How about giving theme camps a certificate for tickets?

[late]

Just a thought. What if, during the burn, theme camps are given certificates for x amount of NONtransferrable tickets, tied to name and ID. That way your core participants are guaranteed tickets.

I hesitate to be elitist in any way, but if a camp can't get it's members there, it will cease being a camp...

This could still be done for this year in a haphazard way, where camps get some preferable treatment to get their core members tickets.

Just a thought and trying to help out!

--Alex

[Dr. Pyro]

I for one would be in favor of that, but only because I head up a theme camp.

[lemur]

#1 Radical Inclusion
Anyone may be a part of Burning Man. We welcome and respect the stranger. No prerequisites exist for participation in our community.

http://www.burningman.com/whatisburning ... iples.html

Radical: ADJ: Relating to or affecting the fundamental nature of something; far-reaching or thorough. fundamental, basic


I think what youre suggesting is more like this:

#1 Superficial Inclusion
Anyone who has been before may be a part of Burning Man. We welcome and respect the stranger, if there is any space left. Some prerequisites exist for participation in our community.

Superficial: ADJ: Existing or occurring at or on the surface: "superficial damage". Without depth, detail

Colonel Grady: "I can no longer receive tactical alterations by voice."

President: "I know that but........"

Colonel Grady: "What you're telling me I've been specifically ordered not to do."

President: "Damn it, Grady. This is the President."

[late]

Yes, it's slightly exclusionary, but surely a limited certificate process isn't THAT far. I mean, the core workers get tickets, and no one would consider not getting THEM tickets.

If only 30% of those that try out for tickets can go, and theme camps/ art installations don't tend to have 3x the amount of people they need, they'll ALL be understaffed and unable to go. And you're left with what? A bunch of people disconnected camping in a desolate desert?

disclaimer: I'm not in any theme camp, and I did get tickets, and I WILL be participating. This isn't out of some anger of not getting tickets

[Mojojita]

This is a fine idea, as long as the same thing happens for all the volunteers that work their asses off that don't live in a theme camp..... where exactly do you suppose THAT line should be drawn?

[vargaso]

I'm not in favor of this because it's a means to guarantee the same thing will happen every year, which to me, is the complete antithesis of Burning Man. Aside from basic infrastructure, it's better if things are in flux every year, in my opinion. It's a big change, but I kind of like it, even though I didn't get a fucking ticket yet, goddammit, ha. It is somewhat comforting to see the same old thing out there year after year, but it's more exciting to see something new. There will be new art, as always, and this year, there will be new variations on theme camps.

Going forward, this is how things will be regardless of what ticketing solution is in place as long as demand exceeds supply, unless the BMORG starts handing out tickets to theme camps, which as stated, I'm against. Doesn't matter if it's a lottery or first-come first serve, from now on it's uncertain who will get a ticket straight off.

[remi]

I'm not in favor of this because it's a means to guarantee the same thing will happen every year, which to me, is the complete antithesis of Burning Man. Aside from basic infrastructure, it's better if things are in flux every year, in my opinion. It's a big change, but I kind of like it, even though I didn't get a fucking ticket yet, goddammit, ha. It is somewhat comforting to see the same old thing out there year after year, but it's more exciting to see something new. There will be new art, as always, and this year, there will be new variations on theme camps.

Going forward, this is how things will be regardless of what ticketing solution is in place as long as demand exceeds supply, unless the BMORG starts handing out tickets to theme camps, which as stated, I'm against. Doesn't matter if it's a lottery or first-come first serve, from now on it's uncertain who will get a ticket straight off.

I agree with the above. I would consider giving preferentual treatment to new, MASSIVE art installations... for example: I belive last year`s trojan horse was a first.. if there was something in the works like that, I would love for BM to put aside a dozen or so tickets to the core builders that are putting hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars into their project.. If someone has a huge, massive, new idea, it wouldn`t mind if they received 15 tickets for their core builders. Theme camps.. not so much.

[The CO]

I've run the same theme camp continuously* since 1999.
I absolutely do NOT support the idea that theme camps should get special treatment for tickets.
Several of our people don't have tickets. Tickets will either be found or not. The camp will go on, because we know how to adapt.

*except 2009, which I missed, and somehow the camp got along just fine...

Radical inclusion doesn't say anything about theme camps.
If any given theme camp "can't do the burn because they don't have enought people" then too fuckin bad. Maybe #yourcamp needs to #prioritize.

Phuket. Phurthermore, if anyone thinks that BRC will "fail" without well established theme camps, you're doing it wrong. Where the fuck do you think theme camps came from? They did not spring from the forehead of Zues, some virgin had an idea. And that idea grew. And in some cases, that idea ran its course and the camp folded.

Call it evolution, community growth, whathefuckever. New blood keeps this event alive.

[gibson_]

Yeah? How big do I have to be to be a theme camp?

Can I be a monkey hut theme camp where I bring my monkey hut and shitty vodka to the playa?

[lucky420]

The CO
I absolutely do NOT support the idea that theme camps should get special treatment for tickets.
Several of our people don't have tickets. Tickets will either be found or not. The camp will go on, because we know how to adapt.

@late you kinow when this little shindig in the desert started there were no theme camps and everybody had a grand time. So theme camps may be a little diminished this year (or not) and some camps may take the year off (or not). But it will still be fun! Just because someone is a member of a theme camp should not give them preferential treatment. There's a whole bunch of us who don't belong to theme camps but who do contribute to the event by volunteering, making small art and gifting. I understand your wanting to help with your solution but.......no bueno.

[lemur]

If only 30% of those that try out for tickets can go, and theme camps/ art installations don't tend to have 3x the amount of people they need, they'll ALL be understaffed and unable to go.

they only wont be able to go if they plan on creating a camp that is unsustainable with the amount of resources they have available.. and/or if they are unwilling to accept change..

maybe larry H. and the LLC REALLY want a man base 1000' feet tall... with 1 million participants..

he isnt scrapping building a man because he doesnt have the resources to do a 1000' foot tall one...and he isnt scrapping burning man because every person on earth cant attend.. he does what is possible considering the resources available.

why should theme camps be any different? why should they only see their participation as what they /want/ to do, or even, what they /have/ been doing..... maybe that 300 person theme camp isnt possible this year.. ive seen plenty of smaller camps that were awesome.. why not make a smaller camp?


theme camps should be able to live within their means...doesnt everyone else?

isnt this whole doing it in the desert thing some big radical experiment where we are out in the middle of nowhere making due with what we have? it surely could be made easier.. how are we challenging ourselves if we can't even adjust to change?

if you were out on the playa and some shit broke.. youd likely figure it out with what you have available.. I dont really think anyone would plan to do something they know 100% they were understaffed to do, didnt have the manpower for etc....

Well, right now we have 6 months to figure it out with what we have available.. And in a month, or two.. with STEP and the Open sale.. maybe things will get a bit better... Whatever the case may be.. we gotta make due with what resources we have available, all of us..

and ya kno? sometimes stuff doesnt work out.. some projects end up shitty, some things break.. shit happens.. how many failed projects or broken things have you seen out there.. ? ..probably a lot.. We dont deserve to succeed the same as we did in years past every year

remember Mechabolic from 2007? http://www.wired.com/underwire/2007/08/burning-man-the/ im not sure if they EVER got THAT thing going... cool idea though.. they tried to make it happen with the resources available.. they didnt give up before even giving a try..



what it really comes down to, unless the LLC caves and starts giving tickets out to theme camps to make sure they show up... Is that this year we are gonna have to make due, maybe even scale back our huge hopes and dreams.. Burning Man is still Burning Man even if we dont have a big ass line of fuckin giant 250 person theme camps..

We have over 700 theme camps at burning man... Some of them are HUGE, some arent.. but they are all capable of living within their means and making due with the resources available.. Just because you went big and playarific in the past doesnt mean you have to do it every year..

and well.. maybe you dont make it.,.. it aint the end of the world..burning man would be just fine without any theme camps.. theres more to participating than building some big monstrosity..

[late]

Hmm, good points all. Liking this conversation.

I'm sure my perception is colored by all the theme camps (art installations? whatever) complaining they're below base needed staff and won't be able to go/get their stuff there. Maybe some will still be able to go but don't have as much impetus to comment.

And maybe it would be just as great without any art or camps, just a bunch of people camping, but I doubt it. And I SEVERELY doubt it would be as great if the majority of the attendants become rich tourists, because the artsy types can't afford a ticket from the scalpers.

But either way, it'll be a new experience for sure and that itself is good!

--Alex

[Minxy]

As much as a bummer I think it will be for theme camps to not have all their members, I am against them receiving preferential treatment about tickets.

Burning Man is so much more than theme camps. The personal interactions with small camps and individual art projects can be just as profound as a "theme camp" experience, IMO.

[Trishntek]

Theme camp creation and participation is completely voluntary. If conditions prohibit or inhibit participation by some members of the community, then we either adjust accordingly or un-volunteer. There are no guarantees and that is what keeps each year unique. People change, art works change, camps change. The only constant is the barren landscape of the playa and the blank canvas it provides for humanity to express itself. We can only do what we can do with what we have and the people available. One upside of fewer people in the camp is more shade for everyone! It reminds me of one of my personal truisms: "Life is Exciting, is it not?"

[ZaphodBurner]

]\

I think what youre suggesting is more like this:

#1 Superficial Inclusion
Anyone who has been before may be a part of Burning Man. We welcome and respect the stranger, if there is any space left. Some prerequisites exist for participation in our community.

Imagine a bunch of radically-included ticket-holding strangers standing around gawking at some naked girl in the space where a Temple, or Do Lab, or giant fire-breathing steampunk octopus used to be, and the only reason they know about it is because they saw it on YouPorn or read about it in Playboy.

Imagine a playa filled with bikes instead of large Mutant Vehicles.

Meh. If you want to radically-include an overwhelming mob of drunken camera-wielding spectators, I recommend Mardi Gras. It's free.

[Mojojita]

Sorry about my above sarcastic comment - my official opinion is hell NO there should absolutely not be tickets offered to theme camps. Everyone who participates contributes and we should no more pick and choose who should be able to go than we should limit the art to "only what is GOOD art". It would be like bailing out those other "too big to fail" entities.

[Dr Helix]

Yeah? How big do I have to be to be a theme camp?

Can I be a monkey hut theme camp where I bring my monkey hut and shitty vodka to the playa?

You let me know where you're gonna be and I'll bring mixer. And a theme camp is born.

[The CO]

Zaphod, if you can see the future, why didn't you tell us who was going to win the superbowl?

I'd rather imagine cool projects I can build. Imagining boring people is a waste of time.

[AntiM]

Yeah? How big do I have to be to be a theme camp?

Can I be a monkey hut theme camp where I bring my monkey hut and shitty vodka to the playa?

You let me know where you're gonna be and I'll bring mixer. And a theme camp is born.

I was under the impression a theme camp had to have a minimum of three members. I don't know if a penis qualifies.

[lucky420]

AntiM
was under the impression a theme camp had to have a minimum of three members. I don't know if a penis qualifies

only if it has been given a name

[lemur]

]\

I think what youre suggesting is more like this:

#1 Superficial Inclusion
Anyone who has been before may be a part of Burning Man. We welcome and respect the stranger, if there is any space left. Some prerequisites exist for participation in our community.

Imagine a bunch of radically-included ticket-holding strangers standing around gawking at some naked girl in the space where a Temple, or Do Lab, or giant fire-breathing steampunk octopus used to be, and the only reason they know about it is because they saw it on YouPorn or read about it in Playboy.

Imagine a playa filled with bikes instead of large Mutant Vehicles.

Meh. If you want to radically-include an overwhelming mob of drunken camera-wielding spectators, I recommend Mardi Gras. It's free.

how you are able to make such assumptions about people who are planning on attending is beyond me..

so it goes like this in your brain?

'virgin -> not in a theme camp -> spectator who wants to see naked people while drunk'

???


look, we get it.. your camp is important to you.. but sorry man! but it aint the be-all-end-all of burning man..theres more than one way to burn... have ya ever seen how much awesome-ness is going on out in the suburbs away from the theme camp areas ? people is having a dandy old time, all without the constraints of theme camps.

plenty of people enjoy burning man without even going to theme camps at all!!! and they are more than just drunk 'spectators' looking for boobs.

you seem to be jumping to conclusions.. maybe even rationalizations !! 'if burning man isnt how i invision it should be its gonna be a totally shite frat party!!'

mardi gras ?

come on.. sheesh....

if it makes it easier for you to take the shock of burning man selling out ... sure! just imagine its gonna be all drunken frat boys looking for tits..

but dont you actually believe that shit.. cuz it just aint true.

surely youve read by now.. heard by now.. that this whole burning man thing used to not even have massive giant theme camps!! holy shit, and ya know what ? that idea was cool enough that people kept on coming.. even without the theme camps...... and they built on that idea.. they added more ideas, and eventually we had theme camps and mutant vehicles.. but to think that the be-all-end-all of burning man participation or enjoyment is a mutant vehicle, or a theme camp is to totally miss what is going on out there.

[5280MeV]

Yeah? How big do I have to be to be a theme camp?

Can I be a monkey hut theme camp where I bring my monkey hut and shitty vodka to the playa?

Is this going to be one of those camps where you wander in and people treat you like you have been one of their camp mates for years? Where they invite you to share some of their dinner? Where they ask you to choose between a few CDs, and draw something on their bar to help decorate it? Where conversation comes naturally and never seems to end, and you end up leaving three hours later, even though you just wanted to say hi and have a drink?

If so, I will be there all week.

[ZaphodBurner]

how you are able to make such assumptions about people who are planning on attending is beyond me..

so it goes like this in your brain?

'virgin -> not in a theme camp -> spectator who wants to see naked people

No. I guess you fucked that assumption all up, didn't you?

People aren't considerate of how the Temples, Arctica, Soul in the Machine, HookahDome, the BRCPO or the airport gets built, or who scrapes the litter out of the toilets before the JotS says "Fuck it, we're done, the contract has been violated and this event is over." Most of the Greeters I know didn't get tickets. Are you going to volunteer to be a Greeter for a day, are you going to help clean beer bottles and light sticks out of the shitters, or what?

If you think 40,000 hipster attendees walking around talking to each other is awesome, there are a shit-ton of places more convenient and less ecologically-fragile than the Black Rock Desert. It's just that they don't allow flamethrowers, or fire-breathing viking boats with stripper poles on them.

Attendees in their tents and RVs are THE most fascinating element of Burning Man, aren't they?

[vargaso]

how you are able to make such assumptions about people who are planning on attending is beyond me..

so it goes like this in your brain?

'virgin -> not in a theme camp -> spectator who wants to see naked people

No. I guess you fucked that assumption all up, didn't you?

I don't supposed you've ever even considered how the Temple, Arctica, Soul in the Machine, HookahDome, the BRCPO or the airport gets built.
The hipster attendees in their tents and RVs are clearly THE most fascinating element of Burning Man, aren't they?

Thing is, while those things are great, they arose organically and are not inherent to nor necessary for Burning Man to exist. OK, maybe Arctica, but I wouldn't place it in the same category as your other examples, it's more basic infrastructure and I bet it will get a ton of new volunteers this year. The rest? Meh. They will be missed by those who have been directly involved in them, and I feel for them, but we're all in the same boat. And as others have stated, theme camps ain't the end-all be-all. Personally, I spend exactly zero time in them aside from dancing at night in the sound camps, which, come on, you really think there won't be a thousand DJs clamoring to take the place of those who didn't get tickets. I predict a hybridization comprised of the shards of past theme camps who managed to score tickets. Could be very cool and totally different from previous years. Maybe something like an AEZ-powered Hookahdome, how cool would that be?

Of course, there's a good chance I won't see for myself how it plays out, I don't have ticket. Might do Permaburn, who knows.

[lemur]

my camp will celebrate 20 years in 2013.... 1993-2013...

ive seen shit get built and kno how it tends to work..hell, done ive even done some of it myself!

and ya kno? burning man would still kick ass without it.

for myself, as long as there are still PEOPLE to interact with, theres still a burning man

and everyone else.. as long as we are still there together.. we can participate and have plenty of fun even without mutant vehicles or theme camps.. I mean, for the most part..youre interacting with people no matter which theme camp you go to anyways, right ?


we have had hundreds of newcomers/virgins kick some major ass over the years in our camp.. some of the most awesome non-spectatory non-frat-boy-boob-hunter people.. some people 'get it' without indoctrination, from day one.. whether it be while 'on duty' or while hanging out in camp..

I have seen bascially zero difference between vets and newcomers.. and ..my camp has had tons of people go through it in my time, we are far from stagnant... there are just as many slacker vets as virgins.. and no real pattern to make me think that virgins are more prone to being out of touch with what happens at burning man than the vets..


-
lemur - lamplighters management team/council - email me: lemur AT burningman DOT com

[lemur]

how you are able to make such assumptions about people who are planning on attending is beyond me..

so it goes like this in your brain?

'virgin -> not in a theme camp -> spectator who wants to see naked people

No. I guess you fucked that assumption all up, didn't you?

I don't supposed you've ever even considered how the Temple, Arctica, Soul in the Machine, HookahDome, the BRCPO or the airport gets built.

yes, in fact i have !

[ZaphodBurner]

I don't supposed you've ever even considered how the Temple, Arctica, Soul in the Machine, HookahDome, the BRCPO or the airport gets built.

yes, in fact i have !

Fuckin' miracle, isn't it? People just show up and, meet for the first time on the playa, and BAM! The Temple happens, a pirate ship cruises majestically across the desert, fights break out in Thunderdome, an iron dragon rears its head and blasts fire into the sky.

Mother and Child assembled itself on the playa, the same way the airport grooms itself so that community can spend tens of thousands of dollars giving rides around the city to Burners. The Trojan Horse just appeared at the gate one morning. It didn't take very long to plan, build or execute. Comfort and Joy is actually just two guys and a really big tent.

A better idea, perhaps, would be to give ARTISTS a certificate for a ticket. 'Cause, everybody listen:

IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MANY SPECTATORS COME TO THE ART FESTIVAL IF THE ARTISTS AREN'T INVITED. In my opinion, walking around and giving shoulder massages or sharing hippie-dippie Burnerisms might be great spiritually beneficial to those who seek such things, but Burning Man is a fucking ART FESTIVAL.

"we can participate and have plenty of fun even without mutant vehicles or theme camps.."

You can do that at Baker Beach, Las Vegas, or a Carnival cruise, too.

[unjonharley]

\
Hey Late, How about you go screw yourself..

I'm a single camper at Burning Man..

[lemur]

Fuckin' miracle, isn't it? People just show up and, meet for the first time on the playa, and BAM! The Temple happens

that is how the temple started.

[Isotopia]

I hesitate to be elitist in any way, but if a camp can't get it's members there, it will cease being a camp...

This could still be done for this year in a haphazard way, where camps get some preferable treatment to get their core members tickets.

Just a thought and trying to help out!

Not a bad idea because I think camp members would be more easily verified as most of them request early in arrangements well before the hordes gather at the gates.

Still, asking for tickets for all members of a camp would be a shit idea because, well, people would figure out how to game the system.