Hey LeChat, What Are You Working On?

Postby LeChatNoir » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:56 am

You can pick up a small 115 volt/135 amp portable gasless welder for under $400. It's uses a flux inside the wire to sheild the weld instead of an inert gas. If you can step up to a 220 volt model, then they'll run anywhere from $500-800.

If you can afford to use a sheilding gas, you'll get cleaner welds, but you have to tote around a gas cylinder. I prefer that method myself, but that doesn't mean the flux-cored stuff doesn't work. Whichever you choose, I'd advise getting a 220 volt if you can, simply because you may want to weld somethig thicker one day.

This place herewill give you a good idea of prices and options.

You can pick up the cheaper ones at the chinese import places, but I'd advise against it.
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Postby BAS » Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:24 pm

Well, unfortunately, that is a bit more than I have available at the time-- we will have to see how the e-Baying of some of my stuff and the job hunt goes.

Then I suppose I should read the "How to Weld" thread over in the other forum! And then hunt for raw materials (St. Vincent dePaul, Goodwill, etc.). :D

...and at some point I suppose I should approach my dad about using his workshop to teach myself welding in... with all the wood in the shop, convincing him might take some doing, and then I'd run the risk of him hogging the welder! :?

Well, it might wind up a 2008 project if I can't swing all the stuff for this year. (A welder would probably come in handy if I can ever get myself a school bus to convert. Esp. if I go wild with the creativity! :wink: )

Gaw! Maybe its a good thing I didn't take the commercial driving instruction permit tests today. My thinking seems to be all over the place. (Spent some time with a friend of mine who is recovering from pneumonia. He hadn't been out of his house in a couple of days, so we went out to eat. Now he's putting some of the comic books I had up on e-Bay for me, so it all worked out nicely. Maybe at some point I should buy him lunch or something.)


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Postby LeChatNoir » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:26 pm

I'd rather put the time in to make it right... and if that means 2008, I'd not sweat it.

So the next contraption update:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

So while figuring out how to make this thing roll and go forward and look cool and puff fire, there was always this little problem in the back of my mind… how to stop it once it got going.

I had at first thought of some sort of modified motorcycle disc brake set up that mounted to the rear axle. There were two problems to this approach, however.

#1) The one-way clutches in the rear hubs meant that the axle would stop, but the wheel would keep rolling.

But more importantly…

#2) This was simply not a wonky enough method of braking

So I began to ponder on ways to apply brakes to the rear wheel rims. Perhaps some sort of friction pad? I couldn’t do it on the outside of the rim, since the rear will actually have rubber tires. And the inside of the rim that was available to apply friction to was smaller than I cared for.

Then Karine walks in the shop and I pose the problem to her and she says, “Why don’t you just put brakes on the front?â€
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Postby karine » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:31 pm

and those are the most beautimous front brakes I never did see!
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Postby gyre » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:34 pm

There is a canadian brake design that clamps to both sides of a cylindrical rotor, like a drum from the outside but a caliper like a disc.
As long as you are being different, go all the way.
It has the advantage of being able to fit in very compact spaces.
It clamps to inside and outside of the cylinder portion of the brake 'drum'.
It is not enclosed as a drum is.
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Postby LeChatNoir » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:39 pm

Got specs or a web link?

I'm still able to modify what I've already got if I like it enough.
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Postby Zulegoona » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:45 pm

It still seems like your trying to move a lot of weight with just four people doing the work with a hand pump,..
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Postby gyre » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:58 pm

I have it in my archives somewhere.
I'll look on the netweb.
It's pretty straightforward and overkill for what you are doing, but cool.
Here's a suggestion for a power source.
They have a 750 cc and a 1 litre.
Wonderful sound.
Screw V twins.

http://www.22000rpm.com/index2.html
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Postby LeChatNoir » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:01 pm

5 mph, leverage, and a slight gear advantage...

Railroad handcars have a much higher gear ratio. Granted they have less friction to deal with, but they also move about 12 mph.

I worked on the math for a while to see if it was even remotely possible before starting the project. So far its still looking like it'll work.
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Postby LeChatNoir » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:03 pm

gyre wrote:I have it in my archives somewhere.
I'll look on the netweb.
It's pretty straightforward and overkill for what you are doing, but cool.
Here's a suggestion for a power source.
They have a 750 cc and a 1 litre.
Wonderful sound.
Screw V twins.

http://www.22000rpm.com/index2.html


Green!!! Gotta be human powered, man. Don't need a mutant vehicle license that way. Besides... a motor would be too easy.
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Postby karine » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:07 pm

I hear what you are saying Z - but there will be LOTS of testing...
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Postby Zulegoona » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:07 pm

The leverage and the ability of those of us with weight to put into it pulling down the bar makes it seem possible but hand car have the advantage of being able to glide a little on the rails,... just hoping the wonderful contraption doesn’t become a static sculpture.
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Postby LeChatNoir » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:11 pm

It's true... even if you're tired, you can let gravity do some of the work.

I'm sort of keeping my fingers crossed too, Z. But its a "confident in my own insanity" sort of finger crossing.
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Postby Tiahaar » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:30 pm

LeChatNoir! What you offhandedly crafted in a few days time in those custom brake assemblies is like high-end CAD-CAM stuff. Brilliant! (ok fess up there's got to be an automated NC plasma cutter involved 'cause freehanding those things would be...well, you'd be immortal and all. Even the code for the parts is nice work if its NC, looks sweet. Kudos!)

Big diameter wide hard tires like you're using should do fine on hard playa. I'm hoping for nice hardpan out there again this year too. If you run across some flat belt pulleys they will eat less power than a v-belt drive.
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Postby BAS » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:27 am

So while figuring out how to make this thing roll and go forward and look cool and puff fire, there was always this little problem in the back of my mind… how to stop it once it got going.


You know, that's a very good point! :shock: I would need to think about that, too. Hmmm. :?

#2) This was simply not a wonky enough method of braking


I read this and immediately thought of a cannon to fire a stake into the ground...! :D (That'd be a bit too wonky, probably.)


Judging by the pictures, you are doing really nice work on your contraption! Keep it up! 8)


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Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:42 am

Its true...

I've made plywood templates before and gotten great results, but these forms had OD's and ID's that had to line up pretty close. Templates work better with solid forms, so these pieces were, in fact, CNC plasma cut at a shop down the road. I did the design of the plates in a cad program and went down to that shop and we cut them out.

Before I whacked stuff with a hammer for a living, I used to program/setup and run CNC machining centers. I try to do as much as possible in shop, but will use CNC when it makes sense. The total time from the thought of the design to the assembling the hubs was about three days of evening work.

I'm glad you think those wide tires will work as well. I think they will perform pretty well, expecially with the diameter. The back wheels will have a wide tire similar to what's pictured on the hayrakes a page or too back, and the front will be just the steel tires as pictured. They have an interesting profile... taller at the edges than in the middle.
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Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Apr 03, 2007 7:45 am

BAS wrote:I read this and immediately thought of a cannon to fire a stake into the ground...! :D (That'd be a bit too wonky, probably.)


AHHAAAA I am howling with laughter!

What a terrific idea!!!! It needs an emergency brake, you know...
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:20 am

LaC, Do you already have a action to set you new brake??If not, Think of seal ring that go's on 55gal. drum ..
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Postby gyre » Tue Apr 03, 2007 8:28 am

Clever.
My nickel plated drums have a cast handle on the rings.
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Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:20 pm

LaC, Do you already have a action to set you new brake??If not, Think of seal ring that go's on 55gal. drum ..


I did think of using something similar. I remember seeing go-kart brakes with a strap around a drum much like what you're talking about.

The only thing that stopped me was figuring out what kind of material to use as the friciton pad/strap. Steel will just gall up and mess up the drums. Don't know what the go-kart type brakes used. I knew that the railroad handcars I've seen used wooden shoes in a design similar to what I'm using.

Any ideas for a friction pad material that might work better?
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Postby gyre » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:26 pm

Leather?
Can't you buy glue on brake pad material somewhere?
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:40 pm

LeChatNoir wrote:
LaC, Do you already have a action to set you new brake??If not, Think of seal ring that go's on 55gal. drum ..


I did think of using something similar. I remember seeing go-kart brakes with a strap around a drum much like what you're talking about.

The only thing that stopped me was figuring out what kind of material to use as the friciton pad/strap. Steel will just gall up and mess up the drums. Don't know what the go-kart type brakes used. I knew that the railroad handcars I've seen used wooden shoes in a design similar to what I'm using.

Any ideas for a friction pad material that might work better?


/
How about flat belt "scuffed" up for more surface..It's now like you'll be smoking these brakes that often..Or some knurling on the metal hub..That would give it some bite..
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Postby Lassen Forge » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:57 pm

You want real external contracting drum brakes that really work? This is what you use. Period.

Go to a napa auto parts store and get a roll of woven Automatic Transmission Band Lining (Hydramatic? Torqueflite? Mopar 300? Your guess is good as mine there. It works extremely well as brake material (since that's what it is), is flexible, and wil l last as long as you're on the playa. Rivet your attachment point to each end, when you tighten it up around the drum it will stop you.

Or - google "antique car parts" and buy the rivet in brake lining, again, in a roll so you have lengths long enough.

Want it to last longer (like virtually until BRC 2025)? Rivet it on steel brake shoe backing (like a thick steel band) hooked to your linkage and you have real honest to god brakes like I got on the old car. And those will stop 3/4 of a ton going downhill. Use the brake bonding adhesive and/or brass rivets and don't worry about stopping.

This is 100 year old technology and it works. 20 million cars over 20+ years proved that. Smooth steel drums, just make sure they're real brake drums that're thick enough to absorb the heat.

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Postby gyre » Tue Apr 03, 2007 1:48 pm

DMV approval is strict but it is based on 5 mph.
You should be okay out there.
Will you be going faster elsewhere?
Didn't someone use an anchor they threw out?
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Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:21 pm

gyre wrote:DMV approval is strict but it is based on 5 mph.
You should be okay out there.
Will you be going faster elsewhere?
Didn't someone use an anchor they threw out?


This is strictly a 5 mph human powered vehicle. Never any need to take it to town for groceries, so I don't anticipate the brakes having a lot of heat to deal with. I like the idea of buying brake lining by the roll though.

I'm going to check into that Transmission band lining too, Sue. That's a great idea.
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Postby Gravity Mike » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:19 pm

LeChatNoir wrote:
LaC, Do you already have a action to set you new brake??If not, Think of seal ring that go's on 55gal. drum ..


I did think of using something similar. I remember seeing go-kart brakes with a strap around a drum much like what you're talking about.

The only thing that stopped me was figuring out what kind of material to use as the friciton pad/strap. Steel will just gall up and mess up the drums. Don't know what the go-kart type brakes used. I knew that the railroad handcars I've seen used wooden shoes in a design similar to what I'm using.

Any ideas for a friction pad material that might work better?


Hey LeChat,

I'm building my own human-powered 'contraption' this year as well, and I in fact am using those external drum go-kart brakes. They're made of hard rubber. I'm a little worried about brake drag (as I intend to race this vehicle in some non-BM venue).

For your application I might consider a leather or rubber strap, depending what breaking force you need. A wood shoe won't have as wide of a contact area as a strap and require more force to apply effectively. I'm not sure if you could glue (shoe goo might be best, the great properties of this substance are the subject of other eplaya threads) your own old tire tread onto a fabric or leather strap - with that hold? The hard rubber on my go-kart brakes are bonded really well to the metal band (which is needed to hold the rubber away from the drum - leather should have minimal passive drag, but will it brake well enough?).

I really like the railroad hand car idea. I've thought of doing that with old bicycles, but it's waiting in the queue with several other projects...

Image

Check out http://www.stanford.edu/~saleski/ for a so-far project summary.

I'm recalling last year's "tracked vehicle construction" thread with Tiahar and... DOH! I remember the tongue-vehicle avatar!! Anyhow, it's all good!

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Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:10 pm

Gravity Mike,

That is a great project, man. I like the wide range of gearing your employing and the ATV tires are a good effect. You’re binging this to the playa right?

And for a better MIG weld, try going vertical down whenever you can. Point your gun up slightly and don’t be afraid to move it from side to side a little too. The force of the arc will keep the puddle held up and it will flow out better. Ideally, you want it to look like you pressed putty down into the corner. Ideally, I say. This is not always the case.
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Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:22 pm

Ok Sue…

I went to the shop tonight and did some testing. As aesthetically pleasing as the wood shoes are, after thinking about everyone’s comments on the strap type brakes, I think I’m going to modify my mounts to work with them instead. I really wrestled with this while looking at the work I’d already put into the brake design. I tried a piece of leather on the brake shoe and that really made a big difference, but the other tests I did made my mid up for me. Ultimately I’m the type of guy who can accept when it makes sense to try a different approach, regardless of time already invested in something.

What clinched it for me was when I took a strap of leather and wrapped it around the drum. With only hand pressure holding it snug, I took the wheel and tried to turn it. The leather stayed bound to the drum and I think would have broken before it let loose. I’m going to search out the woven brake strap you told me about tomorrow. I’ve no doubt that this type of brake band, with a metal strap backing it up, would lock up the front wheels on this thing given enough pressure.

But in the mean time… I’ve been working on the rear wheels and a reverse gear.

Stay tuned.
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Apr 03, 2007 9:33 pm

My son picked up a very old hand truck/dolly..Inside side of the wheels have a small brake drum about 4 inch..There was a bar welded above the drums..The brake strap was Vbeting..It went around the drums and up to a moveable bar that served both sides..Then a cable up to a triger handle just below the hand trucks handle.. It's pretty old and rusted but I'll photo it for you if yuor intersted
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Postby Gravity Mike » Wed Apr 04, 2007 7:59 am

LeChatNoir wrote:Gravity Mike,

That is a great project, man. I like the wide range of gearing your employing and the ATV tires are a good effect. You’re binging this to the playa right?


Absolutely it's coming to the burn!!!! Although I don't specifically mention BM on my little blog...

Thanks for the welding tips, I'll put those to work. I realize that the work is uggly, but things seem to hold. If I have any doubt on critical welds, I grind them down and re-fill them up. You might recall my crazy bicycle projects from last year (my learning to weld projects). They all held with one exception, and that was welding to a 1/2" solid rod with a 90 amp wire/flux welder...

I'm pretty amped about your project too, looks great! The giant fly wheel will be fantastic. Hope to see it out there.

I'll keep you posted...

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