Why no option to pay by check/money order?

[Zhust]

In reviewing the method of purchase and the lengthy FAQ, I don't understand the requirement for a credit card. It seems that with the 2-week window, it should be possible to accept checks/money orders beforehand by "absentee ballot", so-to-speak. If by check, it will either be cashed and the ticket awarded, or the check will be returned. If by money order, it will be claimed and deposited, and if a ticket is not awarded, a refund check will be issued. I imagine that only a few people use this method.

The notion of using a Visa gift card is acceptable for people who, well, would actually already use a credit card. An unused balance of $400/ticket (e.g. maybe $800) would be fine for someone who happened to spend $400 in credit-card purchases already. Gift cards have weird rules (some expire after 6 or 12 months, losing the balance, and I don't think they can be cashed out) so the safe thing to do woud be to spend the balance within a month or two.

Two reasons come to mind in opposing credit cards in general.

The first is related to the recent Occupy Wall Street movement. 3% to 8% of credit card transactions go to the banks. By selling 50,000 tickets for around $350 each, that's between $525,000 and $1,400,000 profit for the credit card companies right off the top — not even counting any finance charges.

Second, I tend to buy locally as much as I can, and when I do, I pay cash specifically because of those fees that are passed on to the retailer. When I can't find a local retailer and must turn to a non-local retailer, I use my credit card. Thus, for every dollar I spend, 100% goes to local retailers but only 92%-97% would go to a non-local retailer (or more if it's a small purchase — if I buy a $2 pack of screws, the credit card fees may be a minimum of $0.50, so that's only 75% reaching the non-local retailer). While it's not a huge thing, in head-to-head competition, it favors the local merchant even if they don't offer what I need. (And in the end, the other 3%-25% goes right to another non-local corporation, so I still try to minimize buying from corporations in general).

[lemur]

The first is related to the recent Occupy Wall Street movement. 3% to 8% of credit card transactions go to the banks. By selling 50,000 tickets for around $350 each, that's between $525,000 and $1,400,000 profit for the credit card companies right off the top — not even counting any finance charges.

uhm... thanks for pointin that out i never considered that burning man wants to help the 1%

[AntiM]

You can get a prepaid cash card for about $5 at those check for cash places. And yes, if it isn't used for the tickets, you can get the cash back.

Pretty much the same thing as a check.

[Canoe]

You can get a prepaid cash card for about $5 at those check for cash places. And yes, if it isn't used for the tickets, you can get the cash back.
Pretty much the same thing as a check.

For a fee...
You don't get all your money back.
If I read correctly, for the lottery it has to be a Visa or Mastercard prepaid.

[Shambala]

You can get a prepaid cash card for about $5 at those check for cash places. And yes, if it isn't used for the tickets, you can get the cash back.
Pretty much the same thing as a check.

For a fee...
You don't get all your money back.
If I read correctly, for the lottery it has to be a Visa or Mastercard prepaid.

You will in all likelihood get a ticket. Remember, it was July when the event sold out this past year. Also, if by some chance you have the unused prepaid card, you can just spend it down on things you would normally buy.

[junglesmacks]

You can get a prepaid cash card for about $5 at those check for cash places. And yes, if it isn't used for the tickets, you can get the cash back.
Pretty much the same thing as a check.

For a fee...
You don't get all your money back.
If I read correctly, for the lottery it has to be a Visa or Mastercard prepaid.

You will in all likelihood get a ticket. Remember, it was July when the event sold out this past year. Also, if by some chance you have the unused prepaid card, you can just spend it down on things you would normally buy.

This would be Sham's polite way of saying sit down, shut up and drink the god-damn kool aid..

[BBadger]

Checks and money orders? What about layaway? Or maybe we can barter?

What is this, the 1980s? If you're going to buy anything online expect to pay by credit card. Welcome to the 21st century.

Anyway, if BMorg were interested in these archaic and slow methods of payment they would allow you to pay for the tickets after you were notified of "winning" in the lottery.

[jkisha]

Checks and money orders? What about layaway? Or maybe we can barter?

What is this, the 1980s? If you're going to buy anything online expect to pay by credit card. Welcome to the 21st century.

Anyway, if BMorg were interested in these archaic and slow methods of payment they would allow you to pay for the tickets after you were notified of "winning" in the lottery.

Which of course would benefit those that had several people getting into the lottery. Once someone in that group one, everyone else can just refuse to pay.

[Zhust]

What is this, the 1980s? If you're going to buy anything online expect to pay by credit card. Welcome to the 21st century.

BBadger: OBEY.

[junglesmacks]

You know this could be easily solved by offering ACH payment via check routing/account number as well. Most online stores offer than option as well. Savings accounts are generally free these days and could be opened and used with zero fees.

[trilobyte]

Probably because telecheck and other check/money order verification/authorization services suck, are a pain in the ass to deal with, may carry a higher risk of fraud to businesses, and just plain aren't competitive with other forms of payment. Between the fact that banks offer the ability to directly access an account through a visa/mastercard compatible debit card and the ability to easily get a pre-paid credit card, it shouldn't be difficult to figure out.

[BBadger]

You know this could be easily solved by offering ACH payment via check routing/account number as well. Most online stores offer than option as well. Savings accounts are generally free these days and could be opened and used with zero fees.

Maybe it'd work for some people but I find it bad enough that Paypal wants me to "link" my account with their service (hell no!). I like how credit cards create a buffer between my account and the store in case something goes to shit (which has happened to me). Even with debit cards the money is removed immediately when it's used. I also hate having to keep money in the checking account waiting for checks to be cashed (not that the savings account earns much better).

[remi]

Adults nowadays should have CC's. To claim that using a CC is supporting the 1% is like saying "If you don't grow your own veggies and milk your own cow.. just buy going to the grocery store you are supporting the 1%", which may be true, but doesn't mean I'm going to build a chicken coupe in my townhouse.

[jkisha]

Adults nowadays should have CC's. To claim that using a CC is supporting the 1% is like saying "If you don't grow your own veggies and milk your own cow.. just buy going to the grocery store you are supporting the 1%", which may be true, but doesn't mean I'm going to build a chicken coupe in my townhouse.

Agree. I'm a big supporter of OWS, but...I also don't especially hate big corporations per se. I want them (their money and the unfair influence it buys) totally out of politics so that our politicians can regulate them properly without the temptation of corporate bribes. They do play an important part in today's world, and I thoroughly enjoy many of the things they produce and sell.

[theCryptofishist]

I recently ran into my friend who owns a used book store of some fame. We talked about (surprise) Occupy. And she said that one thing that was coming out with this was the "pay with cash" thing. She said that 2 to 3 cents of every dollar goes to the credit card company, in addition to whatever buy ins are included. So, credit cards at large chains--if you can be trusted with them (some cannot) and cash at small, locally owned places.
I don't like how the cards take from both vendor and customer. Yes, they are convenient. But I think any adult should think carefully about his/her needs/wants and find an appropriate way of paying bills. That the llc takes only credit cards may be their best option, but the fact that you have to buy a pre-paid card once a year doesn't seem to me to be a huge burden.
YMMV

[BBadger]

There are some stores that will give you a discount for using cash or debit cards to avoid the transaction fee. However, unless they're going to pass on some of those savings I won't go out of my way to use alternative payment methods.

[mdmf007]

I know it sucks for those sticking it to the man, but its the BMORGS show - if they want to accept cash only, they can. CC's Only - thats their decision as well. Some will just have to accept the fact that to go means that some measure of giving in will have to be tolerated. And unless you walk to BM your supporting Exxon Mobil, BP, ARCO, and yes even the Saudi Arabian, Libyan, Mexican, and Canadian governments and large multi national corporations to a some degree.

[Eric]

And unless you walk to BM your supporting Exxon Mobil, BP, ARCO, and yes even the Saudi Arabian, Libyan, Mexican, and Canadian governments and large multi national corporations to a some degree.

If you walk and are wearing a decent pair of shoes you're probably supporting near-slave labor in the 3rd world.

Pick your dragon to slay...

[Zhust]

I know it sucks for those sticking it to the man, but its the BMORGS show

I know. I don't think I came off too knee-jerky in my original post, but I always appreciated the option of being able to go to a store and pay cash. A lot of radical counter-culture people go to Burning Man and I'm glad they are there: I do not want to see them excluded (or for them to perceive that they are being excluded). Changing the game means some people continue to feel welcome, some can adapt to the changes, and some feel downright ostracized. I like meeting the people who have fuck-all interest in the Internet, technology, phone lines, credit cards, the debt-based centralized money system in general, and virtually anything a technically connected guy like myself does.

(And to be honest, at the end of the day, I'll use my credit card to buy a ticket just like I always did.)

I don't see how it is prohibitively burdensome to permit people to mail a check/money order and a paper request for a ticket at a certain tier, or to order a ticket by walking in to the Burning Man office with cash (walk-in places were pretty centrally located around the BOrg offices anyway). In return, they'd either receive tickets or a refund. I mean, how many people need to pay this way? 100? 1,000?

I am seeing two rationalizations against this: "it will exclude people other than myself, so that's good because it means I have better odds of getting a ticket", and "credit cards are not the largest part of the problem, so it's not worth caring about."

In a way, the only valid argument is "Burning Man is the BOrg's event and they get to do what they want". Yeah, they can't cover every absurd contingency, but really? As I said earlier, I think excluding this small group of people changes TWITBMI* — isn't it important to keep it a as much of a counterculture event as possible?

In the end, I think part of all these change is a way for the BOrg to yell, "DO SOME FUCKING REGIONALS, PEOPLE!" I've been racking my brain to figure out how to create an appropriately high barrier-to-entry so only people who really want to go will show up (also part of TWITBMI). Frostburn accomplishes this by holding the event in winter in rural Pennsylvania, so just as the casual festival goer balks at camp in the desert in August, they also balk at camping in the winter in February.

But, oh the allure — the sheer mass of people who want to insanely camp in the desert in August ... wow ...

* TWITBMI = The Way I Think Burning Man Is

[trilobyte]

If only we could just stuff cash into our computers and have it be accepted on the web site on the other end.

[theCryptofishist]

When I stuff cash in my laptop it complains that I'm trying to fatten it up like Hansel.

[BBadger]

I don't see how it is prohibitively burdensome to permit people to mail a check/money order and a paper request for a ticket at a certain tier, or to order a ticket by walking in to the Burning Man office with cash (walk-in places were pretty centrally located around the BOrg offices anyway). In return, they'd either receive tickets or a refund. I mean, how many people need to pay this way? 100? 1,000?

Well there are two sides of the coin to that: it's not prohibitively burdensome at those numbers (it is still more burdensome), but at the same time, is it even worth catering to a tiny minority of people who can't/won't buy online using a credit card?

There is also quite a bit of setup involved in catering to cash/check people short of having a special outlet where people can travel to and buy the tickets. Handling large amounts of cash is problematic: what if it gets intercepted in the mail or something happens to the cash? Do you also require people to provide a self-addressed stamped envelope (registered mail?) to have it returned? What about checks? Do you hold onto tickets at X tier and wait for that check to cash? Doesn't that skew the lottery?

If there's a ticket outlet, do you limit it only to tier-3 prices? How many tickets to reserve? Is it only available in some big place like San Francisco?

I think all these problems were some of the reasons why tickets are not sold at the gate anymore (assuming there were any left). It's just a pain to deal with transactions at that level.

[Canoe]

I don't see how it is prohibitively burdensome to permit people to mail a check/money order and a paper request for a ticket at a certain tier, or to order a ticket by walking in to the Burning Man office with cash (walk-in places were pretty centrally located around the BOrg offices anyway). In return, they'd either receive tickets or a refund. I mean, how many people need to pay this way? 100? 1,000?

Well there are two sides of the coin to that: it's not prohibitively burdensome at those numbers (it is still more burdensome), but at the same time, is it even worth catering to a tiny minority of people who can't/won't buy online using a credit card?

Radical Inclusion?
Or convenient inclusion || exclusion?

[BBadger]

I don't see how it is prohibitively burdensome to permit people to mail a check/money order and a paper request for a ticket at a certain tier, or to order a ticket by walking in to the Burning Man office with cash (walk-in places were pretty centrally located around the BOrg offices anyway). In return, they'd either receive tickets or a refund. I mean, how many people need to pay this way? 100? 1,000?

Well there are two sides of the coin to that: it's not prohibitively burdensome at those numbers (it is still more burdensome), but at the same time, is it even worth catering to a tiny minority of people who can't/won't buy online using a credit card?

Radical Inclusion?
Or convenient inclusion || exclusion?

We don't see "radical inclusion" for anyone who does not have a ticket. Just like the tenants of de-commodification, radical inclusion is only applicable once you're inside the gates. You're free to bring those vibes outside the event too, but in Defaultia the game is different.

[Rice]

I don't see how it is prohibitively burdensome to permit people to mail a check/money order and a paper request for a ticket at a certain tier, or to order a ticket by walking in to the Burning Man office with cash (walk-in places were pretty centrally located around the BOrg offices anyway). In return, they'd either receive tickets or a refund. I mean, how many people need to pay this way? 100? 1,000?

Well there are two sides of the coin to that: it's not prohibitively burdensome at those numbers (it is still more burdensome), but at the same time, is it even worth catering to a tiny minority of people who can't/won't buy online using a credit card?

Radical Inclusion?
Or convenient inclusion || exclusion?

Radical self-reliance?

Here is how I see it:

Gee, they only accept credit cards... Hmmm, Better get me one of those. Oh - look: Prepaid credit card. I have $XXX dollars for a ticket (add money to card). Whew, I can get my ticket now. That was fairly painless. So, was there some problem I was not aware of??

There are fairly simple ways of dealing with this. You can bitch about wanting to pay cash and not get a ticket, or you can just use the offered solution.

Love Rice

[Canoe]

I don't see how it is prohibitively burdensome to permit people to mail a check/money order and a paper request for a ticket at a certain tier, or to order a ticket by walking in to the Burning Man office with cash (walk-in places were pretty centrally located around the BOrg offices anyway). In return, they'd either receive tickets or a refund. I mean, how many people need to pay this way? 100? 1,000?

Well there are two sides of the coin to that: it's not prohibitively burdensome at those numbers (it is still more burdensome), but at the same time, is it even worth catering to a tiny minority of people who can't/won't buy online using a credit card?

Radical Inclusion?
Or convenient inclusion || exclusion?

Radical self-reliance?
Here is how I see it:

Gee, they only accept credit cards... Hmmm, Better get me one of those. Oh - look: Prepaid credit card. I have $XXX dollars for a ticket (add money to card). Whew, I can get my ticket now. That was fairly painless. So, was there some problem I was not aware of??

There are fairly simple ways of dealing with this. You can bitch about wanting to pay cash and not get a ticket, or you can just use the offered solution.
Love Rice

I'm not bitching. I use pre-paid cards all the time. Including for PM tickets. Works well. Rare problems, like useless at most Nevada gas stations, at the pump or inside payment not possible. Works fine in Utah. Works in Lowe's in NY, not in NV. Works at Home Depot and Walmarts everywhere. Anyways.

The point is: the process now excludes those who, for whatever reason, cannot use an online method.
On playa, I met a number of people that I would strongly suspect that would be in that boat. Did that make their participation less worthy than mine?
They probably don't even know the process has changed.

I've asked if anyone knew the number that purchased, or tried to purchase, through mail-in for past years, but no numbers provided yet.

[Rice]

I'm not bitching. I use pre-paid cards all the time. Including for PM tickets. Works well. Rare problems, like useless at most Nevada gas stations, at the pump or inside payment not possible. Works fine in Utah. Works in Lowe's in NY, not in NV. Works at Home Depot and Walmarts everywhere. Anyways.

The point is: the process now excludes those who, for whatever reason, cannot use an online method.
On playa, I met a number of people that I would strongly suspect that would be in that boat. Did that make their participation less worthy than mine?
They probably don't even know the process has changed.

I've asked if anyone knew the number that purchased, or tried to purchase, through mail-in for past years, but no numbers provided yet.

Being Canadian, I have always been unable to use any payment but credit card. (I have heard that at one point Canadian Credit cards were troublesome too.)

When I am doing the 6000km drive to/from BRC I usually pay cash for fuel, food, motels, etc. But there are times when I can only use a credit card (not everywhere takes cash or works with Canadian bank cards).

Basically if you do not wish or cannot be part of the system, by nature, you are excluded. Is it fair that you are excluded or that you are not participating??

The worthiness of anyone is not at question. One needs to make a certain amount of effort to attend. If you are unwilling (or unable) to do that, then simply you will not attend.

Love Rice

[trilobyte]

There's probably an aspect of that discussion that touches upon the need for radical self reliance whether you're on or off the grid, but I'll leave that particular can of worms unopened for now.

I don't know if excluded is the right word. Maybe in the sense that those people standing outside who don't walk through the open door in front of them are excluded from being indoors. They certainly are at risk for being left out in the cold. If you (or anyone reading this) has off-the-grid burners in their circle of friends, you might care to reach out to them just to make sure they know the process is changing in 2012. I don't believe the BMOrg has published a breakdown of tickets by transaction type, but understand that mail order represents a very small percentage of tickets sold. And of that group, it's impossible to say how many of them would be unwilling or to purchase via the pre-paid card route (though 100% of them would be able if they so chose).

[trilobyte]

Whoops, forgot to add… a two week registration window probably helps level the playing field for that segment of the population, since there's no pressure to be sitting in front of a computer on a specific day or specific time in order to wait in a virtual queue.

[Canoe]

O.K. I'll spell it out.

My specific concern is for those whose personalities and/or mental capabilities and/or mental illness, etc. are borderline and not capable of using computers/pre-paid for whatever mix of issues makes this the case for them. I did meet a number of those on the playa, and I'm sure the rangers and councilors met many more. They were all participating and contributing, like all of us, each in their own way.
Like the guy back at Keystone recycle/savemart in Reno who went on about how he hated everything at BM. Absolutely everything. "It's like that every year". He returns "home" to a place where his not-fitting-in is tolerated and hence for one week a year he gets to fit in.
And yes, one could say 'then they shouldn't be there', but they've participated so far. Tell me you haven't met them...
I met them on playa and set them up with everything from water to electrolyte to dust-masks, and in Reno prior to PM while getting supplies.
Anyways.

If excluding mail order means that half of that demographic are "unable" to manage computer/pre-paid access, it's still excluding a segment of Burners that previously were welcome.
Given the two week period of registration, and the additional time to process the lottery, there is no excuse for not allowing mail order entries. *Inclusion*