Bicycle question, three-wheelers??

[gyre]

Consider noise.

There is something magical about sailing along silently.

[Canoe]

Consider noise.
There is something magical about sailing along silently.

Big time.
I couldn't cope with a super-loud super-whining ride that sounds like a jumbo-jet winding up.

In addition to smoothing power inputs, belt-drives are also quieter than chain drives.

[gyre]

My chain driven Pana/Giant has some noise, but the motor is virtually silent.
It's not bothersome, though not silent when pedaling.

Some of the cheaper hubmotors drive people off bridges.

The first electric I saw on the playa was a three wheel heinzmann.
They said lack of noise was one reason they chose that make.


Don't forget to consider any loads like passengers, cargo and playa friction.

[gyre]

I couldn't cope with a super-loud super-whining ride that sounds like a jumbo-jet winding up.

In addition to smoothing power inputs, belt-drives are also quieter than chain drives.

I did mention my scooter kit was replaced by a turbine.
Not a joke.

That's why I have the kit, but not the scooter.

[unjonharley]

There are small batteries.

Yup, figure 10ah for going to the store.. Can saddlebag & hook up a couple for longer distance. It's only ten mile across town.

We keep Salem lame..

[gyre]

Sometimes you're the funniest guy on here.

[penrose]

This is a good thread. My friend (first-timer) has developed a badly-timed game leg that precludes much walking or pedaling or standing on a scooter. So an electric-assist tricycle seems to be the answer. The Joyrider looks great but I think we're about out of time for expensive items that need shipping. Tempted to just buy a bare-bones electric trike locally for a few hundred bucks and see if fatter tires can be fit and what other mods can be made in the little time left. I suspect the alkali dust and/or precipitation can be hard on those little motors after a bit. Any other input for this last-minute but necessary project? Thanks.

[Canoe]

Any other input for this last-minute but necessary project? Thanks.

Keep in mind there's a 5 mph speed limit, so you don't need lots of speed.
This also suggests that the Costco 105ah deep cycle lead acid battery would be the best bang for the buck over light & expensive packs, like my 10ah LiFePO4 battery pack.

Fatter tires would be a plus, especially with the reported playa condition this year and the expectation that it will get chewed into dunes pretty quick. Surly tires at 3.7" and wider are likely out, both due to their cost and their frame size requirements, but tires along the lines of Swabe's Big Apple and Fat Frank. The Fat Frank is 26" and 2.35" wide. The Big Apple is 2.0" or 2.15" and is available in 24" and 20", with 20" the most common size I've seen on tricycles. http://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires ... /big_apple Can be expensive, but I got a set in 26" quite cheap online from Utah. I moved on to the 3.7" and wider, so I'm no longer up on the wider tires that fit common frames, so there may be other more economical options out there. Nothing wrong with a used tire, if not damaged.

There are other tweaks or best practices, but it depends on the trike you get.

It may be possible to get a non-motorized tricycle and add a drive to the chain as a quick electric conversion. The cheap way is not the most electrically efficient nor weight efficient, but you're going for a top speed of 5 mph and can use the 105 ah battery...

I'd suggest you find a trike that can take the 2.15" to 2.35" range tires, quick, and then show photos so suggestions can be made.

Of course the used market may have an off-the-shelf electric tricycle available at a reasonable price too. Which would save a lot of time. See if it can take the 12VDC 105 ah battery, which would be a quick and relatively cheap capacity/range enhancement.

[unjonharley]

Took the half rebuilt ReTrke to a bicycle outing yesterday.. Guess it looks good.. Was asked many many questions about it.. It is from the mid to late 80s.. So far the frame has been striped down and power coated.. Cleaned up the other stuff and stuck it back together just for the day.. Lot of other concept bikes were finish just enough to show.. Picked up lots of ideas that kept me up half the night scheming. Have 1943 44 J C Higgens.. Under the crud and top paint it was Army drab olive green. It's ride able right now.. But will take all winter to restore. Looking for parts for a 1962 folding bike.. Great little machine.. Some one painted it real ugly..

[Captain Vanilla]

Let's go, let's go, LET'S GO!!!!!!!!!! (Bump)

Hi FJ

am planning on taking my trike this year to the Playa, its got a front hub elctric motor. Do you have any issues with Playa dust getting into the circuitry and if so what steps would you recommend to protect the wiring ?
Cheers

Oops.

[FIGJAM]

3 years on the playa and no issues!

But my three speed hub for pedaling siezed, so I had to pull the chain and just run on the electric assist.

[unjonharley]

3 years on the playa and no issues!

But my three speed hub for pedaling siezed, so I had to pull the chain and just run on the electric assist.

Get a rehub @ good will and change outt the old one. You cheap skate
Then part out the rest of the bike except the frame.. Put the small parts in marked zip lock bags.. Give the parts to the bike repair people on the playa..

[FIGJAM]

It's a hub like nothing I've seen.

A sprocket for the chain that goes to the pedels, and a sprocket for the chain that goes to the drive wheel.

It's repaired enough for 1 speed instead of 3, and I only need that for 2 wheel drive.

[Elliot]

That is probably a regular bicycle hub with an "output" sprocket welded on. These are common on adult tricycles. In Kinetic Sculpture Racing we weld them up ourselves all the time.

[theCryptofishist]

In Kinetic Sculpture Racing we weld them up ourselves all the time.

Face it, Kinetic Sculpture Racers are a breed apart, taking all sorts of risks.

[FIGJAM]

I think it's a "stromey archer awc".

Replacement is $180.

[Elliot]

Sturmey-Archer is an old friend.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmey-Archer

We had these when I was a lad. A few years ago I tried using them in a Kinetic racer and they broke immediately. But I don't know how old those were. Perhaps newer ones are stronger. Other companies -- Shimano, I think -- now make gear hubs with up to seven or eight gears.

But the three-speed Sturmey-Archer can be found in cheap old bicycles, if you want to play with them. I snap up such bicycles for a dollar or three at garage sales and thrift stores. I can bring you a couple to the Playa.

Edit: Heck, I can ship you a couple now.

[unjonharley]

Your Palmer is a strange trike.. You could change out the three speed with a shaft and five sprocket cluster and "derailer" ( not French ).. Or like the ReTrike has a five speed cluster and derailer on the drive axle. Skip the three speed, go right to the axle..

[FIGJAM]

Your Palmer is a strange trike.. You could change out the three speed with a shaft and five sprocket cluster and "derailer" ( not French ).. Or like the ReTrike has a five speed cluster and derailer on the drive axle. Skip the three speed, go right to the axle..

Maybe YOU could, but I don't think I have the technical skill to do that.

The left rim is pressed on with a pin through it.

That one is powered by the peddels.

The right is mounted with a bearing so that rim can freewheel. (and has the friction drive motor)

[Elliot]

Your Palmer is a strange trike.. You could change out the three speed with a shaft and five sprocket cluster and "derailer" ( not French ).. Or like the ReTrike has a five speed cluster and derailer on the drive axle. Skip the three speed, go right to the axle..

That's how RhoadesCar does it, and the parts are readily available. But you could use a derailer hub in the existing mounting, and weld on the output sprocket. Mounting the derailer itself is not as difficult as you might think, since great precision is not required. Simply mount it to the same bracket as holds the hub, just like on a bicycle. Derailers work fine even up-side-down.

[Tiahaar]

Nice trike Figjam! Did you get your hub swapped out OK? I too have several trikes with a sprocket attached to a bike hub, its a slick way to add gearing. I wanted to be able to pedal in reverse (to get out of jams...heh) on my next rebuild so made it a fixie. Chains only drive the right wheel. The front end can be 1 wheel for a trike or the 2 wheel pivoting axle. I suppose a motor could be put on there but I'm a pedal-power only holdout so far. A pic:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/23693019@N00/8446212265/

[Martiansky]

Tiahaar
That tall bike is very cool!
Do you have any pictures of the sprocket/hub setup to show off by chance?
Does it have a derailer setup to change gears?
It sounds very interesting and worth a try.

[Tiahaar]

Thanks Martiansky! Its going to be even more fun this year because I cut off the lawn mower transmission it used to use (which sucked up legpower) and went with a low geared single-speed. The sprockets are lined up so I can swap chains between a low range (playa) and a high range (for level pavement). I have to loosen the sprockets and move them on the shafts to get ultra-low (for Kinetic Sculpture Racing up sand hills or in mud bogs heh).

On the crank you can see I bolted on a 35 chain sprocket (60 tooth) to the outside of the bike chainwheel. The 35 chain goes to a 24 tooth sprocket on the jackshaft. From there I run 50 chain either in a 21tooth-30tooth (for hi range) or 14tooth-54tooth (low range, what it has now). That extra 54tooth sprocket on the jackshaft is the ultra-low.

No derailers or freewheels so keep the pant legs outa the chains...I need to add chain guards I suppose.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/23693019@N00/8501617699/in/photostream/

[Martiansky]

We trikers are a pretty proselytizing group. I put a trike kit axle on my bike last year, and won't go back to two wheels if I can help it. Like unjon said, the difference in how you have to concentrate on staying up, maintaining speed, and keeping upright through the bumps and drifts on a two wheeler and the relative ease through all this on a trike is a big difference. Getting cutoff on a trike is no big deal, just stop, sit, wait, and go again. You can go a lot slower if you need to, and no worries about falling over. If you want to stop and talk to someone, you still have a place to sit. The cargo capability is another big plus. I haven't tried to fit it on a bike rack yet, it's in pieces, and so is the bike rack. Last year, I actually just dissasembled it and put it inside my little hatchback car. This year, I'd like to get it on the rack as much as possible. I'm hoping it will hold on the outside position on a two bike, bike rack. I didn't get any photos of it, darn that.

Ellorum, Do you have any pictures of your converted bike trike?
And where did you get the conversion kit please?
Ive looked for plans to build your own trike rear end but havent found anything.
Ive looked on AtomicZombie also and they sell some parts but not the rear end.
Theres only a couple of conversion kits offered that arent outrageously priced and they dont include wheels.
Which comes to my next dilemma.....
Trike wheels can be purchased seperately at a price of course, but cant you somehow "make" your own from regular bike wheels? I know they need to be hollow hubs.
I have a trike but Id love to build one off a frame I already have.

[Elliot]

Good questions, Martiansky. You are “thinking right”.

From my point of view…. There is practically no limit to what you can assemble with parts from a myriad of sources, relatively simple tools, and a few tons of ingenuity. I’ve been cobbling together pedal-powered vehicles for a dozen years, and sometimes I amaze myself at what I accomplish – yet I know I am only scratching the surface of what is possible.

I hesitate to even try to contribute to your specific questions, since there are countless ways to approach every detail. There is simply no substitute for experience. I keep dismantling Stuff that I have previously been afraid of, and discovering new wonders that I can make good use of in some way wholly unintended by the manufacturer.

Blah, blah, blah.


Bicycle wheels are not well suited to tricycles. Bicycle wheels are designed to carry loads only in direct line with the wheel, never sideways. When you ride a bicycle around a corner the weight remains directly up-and-down on the wheels because you lean the bicycle to compensate for centrifugal force. And bicycle wheels are made to be light-weight.

So bicycle wheels subjected to sideways force often turn into “tacos”. Or at least potato chips. That is, they suddenly warp beyond all repair.

Better to use sturdier wheels such as garden cart wheels, just as an example. These resemble bicycle wheels but are sturdier, with thicker spokes that are welded in place. They have bicycle-size tires, and they can also be found with solid rubber tires to eliminate punctures.

Motorcycle wheels are fabulous for a pedal-trike. Although they are also engineered for straight-up-and-down loads, they are massively strong for our purpose.

It just dawned on me that spindle-mount front wheels used on dragsters and dune-buggies would be awesome Playa-trike wheels. I’ve seen used ones on eBay. It’s all about brainstorming and discovering.


You say you want to utilize a bicycle frame you already have? That’s how I built this little oddity:


Thanks to Mary Stevens for the photo!

There are still parts of the original frame present. Everything else grew from that like a runaway case of cancerous elephantitis. A key part of the rear axle assembly is a remnant of plain old black pipe from the plumbing aisle at any hardware store. The rear frame members are an old chain-link fence gate.

As for bicycle wheels you already have, some Kinetic Sculpture Racers assemble wide and sturdy wheels by stacking several bicycle wheels together and running a home-made axle thru them all. Bearings must be adapted, but that’s perfectly doable – I would perhaps first look at wheel-barrow bearings.
To stack bicycle wheels, since the hubs are wider than the rims, you use a ratio of complete wheel – rim only – complete wheel. And you tie the rims together with straps of flat stock or whatnot.


All this is great fun, but now I must go to an appointment.

[gyre]

Racing supply houses sell parts for making bearings yourself.

[Martiansky]

Elliot that trike is just plain....COOL!!!!
*Bows head to the mutant bike master*

So, if I tinker with welding a frame kit Im hoping that a little 90 amp wirefeed welder(from HF) will be sufficient?
Thats what we've been using for the bike trailers and pedicart frame. (Using conduit as framing)
Thats all I have at my disposal right now and paying a shop for other types of welding would make it too spendy a venture.

I wondered how those wide wheels were made! 2 wheels with a rim in between.... Brilliant!
What kind of tire do they put on them then to make it a wide single tire?

(Can you weld the end of bike axles onto steel rod and make a trike axle that way?)

[Elliot]

Thanks!

I don't know about your welder.

With stacked bicycle wheels they retain the bicycle tires. A bit time-consuming to fix a flat on the middle one!

I suppose you could make an axle that way, but I would be inclined to cut threads on a rod so you don't have to depend on a difficult weld. Or use all-thread rod -- crude though.

[Elorrum]

Martiansky, I can't find the site exactly for where I got my trike conversion kit. It was on ebay, and my searches aren't bringing it up. I went with a kit that came with both wheels, a long chain, a three speed cluster and a derailleur (pos part that... I need a new one) plus a roller brake on the axle.
looks sort of like this.

[Martiansky]

Ellorum, the kit in your picture is looks like the same one that Ive been looking at!
I remember seeing that kit on ebay a couple years ago too.
They arent on there anymore but if you go to
http://www.tricycle-bicycle.com they have the kit but no longer offer them with 3 or 6 speed clusters.
I called that store in Colorado today and the guy said they had problems with the 3 and 6 speeds and
are no longer carrying them. He wasnt overly helpful either.
Thats too bad because I think a single speed isnt the way to go and if they were having issues just with the derailer
then they shouldve just changed to a different brand.
Is the derailer the only issue youve had with it?
I was looking online for a 3 speed cluster like you have on yours to maybe trade out with the single one thats on the ONE kit they still offer and no luck.(and im not even sure it would work to swap them out)
BUT I got to thinking....scary.....what if you had a bike with 2 or 3 gears up front and just ran a derailer to take up the slack in the chain utilizing just the single speed freewheel in the back? Wouldnt that work to make it into a multi gear?
None of the conversion kits lister on ebay come with the wheels or chain either.
Amazon has a 3 mag wheel set for tricycles for just over a hundred but then thats racking up the bill which is what I was trying to stay away from.

Elliot, the wirefeed welder has worked so far on the bike trailers and pedicab frame for welding conduit together.
I guess if it wont work then I have to go with a conversion kit.