Interesting read--open sale may be cancelled.

[vargaso]

I find it pretty ironic that some of you conclude that "birgin" is an abused term, while at the same time you have no problem tossing around the word "spectator" as if it had some objective meaning. Let me ask you something:

If these "spectators" are such a menace, who do we cut?

Is someone still a "spectator" because they only brought shit for their own camp? Sure that dude hauled in all the camp's tent infrastructure on their trailer. They really pulled their weight for the camp! But who else benefited besides the camp members?

If "participation" means you need to affect others outside your camp, what if they brought a bottle of vodka for their public bar, are they now "contributors" and not "spectators"?

What about someone who shows up in their Honda and a tent, no camp, and yet does some cool belly dancing in some remote part of the playa for only a few people? Is that enough? Or does it, you know, have to affect more than a certain arbitrary number of people?

Are they theme camp participants? Is that it? Because we never had our camp elevated to "theme camp" status, but we had some neat shit that was open for others to participate in. Even a MV--one anybody could get on. We did try to do our best, but still not a theme camp. So we're out? Or no?

Is a participant someone who makes a MV only they can ride in? They did go through all that work, and it looks nice, but who else gets to ride it?

What about the people who have big speakers. Are you a "participant" because you chose to blare your crappy dubstep into the neighborhood? Certainly many people got to "participate" in your music.

What about the people who spent a lot of time on their own costumes, but not much else? A pretty sparklepony with a cool costume. Is that a spectator, or a participant?

Is it about what skills you brought to the playa? What if you're some raver burgin, but you're good at braiding peoples' hair. So you braid peoples' hair and they're pretty happy about that. You didn't bring anything but yourself and your handiwork. Does that meet the bar?

Or is it about giving away shit? Like some dude riding around giving darktards lights, is that guy really cutting it? He's giving away relatively cheap manufactured shit, and probably just doing it to meet girls, but hell, he gave away shit! Is he meeting the "participant" bar?

So what is the "standard" here?

You must be into steampunk and yelling witty things like "Fuck yer day!" If you meet those criteria, you're in!

[RevDusty]

Radical Inclusion. "Spectators" one year may contribute sheer awesomeness in later years. I've always told newbies to not worry about creating/giving something in their first year out there. They can always find some way to help someone on playa, when they get there.

Sometimes, that random encounter with one or two people becomes the most memorable for years and years.

I'd just like to know that the majority of tickets got into the hands of people who plan on attending, and not to speculators/scalpers.

[RedHeaven]

I do know of about a dozen "speculators" who have tix but they are not sure if they are going or not, they've never been, but this fiasco is turning them off. I can see how it would be a frustrating year for Burgins. (I think thats a nice term) Some speculating is natural....I would be too if I have never been.

[BlackRockCityPimp]

Radical Inclusion. "Spectators" one year may contribute sheer awesomeness in later years. I've always told newbies to not worry about creating/giving something in their first year out there. They can always find some way to help someone on playa, when they get there.

Sometimes, that random encounter with one or two people becomes the most memorable for years and years.

I'd just like to know that the majority of tickets got into the hands of people who plan on attending, and not to speculators/scalpers.

Last year some campmates broke down in a bad way on the way to BRC. I was like wtf how are we gonna get the dome built etc etc. The playa provided 3 first year burners that busted ass and got shit done without asking or wanting for anything. All 3 wound up being fire fanatics with fire toys AND not one caused probs or were a burden in any way. They even stayed to help tear down and playa restoration. My point being, not all first yrs are ravers and spectators. Every yr there are people all across the planet that turn 18/21. They dont all listen to dubstep.

[domitron]

I'm not into raves much at this time in my life, but what's wrong with ravers anyway? Too young for you? You know not all of us can be old farts. Oh and on a related note, what's wrong with dubstep? Would everyone rather we got stuck in the 2000s psytrance or maybe that's too new for you too and you need techno. Hell, maybe we should have never moved past Kraftwerk! I'm not knocking any of that music--I have a wide range of appreciation musically--but times change and new music comes, like it or not. What if all the Bluegrass lovers started talking shit about all the music at Burning Man, including whatever you like, because the Bluegrass scene wasn't well represented.

[jorgebongo]

This virgin cooks a mean omelet see ya in 2013 participate shit I'll show you participate.

[ZaphodBurner]

I find it pretty ironic that some of you conclude that "birgin" is an abused term, while at the same time you have no problem tossing around the word "spectator" as if it had some objective meaning. Let me ask you something:

If these "spectators" are such a menace, who do we cut?

Spectators. For fucksake. Anybody who shows up on Friday expecting the city to be built for them, and plans to leave on Sunday in time for somebody to take it down for them. In 2005, we put a flowerpot on our bar. Somebody put a gift in it, then somebody else, and pretty soon we had to fill it because it was overflowing. In 2010, we put a flowerpot on our bar. People rifled through it, took what they wanted, or asked us questions like "I'm looking for lube. Do you guys have any lube?" People approached us for schwag, weed, acid, mushrooms, ecstacy, elaborate cocktails... what the fuck?! We're not a drug dispensary.

Spectator DOES have objective meaning. If you can't figure out what a spectator is, go to a concert. Do you think that Black Rock City would be less-awesome if they closed the gates Wednesday at midnight?

"Look, this is an emotional moment for all of us, okay? I know that. But, let's not make snap judgments, please. This is clearly an important species we're dealing with and I don't think that you or I, or anybody, has the right to arbitrarily exterminate them" -Burke, Aliens

[ZaphodBurner]

I'm not into raves much at this time in my life, but what's wrong with ravers anyway? Too young for you? You know not all of us can be old farts.

Look at where all the trash was that people had to pick up after the camps left:
http://burningblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp- ... Y-NINE.gif

The real problem is not people who like rave music or dancing--although there are complaints about the endless thumping, I guess--but a disproportionate percentage of them that treat Burning Man like it's Ibiza or somewhere, and ONLY come out to rave. It's a Sparkle Pony Extravaganza and if you haven't been there you don't understand yet.

I'm 43, and hang out with ravers in their '50s. And, believe it or not, you CAN be an old fart, if you just try. We try not to. Also, we don't piss off our neighbors, pass out in their camps 'cause we're lost, go on three-day ecstacy binges that require adults in the medical camps to take care of us, we don't urinate on the playa, we don't tag people's art, and we try to leave the place cleaner than we left it when we're done dancing.

All we ask, as citizens of Black Rock City, is the same in courtesy in return, and it doesn't matter if you're a raver, hippie, a kid, an old fart or a virgin.

[ZaphodBurner]

This virgin cooks a mean omelet see ya in 2013 participate shit I'll show you participate.

There you go! There was a camp near us serving oatmeal in handmade bowls, (my treasured "Eat in peace" bowl), some newbies next to us serving, like, 50 pounds of bacon every morning, and the Mohammad camp behind them serving Bloody Marys, and people would come in with their full plates and eat their breakfast at the tables we had out on the 9 o'clock plaza. Every morning was fucking perfect. Burning Man is about participant-art, and artist-participants LOVE FOOD.

Don't forget the food permit from the great state of Nevada. A lot of people have been burned by that. You're going to need a way to handle your gray water (gray-water evaporators are a peculiar science of BRC) and food waste, most people aren't going to bring their own plates, so, I recommend a sign that says BRING YOUR OWN DISHES, which will allow you to serve more, clean less, and simplify the permit process.

[junglesmacks]

FYI Marian was just live on the radio in Sacramento reporting that more information would be made publicly available by the end of today or tomorrow regarding the resolution decision. They're still working on what to do about the 10k open sale. There is indeed a chance that it may get cancelled and the tickets distributed. She alluded to eplaya and (what I took as) this very thread and how as we are talking though this, so are they.

[The CO]

JSmacks-Links/stream?

[domitron]

I'm not into raves much at this time in my life, but what's wrong with ravers anyway? Too young for you? You know not all of us can be old farts.

Look at where all the trash was that people had to pick up after the camps left:
http://burningblog.s3.amazonaws.com/wp- ... Y-NINE.gif

The real problem is not people who like rave music or dancing--although there are complaints about the endless thumping, I guess--but a disproportionate percentage of them that treat Burning Man like it's Ibiza or somewhere, and ONLY come out to rave. It's a Sparkle Pony Extravaganza and if you haven't been there you don't understand yet.

I'm 43, and hang out with ravers in their '50s. And, believe it or not, you CAN be an old fart, if you just try. We try not to. Also, we don't piss off our neighbors, pass out in their camps 'cause we're lost, go on three-day ecstacy binges that require adults in the medical camps to take care of us, we don't urinate on the playa, we don't tag people's art, and we try to leave the place cleaner than we left it when we're done dancing.

All we ask, as citizens of Black Rock City, is the same in courtesy in return, and it doesn't matter if you're a raver, hippie, a kid, an old fart or a virgin.

I'm 41, so not far behind you. I don't think we are talking about ravers here. I think we are talking about irresponsible ignorant burners who don't get it yet. The word "raver" seems to have a lot of negative associations, but I don't think it should. Burning Man gives middle-aged folks, like me, the opportunity to enjoy dancing in a rave-like scene without feeling like a pervert for being older than 25 there. In that sense _I_ am a raver at Burning Man. That is why when someone gets down on burning man ravers, I am offended.

If the large sound camps draw a lot of kids who don't know about Burning Man, then so be it. At least these kids are in one place and people who do know what Burning Man is all about can pass out light gadgets, give light shows (I have this amazing 4000-LED highly computerized coat that my brother engineered that blows people away), and promote a set of behaviors that are appropriate for the playa by example if nothing else. I don't think disparaging comments toward anyone or any group is helpful.

Look it's hard to leave Burning Man not wanting to help the event out more given all the love you’ve probably received, so it's our duty as veteran burners to promote those feelings of goodwill into action by setting an example. It is not our duty to turn our nose up and make people feel like they aren't welcome because there are some ignorant fools in the mix. And when the message gets through the trash scene will disappear; it’s simply a symptom of ignorance, not malevolence.

[junglesmacks]

JSmacks-Links/stream?

It was on capradio.org about 45 mins ago live. A friend posted on FB and I jumped over in time to catch most of it. Not sure if they could get a transcript.. It was pretty interesting.

[The CO]

Sweet, I'll check it out.

[junglesmacks]

I just contacted them and they said that a transcript could be made available in a couple of days..

[fenwick]

Transcript? - one can listen.....

http://www.capradio.org/news/insight/20 ... he-beatles

or download the 9MB audio file and listen to the "swiss cheese"

http://ia600803.us.archive.org/32/items ... 20209a.mp3

[lemur]

I AM OUTRAGED..by her calm demeanor and how well spoken she was and how she seemed to give off the feeling of actually caring!!!

[ZaphodBurner]

I don't think we are talking about ravers here. I think we are talking about irresponsible ignorant burners who don't get it yet. The word "raver" seems to have a lot of negative associations, but I don't think it should. Burning Man gives middle-aged folks, like me, the opportunity to enjoy dancing in a rave-like scene without feeling like a pervert for being older than 25 there. In that sense _I_ am a raver at Burning Man. That is why when someone gets down on burning man ravers, I am offended.

Wow! That's good stuff! I sure hope I haven't offended you because I completely agree with you here.

Black Rock City has its own evolving lexicon for a reason, I guess. "Raver" is a broad, inaccurate default-world generalization of an entire subset of narrow, accurate generalizations such as Sparkle Pony, Candy Raver, E-tard, and {middle-aged burners who don't want to feel like perverts for liking to dance to trance music on the edges of Black Rock City.}

[Sheyanah]

I like BBadger's post on the previous page: Where do we draw the line as far as who is considered a "spectator" and how do we guage how much "participation" is considered enough? I am in agreement that BM should do something to help fix this mess regarding the theme camps and art teams who are dedicated & so vital to the community... but on that same note I really REALLY hope that the open sale is not cancelled in March!! (at least not all 10,000 of the tickets promised!!) My fiance & I did not partake in the lottery due to the fact that we had to wait until our tax return came in to be able to afford 2 tickets, and of course, the $$ came in about a week after Jan. 22nd. We've been planning on going to Burning Man for the past 3 years, and finally this year we knew we'd have enough funding to make it work, so we decided to make the trip our honeymoon destination. We are getting married on Saturday August 25th and our plan is to take off the next morning & drive til we get to BRC. We live in NW Iowa and plan to drive to Nevada. It is a long trek & an expensive one, and we've had our hearts set on it for over 2 years. This will be our 1st time out, but I don't want anybody to think that we would be useless to the community. I have already talked to burners about contributing to their art (The Pier 2 is something that we'd LOVE to help out with - our whole kitchen is decked out in pirate/sea decor & trinkets that we've made ourselves or hunted down @ various flea markets), Chris is great w/ metal work & has skills in that field, and he is a beautiful singer. I am a painter/sketcher, rollerskater, dancer, and all around creative soul. We both volunteer our time every year as coordinators for our local Zombie Walk, which raises funds for non-profit orgs around our area. We love the principles behind Burning Man, and that is why we made the decision to make it our destination to celebrate our love. Not a lot of people around seem to understand why we'd chose a dried up lake bed in the middle of Nevada as a honeymoon spot - but we knew why. You guys know why too. We are sooo excited to finally make the trip & meet all of you amazing, beautiful souls!! I feel like my heart will break if we don't get to go... we have our $$ in the account, we are very willing to pay the full 3rd tier prices... now we just need the chance. I sincerely hope BM will give us at least the opportunity to purchase 2 tickets, somehow!! Had I any doubts that there would be tickets avail. in the open sale, I would have tried the lottery (and crossed my fingers that the funds would be there when needed!) But because the Jack Rabbit said so, I trusted in the fact that there would be an open sale. I'd be happy w/ 1/2 the 10k left going to camps, and then an open sale of the other 5k. I''ve already got the day off... fingers crossed that I'll get the chance to make this the absolutely most AWESOME year of our lives, and I hope that all of you out there that are in similar situations have a chance too! See you in the dust! <3

[lemur]

[JCarter]

I AM OUTRAGED..by her calm demeanor and how well spoken she was and how she seemed to give off the feeling of actually caring!!!

Dear small mammal,

I am outraged at your outrage. I r incandescent with rage at your outrage. A seething fit of epic anger? I'm doing that right now. I am crying ACID TEARS OF RAGE at your outrage. I am praying to every Lovecraftian deity I know to give you super atomic astral wedgie.

How long have you hated TTITD?!? Why are you the staunch enemy of all that is good, true, and beautiful?

This is not the time for calm, reason, and logic. This is the time for hopelessly elaborate conspiracy theories. I myself think that the Bilderbergers are sitting on all of the tickets and everyone that you see at the Burn is one of THEM.

I think that the regionals are just an excuse to set up mini HAARP generators so that THEY can control everyone's mind in the USA. THEY already have the Burners. Now THEY want the WORLD!

But I've got my nice metal hat. They'll NEVER GET ME.

[jorgebongo]

Don't forget the food permit from the great state of Nevada. A lot of people have been burned by that. You're going to need a way to handle your gray water (gray-water evaporators are a peculiar science of BRC) and food waste, most people aren't going to bring their own plates, so, I recommend a sign that says BRING YOUR OWN DISHES, which will allow you to serve more, clean less, and simplify the permit process.

Hey thanks for the heads up bout the permit! I just want to make this thing work ya know. I really wish I could go this year but I feel that with the ticket debacle and everything even if I could get a ticket it would probably be better for it to go to a long time burner. I am still going to help out with Lustrous In-Dust-rious! and help build some streamline trailers and an art car. Regardless of this silly situation I'm still here for you all and we will make this thing work!

[hotmess]

The idea of now canceling the open sale and rewarding tickets to camps that "make the event" or "deserve tickets" is a bad idea. If this happens Burning Man, in my mind, will become just another festival that has to rely on having guaranteed entertainment for people to enjoy. I say stick with the plan and see what happens. Isn't this one big social experiment anyways? So why not see what happens with the experiment when a new factor is thrown into the mix. Could be the best year ever, could be the worst year ever Who knows?

[theCryptofishist]

I'm with you, Hot Mess...

[hotmess]

Thanks Cryptofisht. I appreciate the support. Was not sure how my comment would be taken.

[theCryptofishist]

There are at least two vocal views on this. I just hope this all ends up as some sort of creative ferment...

[hotmess]

Fermented creativity. I wonder what that would taste like? I think it would be sweet.

[lemur]

i agree as well.. hotmess ...


BUT..

i can also see that the LLC has a great interest in a good relationship with the community.. part of which is theme camps/projects/etc. many of whom dont agree with the whole 'just let it play out as planned' thing..

I think the LLC will probably do whatever is within their power, legally and communitywise, to make this subset of our community feel like their concerns have been addressed .... i dont know how theyll do that, im not sure what ways they can do that..

whatever they do will have to be weighed against the other parts of the community.. who also have concerns

i can get behind them trying to keep the community together, even if it means ditching radical-inclusion, if they were to do that.. but i wish that they wouldnt have to.. like.. really wish they wouldnt have to..

i think the burn would probably be fine without doing something like that..

but.. as is mentioned in the various PR.... the community might not be able to take such a blow..

and really.. burning man is nothing without its community.

[hotmess]

i can get behind them trying to keep the community together, even if it means ditching radical-inclusion, if they were to do that.. but i wish that they wouldnt have to.. like.. really wish they wouldnt have to.

DITTO lemur.

Although where was the LLC in October when everyone was screaming, "PLEASE NO LOTTO!!!!" To say that they are "now listening" feels like a little too late. They made their bed without listening to the suggestions of the community. Now they should lie in it and move on.

[theCryptofishist]

In some sort of ironic, bitter way, if they didn't try and "fix" things, I think we'd have a lot of different creative outlets, maybe more like the 90s. And I don't have a ticket to the year I think that would be a whole different sort of fire... and that year that I don't have a ticket to may never happen.
Blast. I wish I were drunk, then I could blame that incoherence on a chemical state.