non-transferable tickets for 2012

[starlightbright]

as many of you know, the last coachella sold out in one week. this was due to scalpers. professional scalpers have multiple IPs and employees and multiple mailing addresses with hundreds of credit cards. a pro scalper can purchase 1,000 tickets to any event which sells transferable tickets - ie burning man.

burning man is now on their radar full screen. the pro scalpers will be there on day one and we'll be lucky to have a week before all the tickets are gone.

i missed the first week of coachella sales (i tried in week two) and myself and many friends just couldn't afford the scalper's price. but i heard from several people that they were happy when they were able to get a $700 to $800 ticket. i guess that's the free-market price where supply meets demand.

if half of every BM ticket sold goes to scalpers - what will that do to the demographic of the community? under-employed creative types like myself who miss the first week will be gone. on the plus side, frat boys and blatant tourists will also be mostly gone. but if half of the people one the playa are those who are *willing* and able to afford $800 - $1,000 per ticket - what types of people will these be?

also, what are the downsides to BM issuing only non-transferrable tickets? would that be the solution to scalpers?

[lemur]

burning man is now on their radar full screen. the pro scalpers will be there on day one and we'll be lucky to have a week before all the tickets are gone.

if half of every BM ticket sold goes to scalpers - what will that do to the demographic of the community? ...if half of the people [on] the playa are those who are *willing* and able to afford $800 - $1,000 per ticket - what types of people will these be?

also, what are the downsides to BM issuing only non-transferrable tickets? would that be the solution to scalpers?

where do you get the idea that burning man is on any scalpers radar?

there were 1000 tickets for sale last november 2010 at $280 each i didnt see a mention that those were sold out (i believe it was said theyd tell if sold out) when they were being offered.. scalpers didnt appear to swoop in there.

the first day ticket sale has always been a big ass swarm of people trying to save a few bucks..making orders for their entire camp mixed in with whatever influx of new people and yet ticket sales went on for 7 months before it was halted.

except for 1 year BRC population has always grown.. and we've hovered round the 50,000 limit for a while now.... i don't see any reason to believe this sell out occured because of scalpers rather than our natural growth beyond the 50,000 limit.. I surely dont see any reason to believe that next year, half of the tickets would go to scalpers.



non transferable tickets will slowdown the gate entry. this big clog at the gate is already a problem. flow of traffic through the gate is surely a huge worry for burning man in keeping nice with highway patrol and the BLM/etc/publicsafety... we cannot block up the roads anymore than we already do and i am pretty sure that having gate crews out there checking to see if every single ticket matched up with its initial purchaser we would be having problems out on the pavement......

[junglesmacks]

where do you get the idea that burning man is on any scalpers radar?

As soon as the event sold out this year and word spread through the global population like wildfire, and tickets were being successfully sold for 300%-400% higher than the face value.. that's where. I mean.. we've got sweat shops in Nigeria pumping out scam CL postings for godsakes. Oh yeah.. next year.. you can bet the pro scalpers will be all over this. No joke.

[The CO]

I addressed this concern on a couple other threads like this one.

For what you are proposing, scalpers would have to sit on seven and a half million dollars for over 8 months with no gaurentee of profit. Scalpers don't work on the long term investment plan. It is a straw man concern.

[jkisha]

You better explain "straw man" to the OP.

[gyre]

I addressed this concern on a couple other threads like this one.

For what you are proposing, scalpers would have to sit on seven and a half million dollars for over 8 months with no gaurentee of profit. Scalpers don't work on the long term investment plan. It is a straw man concern.

Why do they need to control this amount of tickets?

Any early tiers are guaranteed to sell at a profit anyway.
After that, they only have to buy before tickets are gone.

It shouldn't be underestimated how many potential scalpers are out there.
It is the same problem for the llc if it's 10,000 scalpers or one organization.

How this year plays out will determine how bad next year could be.

I see no reason for the llc not to take control of the issue.

The ticket situation for many of the regionals is the main reason I don't attend those that sell out.
Ticket shortages and distribution issues diminish the experience.
People I am looking for don't go when too many in their camp don't have tickets.
If this becomes the norm for the burn, it won't be as fun.

[theCryptofishist]

You better explain "straw man" to the OP.

It all goes back to the Wizard of Oz...

[BBadger]

If, or ever, BM sells out in a timeframe of significance maybe there will be cause for concern, but the 225 auctions on eBay are nothing to be worried about.

Coachella is an entirely different festival that is far more accessible to the general public. There are hotels, it is easily stretched to two weekends, it showcases popular bands, etc. Scalpers can easily move tickets for such events. Not so, for BM. Not everyone is going to camp out in the middle of a desert on their own provisions for a week just to attend an art festival.

I'm not worried at all. In fact, I bet the tickets sell out, if they do, after the same six months. We'll all be replaying this nonsense again.

[starlightbright]

all good points.

there's another unknown that's troubling for this year that i've already heard talked about: shut-outs showing up and running the gate.

if that happens in significant numbers the LLC would be in violation of their license. i don't think the powers-that-be would shut them down for this, but i don't understand the political pressures they might be under this year. it appears there is some pressure given the limit on sales. why else would there be a limit if there wasn't a contingent that was saying, 50k+ is too much for the environment?

just wondering.

[gyre]

More infrastructure than the environment.

Inadequate health standards means no party.


I think running the gate would be unsuccessful for a number of reasons.

Easier to take a run at perimeter, and that can't be done as a surprize.

[starlightbright]

Easier to take a run at perimeter, and that can't be done as a surprize.

yes, that's really what i meant. sneaking in has never been taboo, although i thought it was in my first couple years. it's actually quite accepted.

but if it's done in massive numbers - this could cause the whole event to be shut down by the powers-that-be.

2012 will be the answer to the effect of all of this. if a large number of people do a runner, we may all be wearing wrist bands in 2013. guess that's not the end of the world.

[gyre]

It isn't acceptable to anyone I know, other than the very limited context of sneaking in with ticket in hand, or just for early entry.

I think anyone trying this, will be surprized by how much help perimeter gets from the crowd.

It's not coachella.

[Savannah]

sneaking in has never been taboo, although i thought it was in my first couple years. it's actually quite accepted.

That depends on who you talk to. There is a significant Gate/Perimeter/Exodus representation on ePlaya that does not find it acceptable, in addition to quite a number of regular folks who try to support the event's structure and continued existence, and do not admire the sneaky (because they'll be prowling in your cooler or car, next).

[starlightbright]

I think anyone trying this, will be surprized by how much help perimeter gets from the crowd.

i hope you're right. but by the numbers of burners right now ignoring the decommodification principal on ebay and other sites, do you really think your average burner will come to the rescue of the gate crew and help tackle gate-runners? think of the liabilities involved...

[gyre]

Larry's principles and damaging the event are two entirely different things.

De-commodification is intended to refer to the event itself, on the playa.

There are as many interpretations of Larry's Principles, as there are schisms between the Church and the Essenes, and even people that cherry pick them to be abusive to others.

However in disagreement someone might be with the llc, cheating on entry is simply non-productive.
At worst, destructive.


As mentioned elsewhere, there have always been many more potential consequences to violating rules on federal land, but the llc has been protecting those caught.

I'm certain the blm has a whole bag of unpleasant things they want to do.

I think this is not a good year to sneak in.

[gyre]

do you really think your average burner will come to the rescue of the gate crew and help tackle gate-runners? think of the liabilities involved...

I think most will at least help track them, and there may be a hundred photos of anyone trying to get in too.

An individual acting on their own isn't a large liability to the llc, barring something incredibly egregious.


A guy walks into an attorney's office...

Hi,
I want to sue bm llc because I was clotheslined by an unknown rabbit while commiting a federal crime and defrauding the llc mentioned.
Oh yeah, charges pending.

Pause and .....

[starlightbright]

I think this is not a good year to sneak in.

i agree. however, it may be the biggest year for it - which could jeopardise the whole thing for us all.

if they ended burning man right now - thousands would still show up, and thousands are being denied entry this year. i don't want it to end this way - with those people running the gate and causing the BLM to shut us down.

[andy]

I do support the idea of non-transferrable tickets that can be sold back to BMORG less a hjandling fee. As far as additional delays at the gate, it sounds like very little extra delay.

Regarding the statement that "thousands are being turned away" - that may or may not be true - only time will tell.
Right now, people can't get tickets and some people are paying well over face value, that's true.
But in all previous years, people were posting tickets for sale right up to the event (and even during the event) since they couldn't make it. This is also happening this year.

BM is not like a rock concert. A few years back I saw a ticket for a concert hapening that evening, decided on a whim to go, met the seller, paid face value in cash, and enjoyed the show.
Ironically, last-second tickets may actually be harder to sell than in previous years, since with no gate sales, people without tickets probably won't do the lengthy preparations to go, and there may be less available last-second buyers. (with gate sales, you could always offer your hard ticket for $10 less than gate, since lots of people were prepping to go without tickets)

[BBadger]

I don't want them non-transferable. How else would I be able to get a second ticket for someone else?

The system is just fine. Buy your tickets in the first half year and you'll be set. No need for dealing with scalpers, begging on ePlaya, etc. It's not hard, and if you don't go this year, you'll definitely have that money for next year.

[gyre]

I don't want them non-transferable. How else would I be able to get a second ticket for someone else?

Buy it in their name?

[motskyroonmatick]

The hypothetical side of me thinks:

A mass breaking of the perimeter would require extensive planning using warfare strategy, extremely high discipline, perfect execution and employing radar and broad spectrum radio frequency jamming. The participants would instantly see it for what it was. WAR! And it it would be ON!!!

Running perimeter at gate is easy to prevent and apprehending several vehicles that got through would be no problem.

A thousand burners that showed up ticket less and camped somewhere else on the playa would likely be a big problem for the BLM unless they were radically demonstrating the responsibilities of L.N.T and not posing a grave danger to them selves or others. AKA random firing of weapons. You know...Like the early days.

[BBadger]

I don't want them non-transferable. How else would I be able to get a second ticket for someone else?

Buy it in their name?

And if, like this year, I don't know exactly who needs the ticket in the group at the time?

The more fundamental question I should be asking is: why should I need to suffer that inconvenience for a tiny number of scalpers and people who didn't get their tickets in all of 6 months they were available?

Making tickets non-transferable seems like a lot of wasted effort for such people.

A mass breaking of the perimeter would require extensive planning using warfare strategy, extremely high discipline, perfect execution and employing radar and broad spectrum radio frequency jamming. The participants would instantly see it for what it was. WAR! And it it would be ON!!!

If they put even half that much effort into getting a ticket in the first place they'd have a ticket. So I have little faith they'd pull it off.

[motskyroonmatick]

A mass breaking of the perimeter would require extensive planning using warfare strategy, extremely high discipline, perfect execution and employing radar and broad spectrum radio frequency jamming. The participants would instantly see it for what it was. WAR! And it it would be ON!!!

If they put even half that much effort into getting a ticket in the first place they'd have a ticket. So I have little faith they'd pull it off.

Agreed.
Cat herding is a futile sport in most regards. Most challenging with burners.

Off subject but I think the scarcity of tickets is showing new price points that people would pay to attend and what a bargain it really is to have ticket prices where they are offered by the org.

[starlightbright]

...scarcity of tickets is showing new price points that people would pay to attend and what a bargain it really is to have ticket prices where they are offered by the org.

there's a huge segment of the burner population who attend the event because they work at slave-like corporate jobs. their lives are so routine and boring that burning man is their chance each year to temporarily escape that lifestyle. these are the people who have the money and are willing to pay perhaps thousands for a ticket. to them, BM is a bargain at almost any price.

when you work in something like a coffee house and throw fundraisers all year just to afford to bring your small art project out there - $1k for a ticket is a dream-killer.

i'm expecting 2012 tickets to sell out in a week (like coachella), so i'll be buying on day one. if it does sell out in a week, you'll have many fewer non-industrial art projects and services shared by individuals like me. you'll have even more (gasp) people out there whose highest level of participation would basically be operating a megaphone and interacting with the industrial sized art installations, thinking what a great deal that it only cost them $1k to get through the gate.

[Here and there]

You better explain "straw man" to the OP.

And then somebody ought to explain "straw man" to you and the CO. A "straw man" argument is a deliberately weak argument constructed for a position that one opposes. One knocks down the argument, and so debunks the opposing position, in the eyes of those fooled by this. In other words, sort of what CO's argument would be, if it had been made by me, instead of by him.

For what you are proposing, scalpers would have to sit on seven and a half million dollars for over 8 months with no gaurentee of profit. Scalpers don't work on the long term investment plan. It is a straw man concern.

If we were were looking at a single scalper, or even a single ticket brokering agency, 7.5 millions dollars would, indeed, a devastating enough potential loss, that nobody would think of taking on that kind of exposure. But since when has the Internet ever brought in just one or even just a few people, at a time?

The fallacy in your argument is to be found in the fact that "the scalpers" aren't a monolith or a single company. They're an entire class of lowlife. If a mere 1,000 scalpers move in on this action, the potential loss on a 7.5 million dollar purchase drops to $7500 per individual or company, nothing that can't be quickly recovered. To see the weakness in your argument, let's apply it to another situation, and see the absurdity that results. To be sure that we're finding a solid lower bound, let's say that the average American eats 1/4 of a pound of meat per day, meat being priced at an implausibly low $2 per pound. That would give us over 75 million pounds of meat, to be purchased at a price of no less than 150 million dollars - and we can be more than reasonably sure that the real world figures will be higher than that. Let's apply your logic, and see what happens.

"Honestly, you're expecting us to believe this? That the supermarkets are going to put down $150 million dollars, to pick up 37.5 thousand tons ... that's tons, mind you ... of meat which they don't know will be sold, and which could go bad in just a few days if it isn't sold? This 'beef' theory of yours is sounding kind of far fetched, don't you think?"

It sounds funny, because the situation is familiar, and we know that yes, the supermarkets will obviously order a lot of meat, today, tomorrow, and so on, indefinitely. Obviously, the conclusion is absurd. But it's the same logic that you've just used, CO, and asked the rest of us to accept.


The OP has offered a sensible suggestion that deserves serious and rational consideration, not the flippant display of attitude to be found in a non-argument like the one I just rebutted. Are Burning Man tickets "a bargain"? Maybe if we foolishly insist that the Market must know best, but just to be different, let's try using our common sense. Aside from a few large installations funded by the LLC, all that one finds at Burning Man is what the participants have brought. Artists, as a group, aren't rich people. Let the ticket prices soar to the level the market will bear in the short run, rendering scalping an unprofitable business by eliminating the shortage generated by the sub-equilibrium pricing, and those starving artists are going to be replaced by stockbrokers and trustifarians who will arrive, look around, and seeing nothing because those who would have created something couldn't afford to come, will report that Burning Man was hugely overrated and something of a hoax. And they'll be right, because everything they would have seen had shortsighted greed not been the LLC's guide, will be gone, in that scenario.

Should the LLC really be ready to destroy its own event, just to please a handful of ideologues? Or should Burning Man go on being about something other than seeing just how much money can be squeezed out of those entering the gates, in the least amount of time? Somewhere, along the way, didn't I hear somebody say that this was supposed to be a non-commercial event? I could have sworn that somebody said that.

[BBadger]

there's a huge segment of the burner population who attend the event because they work at slave-like corporate jobs. their lives are so routine and boring that burning man is their chance each year to temporarily escape that lifestyle. these are the people who have the money and are willing to pay perhaps thousands for a ticket. to them, BM is a bargain at almost any price.

This caricature of such people seems pretty far fetched. If I were in a corporate slave-job my mind would be on the awesome vacation I'd be taking at the end of August that I was saving up all my vacation time for. I would have my ticket in hand the moment they were available as the very first measure in my plans, because they really would be plans.

when you work in something like a coffee house and throw fundraisers all year just to afford to bring your small art project out there - $1k for a ticket is a dream-killer.

So this person would be the same type of person who buys an airline ticket from Australia, rental for an RV, and yet doesn't buy the ticket? Because if I were paying to bring an art project to BM, the absolute very first thing I'd be purchasing is the ticket to get in the door.

i'm expecting 2012 tickets to sell out in a week (like coachella), so i'll be buying on day one. if it does sell out in a week, you'll have many fewer non-industrial art projects and services shared by individuals like me. you'll have even more (gasp) people out there whose highest level of participation would basically be operating a megaphone and interacting with the industrial sized art installations, thinking what a great deal that it only cost them $1k to get through the gate.

They won't. But even if they do (and they won't), I'll be prepared, just like you, the first week so I do get one. But as I've said before, Burning Man is not Coachella: Coachella doesn't attract the same type of people; it doesn't have easy accommodations; it's not as hard to travel to; it is only half the size of BM; and it has mainstream bands people want to see. BM may sell out again next year, and there will be scalpers. It won't be a problem though, because tickets will be available for a long time. I'll be surprised if they sell out by June, or hell, before this year's sell-out.

[starlightbright]

If I were in a corporate slave-job my mind would be on the awesome vacation I'd be taking at the end of August that I was saving up all my vacation time for. I would have my ticket in hand the moment they were available as the very first measure in my plans, because they really would be plans.

that doesn't change the demographic, though. most of these week-long warriors aren't paying attention to the burning man calendar because being a burner is something they are for 1 week a year. they buy their tickets after they've rallied enough people to go-in on an RV - usually pretty late in the game.

So this person would be the same type of person who buys an airline ticket from Australia, rental for an RV, and yet doesn't buy the ticket? Because if I were paying to bring an art project to BM, the absolute very first thing I'd be purchasing is the ticket to get in the door.

meaning the type of person who works in a coffee house? i don't think this would include international burners (excluding canadians) unless they threw some pretty big fund raisers.

Coachella doesn't attract the same type of people;

you mean, spectators?

it doesn't have easy accommodations;

burning man doesn't have easy accommodations.

it's not as hard to travel to;

that's right.

it is only half the size of BM;

do you mean in terms of area? in 2010, coachella had 75,000 spectators or more each day.

and it has mainstream bands people want to see.

burning man has mainstream DJs booked though agencies by bmorg.

BM may sell out again next year, and there will be scalpers. It won't be a problem though, because tickets will be available for a long time.

coachella tickets were being scalped for $800, and many people thought that was a good deal. professional scalpers scooped up hundreds of tickets each. i don't know why they'd leave burning man alone now that they know the event can actually sell out. the race will be on, and there will be tens thousands of dollars to be made by pro scalpers. i'd be surprised if tickets are available after one week.

[AntiM]

burning man has mainstream DJs booked though agencies by bmorg.

Pretty sure this is not true, they are booked directly by theme camp directors.

[graidawg]

I genuinely hope Bmorg has some kind of plan in place to prevent tickets selling out on day one or even the first week, perhaps selling the tiers in batches. over a period of a month so those who dont get paid on the first day have 3 more occasions to buy, thereby leaving the serious burner the real chance of getting a ticket. Or pre-registration to get a ticket or whatever. I would hate for tickets to go on sale say on a wednesday and sell out (HEY IT MIGHT HAPPEN) before i get paid.
Whatever they do, it seems as others have said scalpers ARE going to by tickets next year and the event will suffer because many who put on theme camps (or help run them) may not be able to afford an extra $7-800. I know for myself it would mean a long hard look at burning man vs nowhere or any of the other available options, from reading other english versions like secret garden party or wilderness both of which claim to be inspired by BM but dont let you bring your own booze (well 12 cans no spirits allowed) or even have a camp fire at least i can budget very very accurately for bm, unless i have to bid for a ticket on ebay.
Hell if it sells out next year im going to take up skydiving, then in 2013 i will skydive in through a display of fireworks.

[BBadger]

I genuinely hope Bmorg has some kind of plan in place to prevent tickets selling out on day one or even the first week, perhaps selling the tiers in batches. over a period of a month so those who dont get paid on the first day have 3 more occasions to buy, thereby leaving the serious burner the real chance of getting a ticket. Or pre-registration to get a ticket or whatever. I would hate for tickets to go on sale say on a wednesday and sell out (HEY IT MIGHT HAPPEN) before i get paid.

Give me a fucking break. Do you honestly live that hand-to-mouth that two days is going to make the difference? Here's an idea: why don't you save up money before the tickets go on sale so that you can buy the ticket immediately? You could even buy it on a credit card and pay for it a month later with absolutely no interest. What a concept.

Self-reliance only ON the playa huh?