws representing the will of the people and protecting non-major minorities from the oppression of the majority. It's alot to hope for... guess that's why they call it a dream.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:25 pm

I don't think I'll be standing for the Stars and Stripes...
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:41 pm

perhaps the stars and bars?


how un-pc would it be to break out the white hoodies?


i also think the belgians who made the waffle were jews.


does anybody remember the term "gook"?





"one man's american dream is another man's fascist nightmare"
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Postby Silverwheel » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:33 pm

I'l bring up a couple of points here. First, mullingitover, thank you. That was one of the most lucid and coherent responses that I have ever seen to the subject.

Next, I don't want to see flags burning. I much prefer to see the flag of my country flying proudly. Here's my point, and follow me through here, please: every time I see a flag flying (and we have a lot of them where I live) I know that someone, somewhere owns that wonderful, garish piece of fabric. That flag - I don't mean the graphic design, I mean the threads themselves - is someone's property.

Someone, somewhere has the right to burn that very flag and yet chooses not to. I see flags every day that someone could burn if they chose - but they don't. But make a law that turns flag-burning into a crime, and I lose the pleasure I have in seeing those unburned flags.

There are many who feel that the flag is worth protecting, and I among them. But if you protect it with laws and the threat of punishment, you haven't protected it - you've insulted it. Yes, you have. You've implied that it cannot protect itself by the love it instills in the people of the nation it represents - you've said that it must be protected by threats, instead of love.

Instead, protect the flag by protecting the values which it was intended to represent. Some will burn it anyway - in our millions there's a lot of folks even at the ends of the bell curve. They're not disrespecting you - they don't even know you.

And if you feel they are - then so what? If you, or me, or your ancestors or mine are worthy of respect, we do not become less so because some stranger refuses to accord it to us.

Ignore these dissenters if you must, but better would be to find out why they burned the flag - they may have something worth listening to. They may not - but you can still take pride in a country that is secure enough to allow dissent.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:01 am

silverwheel, i agree with you on many points, it was a well written, concise response to the Topic Question...

however, you wrote....

"but you can still take pride in a country that is secure enough to allow dissent."

i'm afraid that as a result of the patriot acts I and II, and the numerous "Executive Signings" and now the just passed HR1955, we as a nation and as individuals no longer have the freedoms that were described in our beloved constitution and bill of rights...in fact , they can snoop in anything they want to from your postings on e-playa, to the urine in your bladder.


the current administration has done more to shred and defecate on what I opine to one of the most important and saavy documents ever penned.


i think that the flag, and our government have soiled itself. By someone burning the flag in protest of this ugly situation, we have to realize that freedom of expression is the right to express an opinion on any given topic, without fear of GOVERNMENT intrusion into the matter.

whether or not the "expression" is protected, or vilified, or just plain ignored...

it makes the cockles of my heart sing to see the nazi's march in Skokie...


because it means that MY rights still exist.....and to know that our country SHOULD be the land of the FREE, not the place of the AFRAID.

and believe me, "make no mistake", the current administration scares the living shit out of me, Because our rights as described on the bill of rights, no longer exist.


will i burn a flag? probably not...i have a full scheduale, and it's just not my thing.....i do want know though, that at any moment, i could, without fear of arrest.
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Postby Silverwheel » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:01 am

Thank you, Simon. I realize that I didn't express myself as well as I had intended. I mean, I knew what I meant, why didn't everyone?

Because they only have the words I put down to go on. Sigh. My fault.

By "secure enough to allow dissent" I did not mean our current government. I meant the hypothetical government which has, as one of its' signal virtues, the right of the people to burn a flag if they choose.

I certainly did not mean the current cleptocracy with its' Free Speech Zones and pre-vetted questioners as every public appearance. Free Speech Zone! (click it) - The very idea disgusts me - their very existence testifies that speech in zones outside those so designated is not free. Which of course it isn't.

I'm reminded of the old story from my zen training, in which a weary traveler stops to rest his feet on one of the many small roadside shrines that were a feature of feudal Japan. As it happened, the shrine keeper came along at that moment, and gave the man a full ration for his choice of footstool. The man asked why he couldn't rest his feet where they were. The keeper replied, "Because that's a holy place!"

The man replied, "Oh. I'm sorry. If you'll show me someplace that is not holy, I'll be glad to rest my feet there instead."

In the society I hope we can achieve someday, speech, flag-burning, and feet-resting will be allowed without let. That will be a country secure enough to allow dissent.
Love without hope, as when the young bird-catcher
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Sat Oct 27, 2007 10:01 am

Simon of the Playa wrote:"one man's american dream is another man's fascist nightmare"

That's it, the best themes can be interpreted a couple of ways.

American dream, Amerikan nightmare.


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Postby Valkyrie » Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:00 pm

Mmm, yes, now we're down to the meat of it - the disjunction between the current America(n Dream) and the ideal America(n Dream). In an ideal world, the world of my childhood, I'd be fiercely defensive of that flag. Now, I'm not so sure.

The Stars and Bars are looking more appealing to me every day, I think. Not because of all the crap that they teach you about slavery and the American Civil War in the northern schools (which really is totally a history of the winner, and mostly whitewash), but because of what they teach you about right to self-determination and the "Second American Revolution" in the southern schools. (I've attended both.)
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Postby SFNathan » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:51 pm

"Mmm, yes, now we're down to the meat of it - the disjunction between the current America(n Dream) and the ideal America(n Dream). In an ideal world, the world of my childhood, I'd be fiercely defensive of that flag. Now, I'm not so sure."

funny how each of our own childhood experiences can tell us something about the ideal world, or how much the world sucked in the past and has gotten much better. Some people talk about "the Greatest Generation" and how the 60's had people who were really engaged in chaging the world. All of this idealization of the past glowingly admires certain aspects while ignoring other history.

In my younger years, they let people die of AIDS without the president even mentioning the word AIDS because gay people were unimportant to Reagan and the conservatives in power. Today, we are much closer to an ideal world for people like me, because even conservatives are finally starting to accept that gay people are humans deserving rights and basic healthcare like everyone else (although they are still a long ways off on rights to things like marriage).

Idealization is subjective, especially when historical periods are the subject considered "ideal".
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Postby Valkyrie » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:08 pm

I think you miss the point I was trying to make about "the world of my childhood". As a kid, I didn't understand everything that was going on around me. I had no idea what was going on with the war in Vietnam, even though later I discovered that my dad had been sending my mother back tapes talking about these kids near where they were who were orphans living in a cardboard box, with the oldest being about the age of my older sister. I never knew about the ugliness and bad things going on.

I listened to Glen Campbell singing about rhinestone cowboys and celebrated the bicentennial, wearing red white and blue everything all year without understanding or caring why we had a new president without an election. A child's view is, if the parents are careful, an idealized view.

The country I was born to is deeply important to my family in ways that most people would find difficult to understand or believe. Politics? Issues? These things have absolutely no bearing on that and it's like talking about the exterior of a building when considering the interior lighting. The core concepts, the ideals enumerated in the constitution. The stuff my relatives and ancestors died for. They didn't die for health care reform or gay marriage or any of that. Nobody's going to lay down their life for issues.





As a rather humorous aside, I had a conversation at a family gathering a few years back with some family of my grandparent's generation (think octogenarians) about why they wouldn't do much with the internet. They were actually pretty hip on the technology and I think their argument against it was pretty astute, and is only now coming into the public consciousness: privacy. A core American value... or is it any more?
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Mon Oct 29, 2007 11:04 am

I think these debates are largely constructive, but, still, I am of the opinion, that it would be nice in a highly politicized world to have a one-week vacation from politics to celebrate art...just freakin' art by freaks for freaks.
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Postby fluffernutter » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:14 pm

A little off-topic.

How would you all feel about burning a folded flag placed in the temple? I wanted to leave the flag that was given to the family upon my father-in-laws death in the temple as a remembrance. My husband wasn't comfortable with doing that.
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It's a little hypocritical, isn't it?

Postby daretruth » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:22 pm

Is it me, or is it more than a little hypocritical that we are not free to do whatever we want with the "symbol of freedom?"

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Re: It's a little hypocritical, isn't it?

Postby Flon » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:56 pm

daretruth wrote:Is it me, or is it more than a little hypocritical that we are not free to do whatever we want with the "symbol of freedom?"


I don't hear many people here saying that you shouldn't be free to burn a flag. I hear them say that it would be a cliche, pointless and usually stupid thing to do.

I've seen a lot of flags burned in my time, and it has never been entirely clear to me what the person hoped to accomplish by the act other than childish shock value.
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Re: It's a little hypocritical, isn't it?

Postby Silverwheel » Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:47 pm

Flon wrote:...and it has never been entirely clear to me what the person hoped to accomplish by the act other than childish shock value.

Well done! You admit you don't understand and yet you judge - in the same sentence!
Love without hope, as when the young bird-catcher
Swept off his tall hat to the Squire's own daughter,
So let the imprisoned larks escape and fly
Singing about her head, as she rode by.
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Postby Valkyrie » Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:57 pm

fluffernutter wrote:A little off-topic.

How would you all feel about burning a folded flag placed in the temple? I wanted to leave the flag that was given to the family upon my father-in-laws death in the temple as a remembrance. My husband wasn't comfortable with doing that.

I think that would be very meaningful.
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Postby lurker » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:35 am

I certainly did not mean the current cleptocracy with its' Free Speech Zones and pre-vetted questioners as every public appearance.


Funny that, the Bush admin creating all these Free Speech Zones and yet the only pictures of one that Wikipedia could be assed to post--while bitching about Bush's 'zones' were the cages erected at the 2004 Dem convention.

Hey, what happened at Bush's convention, you know, the Republican one?

There were protesters in the street right outside--hell, some got in.

Funny, no? You'd think that Bush, Suppresser of Dissent and Remover of Civil Rights would have jackbooted tactics easier to photograph, no?

Unless, of course, they didn't exist. But that's just nuts. Everyone knows that the Bush junta is clamping down on people saying things against the administrations policies, suppressing media that disagrees with it's evil policies--I saw it on TV, heard it on Air America, and I've even read about some of it right here.

There was that oscar winning movie, too.......
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Postby lurker » Tue Oct 30, 2007 8:40 am

How would you all feel about burning a folded flag placed in the temple? I wanted to leave the flag that was given to the family upon my father-in-laws death in the temple as a remembrance. My husband wasn't comfortable with doing that
.

I would say that, seeing how the flag was given to the family on(presumably) the occasion of the death of your husbands' father, respecting his wishes regarding that flag should be paramount.
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Postby Valkyrie » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:13 pm

lurker wrote:
I certainly did not mean the current cleptocracy with its' Free Speech Zones and pre-vetted questioners as every public appearance.

Funny that, the Bush admin creating all these Free Speech Zones and yet the only pictures of one that Wikipedia could be assed to post--while bitching about Bush's 'zones' were the cages erected at the 2004 Dem convention.

Wikipedia is not "them". Wikipedia is us. If you disagree with what "they" say (or want to illustrate your point) feel free to edit it. Go ahead and post your own pics if you want something more appropriate (of course, they have to be public domain. Got any public domain pics of what you're talking about?) Of course, you have to back up everything you say or it gets reverted, but you can do that, can't you?
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Tue Oct 30, 2007 4:42 pm

Dear Lurker,
Republicans Eat Shit.
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Postby mdmf007 » Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:05 pm

Im as GOP as they get and have never eaten poo - I pick my nose apparently, but no poo.

later
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