theCryptofishist wrote:Smenkare might be talking about creeps who don't cross that threshhold. Of course, that may not qualify as a creep in your view. I'm not going to say that creep is in the eye of the beholder, but nonetheless, there is probably a range of where we draw our lines.
What I mean is, there are a lot of people on the playa who come from different backgrounds.
One woman's creeper is another woman's boyfriend/husband. There are guys at the burn who come off creepy. Once you get to know them, you don't feel creeped out at all. It's just sometimes when a big sweaty naked guy wants to give me a hug with his doodle half cocked, I'm a little put off at first. Does that mean he's a creep guy overall? No.
Other times, there are guys that seem polite and nice, even the sort of person you might consider to be a friend...but as you get to know them better, they start to creep you out. They might not cross all the way over the line, but they're the kind of people you have to watch yourself around.
Lord Of Ruin wrote:Please don't misunderstand this post as defending the guy in any way.
But as a guy, it's really awful to have a misunderstand paint you with a brush you might not have deserved. Here's how I'd like it handled if I were the proposed creeper, but perhaps wasn't really.
Woman in question that feels like I may have gone over the line goes to someone in a position of authority. Camp organizer, Ranger, etc. CO would be my choice.
Woman in question asks CO to meet in private. Explains situation and her hesitance to speak up. CO decides if they want more than one organizer to attend meeting.
CO, offendee and creeper meet in private. Offendee discusses her concerns, creeper gives his sad tale of drunken woe, etc. Offendee says, with the support of CO, in very clear terms what she does not want/welcome. CO makes sure all parties understand.
If offendee or others then report any other behavior, creeper is asked to leave camp. If he won't, tell creeper you're calling Rangers/BLM and offendee will file a report if he doesn't find new digs.
Offendee still has the chance to escalate/use loud voice if creeper does something, but this also allows for someone going to BM and having alcohol cloud their understanding of the somewhat more flexible mores that appear to be in evidence there. No definately means no, but it IS quite possible to misunderstand the sexualized culture of BM, especially to someone not used to such counterculture events. I am reminded of this by the reactions of friends when I bring them as my guest to other "BM-esque" events.
A guy might not think he's being creepy and the man in question in my camp was polite and reasonably in control of himself when he was sober. I can't order someone to stop drinking--even if they get out of control when they do--because it's their life. What I can do is approach that person when they're sober and tell them, "Hey, what you did last night hurt me, and this is why." What bothers me is that when we--his "offendees" approached him about the issue, he blew us off and dismissed us as it being a "misunderstanding." Clearly me and the other two women who he groped and slobbered over that night are social dyslexics because we misunderstood him, he must have just been an overly friendly drunk? I appreciate that you want to protect him from us hysterical women folk, but we're not all a bunch of over-reactive dithering sparkle ponies and we didn't take him out into the street, kick him in his nuts and take turns beating him with fry pans and rolling pins to get our honor back. The whole exchange was pretty civilized, at least on our end. Furthermore the perpetrator doesn't get to select "his preferred form of remediation," we talked to him in a polite and private manner away from the main part of camp. It should have ended there. It didn't. We had to get the CO involved and that caused some drama because the offender didn't think he'd done anything wrong. If the "offender" respected us as human beings in the first place, things wouldn't have escalated that night. If he was a responsible man, he would have apologized the next morning and not blamed it on the booze which he chose to drink. If he had an ounce of sense, he would have dialed back the boozing for the rest of the week. He didn't.
I didn't go to the meeting with the CO because the CO didn't witness it. As far as he was concerned, it was a He said She said and She said and She said. I'd aired my bit and I wasn't going to let it ruin my burn. I didn't spend another night alone in my tent, I'd go stay with a friend in another camp. I did what I felt was necessary to make myself feel safe again, even if it was arming myself when I was alone in my own tent.
Honestly, that kind of suggestion that you make there, LoR, steams me even though I am sure you mean well. This guy does not deserve your defense. It's men like him that have ruined it for men like you, because he uses it as a shield. The "I was drunk" excuse to justify one's claim of "misunderstanding" the vocal and non verbal communications of "NO". When you have three women telling you "No" and "Leave me alone" and then pushing you away, it means "Your sexual advances are not welcome here," it's a stretch to claim a misunderstanding then when you grab one or more of those women and pull them back harder and try to force them down on your lap. If a guy doesn't listen to me when I say "NO" and he grabs me, the next thing he gets is a shove or other removal of his hands from me, if that doesn't work, I leave the party/situation before I have to result to violence. That's where things were headed that night and I did not choose/want that. And to be honest, his state of drunkeness nullified his size and strength advantage. And yes, I was making those calculations in my my 100% sober head as I left camp for the Esplanade just in case he decided to follow me.
What my camp was lacking was a public service announcement in the emails that went out for arranging the burn. The CO, bless him for all he does, is probably planning do one next year even without prompting from me or the other two women just because of the drama fest that erupted around this dude. I don't want to radically exclude anyone, but I know this guy will probably come back to the burn again, and we don't have any way of notifying the future camp he stays with that THIS GUY IS A SKETCHY PREDATORY DUDE. That steams me, because someday he's going to go too far and violate someone.
That which does not kill you makes you stranger.