Drivel meter is off the scale

[Igneouss]

Shaksepeare: "thou doest complain too much"

Thanks for so concisely demonstrating my point

[Igneouss]

AntiM,
I'm curious if the powers that be have ever discussed these issues?
It's the volume but it's also the social issues. A few white males dominate every conversation on this board. Sure we can find examples of other social groups that ignore them. But the real harm is the good folks that never post simply because they do not want to deal with being drowned out. Seems like a bit of scanning threads here would be enough to discourage lots of good people from ever participating, simply because they can't camp out here and respond to all the snark and drivel. I don't think that the few endless posters realize how unfriendly they make this place for many types of people.

Your thoughts appreciated...

[ygmir]

AntiM,
I'm curious if the powers that be have ever discussed these issues?
It's the volume but it's also the social issues. A few white males dominate every conversation on this board. Sure we can find examples of other social groups that ignore them. But the real harm is the good folks that never post simply because they do not want to deal with being drowned out. Seems like a bit of scanning threads here would be enough to discourage lots of good people from ever participating, simply because they can't camp out here and respond to all the snark and drivel. I don't think that the few endless posters realize how unfriendly they make this place for many types of people.

Your thoughts appreciated...

is that some sort of racist/sexist comment?

wow, I can only speak for me,

and, I'm sure you're finger is pointing my way, but, I sure don't try to be mean.
Sure, I crack jokes, poke fun, I'm not so good at snark. I help, at times. tease.
and, a lot of my posts, anyway, are in "familiar" threads, open discussion sorts and between known folks. But, as in "Da Bar 3", I like to think I welcome anyone new (knew? gnu?). Mostly, the exception to that, for me, is someone who shows up acting "entitled, pompous, elitist, narcissistic, etc.)

I might submit, that, (especially the 'open discussion" forum, is just that), and, folks mostly read and figure where and if they want to join in.
I suppose it's hard to quantify, how many are "scared off" due to infighting, inside jokes, snark, etc.........but, would wonder how it compares to those who see what's going on here, and, decide they'd like to join in, and that they like how this board works and the characters ensconced herein.

could it be a case of "it's just not the place, for everyone"?

But, I don't think newbs are purposefully excluded or castigated, for being as such.

[Kiro]

AntiM,
Seems like a bit of scanning threads here would be enough to discourage lots of good people from ever participating, simply because they can't camp out here and respond to all the snark and drivel. I don't think that the few endless posters realize how unfriendly they make this place for many types of people.

Absolutely 100% on the money.

I once suggested there should be an FAQ area with answers to all the virgin questions that crop up most regularly, so they can be directed there and the thread closed. This eliminates the problem of veterans getting pissed off with the same old questions, illuminates virgins to the answers they seek, gently shows them that they were lazy with their research and because the closed threads will quickly drop out of view, will improve the forum since visible threads will be more useful and interesting. I'm willing to do the lion's share of building the FAQ if others would consider it useful, though I acknowledge some people don't think the journey to the playa should be made too easy for newcomers.

Last year, my main problem here arose over generator questions. The only generator I could afford was loud, so I went in search of good baffle box designs. I was given grief for not being able to afford a Honda - which still strikes me as an incredibly shitty thing to say to a virgin trying to do the best they can - and told not to bring my generator because I wouldn't be respecting the community, I should listen to experience, etc. I built a double-walled baffle box, but ended up not using the generator at all and trying to find other solutions - but the camp next door had an even larger generator that they set up right next to our RV, and simply propped a piece of plywood gently against it. The camp behind us did much the same. You know what happened? We had the most amazing time of our lives, none of the noise or chaos did anything but add to our joy, I finally felt like I'd found my kind of tribe, and I regretted ever getting upset on here over what ultimately amounted to nothing at all. I gave the generator away to a new friend who's become someone I'll know my whole life, he'll make much better use of it.

The playa is nothing like the eplaya, which is a lot like most other internet forums, which is a terrible shame. It's quite telling that the veterans will snarl at anyone that feels entitled to anything at all, but Hushville is told that other camps deserve placement ahead of them and suddenly it's torches and pitchforks, how dare they do this, what a disgrace, they were right to feel entitled to their usual spot... and now AntiM is leaving?? I hope they're not related developments, AntiM is a great mod and I hope she reconsiders stepping down, but whatever the future holds, it will take more than a few tweaks to change the atmosphere of this board, and that's a challenge I'd love for us to embrace. <3 Love you guys. Really.

[Eric]

A few white males dominate every conversation on this board.

Um. Like who? MyDearFriend? AntiM? Cryptofishist? Savannah? CFM? Bay Bridge Sue? The Rebbi? Me? (I'm not considered "white" by most people who actually break people down by racial descriptives). This board is one of the most inclusive I've been on, in every area. Nobody cares your gender or skin tone if you have a clue what you're talking about.

To think otherwise means you either
A) are interpreting everyone as a white male you disagree with
B) don't bother to do some basic research before asking a question

How do you know who is what by their posts? I just discovered Illy Dilly was male- I thought he was a female for ages. I've been confused by the gender of quite a few people on here- who really cares? It's not the bits between their legs that makes them friends or not.

Basically you're saying you don't like the way the board functions and who posts on it, but you didn't bother to post for almost 2 years (Aug 26, 2009- July 12, 2011): aren't you part of the problem by not doing anything to change that which you don't like? Remember that whole "doacracy" thing about Burning Man?

I really wonder if you only allow people on the playa to stay "on topic": ie "I'm bartending now so I can only take drink orders, I don't do small talk". Basically what you call "drivel" here is just small talk & relationship building in real life. Kind of sad you can't see that.

Besides, how do we know you're not a white male yourself?

[Eric]

AntiM,
Seems like a bit of scanning threads here would be enough to discourage lots of good people from ever participating, simply because they can't camp out here and respond to all the snark and drivel. I don't think that the few endless posters realize how unfriendly they make this place for many types of people.

Absolutely 100% on the money.

I once suggested there should be an FAQ area with answers to all the virgin questions that crop up most regularly, so they can be directed there and the thread closed.

Kiro- you've been around for two years- haven't you figured out that eplaya is the bastard step-child of the org? Things don't happen here for ages, and when they happen it's as much a shock to the "regular posters" as it is to anybody else.

There used to be a FAQ thread years ago, who knows what happened to it. Feel free to start a new one and ask people to try to keep it on topic. You might be shocked at how helpful people want to be around here. Remember- we're hanging out here because we actually like the event enough to want it in our lives year round. Of course you might also discover the thread is going to wander like every other thread on every other board I've ever been on...

Those bits you (and Igneouss) think of as "snark & drivel" are the bits that keep us coming around- we're not paid, we're not required to be here & I think we do a pretty damn good job at helping newbies out who are serious. You come in asking for miracle tickets or without even bothering to read the First Timers Guide- yeah, you're going to get pounced on. Guess what- I'd treat you the same on the playa if you were that incompetent.

[jkisha]

Second post today I posted and it disappeared. I don't have the energy to try to duplicate all I wrote, so I'll just sum it up with a big FUCK YOU to all you winers and complainers. That's the only comment you deserve now get out of our sandbox if you don't know how to play well with the others.

[Elorrum]

Now I am curious. Will it be possible to put the drivel meter back on the scale so we can see once and for all what it weighs?

[Eric]

That's the only comment you deserve now get out of our sandbox if you don't know how to play well with the others.

I have to disagree with this part- it's not "our" sandbox, we just play in it more. It's the sandbox of anyone who wants to play in it, with the caveat that if you don't like the way things happen around here it's up to you to be proactive in changing it. Whining doesn't change a thing.

[jkisha]

OK I guess I'm going to have to try and duplicate my post.

All of us "old timers" were once new to eplaya. That's a prerequisite to becoming an old timer. If you notice, there is an entire crop of new people this year that are well on their way to becoming old timers.

Those people have taken their time to read and understand the culture and tone of the board before posting. In other words they have taken the time to learn how to be a good citizen here. This is no different than on the playa or in a class at school or moving into a new neighborhood.

There rarely is a question asked by a new eplaya citizen that hasn't already been asked and answered at least ten times before--most answered in the FAQ section of the board. Anyone that logs on and takes a half hour looking around would know the response that even the newer members give to people asking basic FAQ questions would know better than to ask one.

Anyone that feels they don't fit in here, I would posit, would probably have similar problems fitting in in real life too.

You won't be accepted here anymore than anywhere else unless you are intuitive enough to learn, adapt and fit into the culture. I don't have a lot of sympathy for those lacking said skills.

You can't force people like you.

That's the only comment you deserve now get out of our sandbox if you don't know how to play well with the others.

I have to disagree with this part- it's not "our" sandbox, we just play in it more. It's the sandbox of anyone who wants to play in it, with the caveat that if you don't like the way things happen around here it's up to you to be proactive in changing it. Whining doesn't change a thing.

[Kiro]

Second post today I posted and it disappeared. I don't have the energy to try to duplicate all I wrote, so I'll just sum it up with a big FUCK YOU to all you winers and complainers. That's the only comment you deserve now get out of our sandbox if you don't know how to play well with the others.

Is that directed at me?!

[jkisha]

I don't know. Does the shoe fit?

Second post today I posted and it disappeared. I don't have the energy to try to duplicate all I wrote, so I'll just sum it up with a big FUCK YOU to all you winers and complainers. That's the only comment you deserve now get out of our sandbox if you don't know how to play well with the others.

Is that directed at me?!

[Kiro]

I don't know. Does the shoe fit?

I don't think so, I'm trying to be pro-active and have a discussion, you're the one throwing your toys out of the pram because someone dared to challenge the status-quo.

[FIGJAM]

The upper right hand corner of every page has the FAQ!

[Kiro]

The upper right hand corner of every page has the FAQ!

That's not a Burning Man FAQ, that's a phpBB FAQ.

[FIGJAM]

Yeah, but it tells how to search.

[Kiro]

Yeah, but it tells how to search.

Yeah but if newcomers were willing to search, this place or Google, then none of this would be an issue. Since they can't, or don't, and there are problems with people angry at the constant stream of answered questions, that's why I think one area with all the usual questions linked to answers is worth considering.

[jkisha]

Well then, I wouldn't worry about it. Your posts will have little to no effect on the status quo for all of the reasons I stated in my previous post. But have fun trying.

I don't know. Does the shoe fit?

I don't think so, I'm trying to be pro-active and have a discussion, you're the one throwing your toys out of the pram because someone dared to challenge the status-quo.

[Kiro]

Don't sit around telling someone else to do it,

I offered to do all the work, but was interested in the discussion first because some people do act like helping newbies is ruining the event.

In a discussion on whether the interaction on here can sometimes get shitty without much reason, and that it creates an atmosphere we don't necessarily want to continue, this discussion has quickly turned shitty, I've been told to fuck off, and you're telling me not to sit around telling someone else to do work that I just offered to do. It's a bit.. weird, isn't it?

[jkisha]

No, it's not weird in the least. If you were so offended whe. You were told to fuck off, why are you still here?

If someone tells me to fuck off and I don't think it was appropriate I give it right back.

We are more than helpful, are you expecting that we wipe a new person's ass too? Whatever happened to radical self reliance. A new person shouldn't be expected to at least read the first timer's guide?

Should we welcome with open arms people that come here with the sole purpose of trying to find some gullible sucker to buy them a ticket? Hell, if they can't afford a ticket they shouldn't be going in the first place.

There are already sticky posts that cover all of the basic information. Maybe you haven't noticed?

So, if this place is so terrible, how is it you managed to stay around for so long?

Don't sit around telling someone else to do it,

I offered to do all the work, but was interested in the discussion first because some people do act like helping newbies is ruining the event.

In a discussion on whether the interaction on here can sometimes get shitty without much reason, and that it creates an atmosphere we don't necessarily want to continue, this discussion has quickly turned shitty, I've been told to fuck off, and you're telling me not to sit around telling someone else to do work that I just offered to do. It's a bit.. weird, isn't it?

[Kinetik V]

Yawn. Tempest in a teapot. Eplaya poster children get their knickers tied in knots. Film at 11.

<soapbox / f bomb alert>
This board is so full of crap from the DVD Burner days (I like him but damn he cranked out a lot of crappy threads) that it's a pain in the ass to use it. Case in Point: I have about 95% of my camping and Burning Man gear in Nebraska while I'm in Las Vegas. I've got 5 weeks to buy a Burning Man ticket and then figure out how in the hell to cram everything I need into a little tiny Ford Focus 5 door and being a guy who hauled a 5x12 cargo box and pickup truck loaded with shit just to make it 5 days in BRC by myself no less...well this is one hell of an adjustment. So I turn to the eplaya...the deep well of knowledge that served me well for so many years and after a couple of hours of wading through shit I finally said fuck it and Google the fuck out of things...and I'm still no fucking closer to figuring out what I need (more importantly what I don't) than I was when I started.

I was hoping when the board got revamped that they would have a convenient OOPS moment and flush a lot of the crap out of here. Too bad that didn't happen.

We need several FAQ's, we need fresh blood in the form of new faces, we need people asking the questions again and this time we need to get stickies made so we can find the shit we need and fast. Snark is fun...but the needs of the community that I've finally woken up and realized exists (thansk to the kick ass Nebraska and Vegas regionals)...trumps my need for snark and attitude. (Unless they just give you an opening that's just too good to pass up). One thing we don't need is the stereotyping. I might be a white male but I fall into 7 different protected or recognized classes...so I ain't buying the white males are the reason why this board sucks bullshit. Ain't fucking happening. So...are we going to rebuild this place or are we going to sit around with more online bitch fests?
</soapbox>

P.S. Anyone asking for free tickets...where's Badger when you need him? Or Laughing Forest? Yeah, don't ask for a break from the snark for those posts. Ain't ever happening.

Edit: By the way I'll do my best to contribute meaningful posts and content to any stickies or FAQ's that get started. I don't have time to start it...but I'll certainly try and participate and make it count.

[gaminwench]

Shakespeare wrote:

'The lady doth protest too much, methinks'
Hamlet...
III,ii

Is it too much to ask that one do the basic research?
or that one make introduction, before begging or criticizing?

I read, and lurked for a loong time before posting;
I've been hit by flaming snark, and survived;
I've made friends, (and maybe enemies )
I've learned a hell of a lot;
and I love this strange, diverse community...

as I love the utterly unique Black Rock City, in which we,
along with + 45,000 other creative beings,
(I know the population is likely to be 50,000; I've left room for sparkleponies & yahoos-is it enough?)
will recharge our humanity and creativity,
build incredible things,
live in community,
and revel in our collective fabulousness.

oh, and BLOW s**t UP!

join us!

[graidawg]

Ok my contribution to this post.

about 6 months ago i was a newcomer here, i asked stupid questions, got snarked, lost my temper and shouted (well wrote loudly) at other eplayans. quess what, they took it gave it back and now i get along just fine with them. I've put up drivel posts and stupid posts (even got told off for one) I've put up posts that absolutely nothing to do with burning man and got replies answering my questions.
I've seen a few people come after me and dissapear just as quickly, A few have come in and joined the party and i cant wait to meet them and all the other people on here. As long I dont meltdown and dissapear into the deep playa for a week i am sure i will meet some of them- hopefully more than some
what have I got out of it? A better understanding of why people keep going back to BRC to play with fire, make art and the 60,000 other reasons anyone goes. I've got the promise of (((hugs))) in real life (and a few already) people i call friends and wish i could do a little more to help the few in real need RIGHT NOW. Some of those friends - from on here have helped make BM possible this year, without them i just wouldn't be able to go, even though ive bought my ticket - and airfare. why do they do it?
Ok first because I worked out how to contribute, second because i've put effort into making burning man happen for me, and they've helped with the rest. They like (i think) me because i've shown i dont whine about what i dont like, I suck it up and work round it.
so basically dont like it? deal with it or change it, dont whine about it do something if you start and its good then others will join in being helpful. or if you get it wrong they will snark you then sugest how to do it better

[MyDearFriend]

Hooray, Graidawg, we are in the same boat and have had the same wonderful experience here.

But, I am still seeing red about Kiro et all who cannot fucking LOOK for the FAQ thread, WTF is your problem, really, that you whine & complain about how nobody made a FAQ thread for you after 2 years here do you not understand "Do-ocracy" all the while you do not even LOOK for one, in the Q&A subforum where it belongs, where it is stickied for your ease and convenience, to the top of the first page. I hereby point you to:

http://eplaya.burningman.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4488

If that seems incomplete to you, please fix it yourself or STFU.

Okay, okay, I do not usually rant & rave like that, sorry if I hurt your feelings, but, geez I am a professional ass-wiper in real life and I come here to hang with peeps who value self-reliance. And, valuing self-reliance myself, I read all the way back to 2003 before I asked my first question. Read and learn; you'll be amazed how well that works...

[Igneouss]

Still hoping to hear from AntiM...
To simplify my question (from the 2nd post on the 2nd page):
Have or will the moderators/owners consider these issues a bit? I strongly believe there is a majority of people that should/could, but do not, use this forum simply because they do not want to deal with the issues mentioned here. It's like hazing. It's all good fun except for the people that think it's bullying and never join the club.

But maybe the prime directive here is to be a social club for the 50 or so people that are most active. I guess I thought this place was supposed to be a forum for burners of all types to share information. Am I wrong?

[AntiM]

I understand your concerns about this being a good ole burner club. We have been working on it, however, the censorship angle is worse than overly active posters. Smoothing things over by removing objectionable posts always backfires, leaving up objectionable posts makes some people bitch, whine and moan that bad things were said to them. You can't win here, someone is always too sensitive, someone is always too harsh. None of the moderators are supposed to be running a day care, wiping snotty noses, stinky asses and kissing booboos. We're adults, Some are even rational.

For example, I boot nonsense threads in certain forums such as Introductions, tickets, Q&A, Share Resources, the theme camp and art and performance forums. I try to demand that whenever a newbie asks a question, that serious replies are made before a snarky reply is made. This board has been much improved as a result. It is not, and never will be, perfect.

Open discussion is just that and gets wild. That's fine. Those begging for a manifestation, alright, I don't like how harsh folks get, but really, some people are just asking for it.

Are there users here who piss me off to no end? Yes. Do I want to scream every time I see some of the useless threads? Of course. Do I reprimand the unruly? Yes, in private (knock that shit off) Will we censor this? Not much and not often.

Actually, I have formally resigned. So it isn't "I" or "me" or "we" anymore. Will there be changes? Not a lot. Will my hard work be undone? No, I'll still be around to remind everyone that the eplaya isn't their personal playground. I may not be in a formal position in the near future, but you better bet that I will have a heavy presence here.

[Igneouss]

Thanks AntiM. As usual your reasoned response is appreciated. I didn't realize you were no longer a mod here. That's a bummer. I hope it's best for you.

Cheers
Igneouss

[AntiM]

Don't make me pull this board over, you two!

[jkisha]

Don't make me pull this board over, you two!

[MyDearFriend]

Thanks AntiM. As usual your reasoned response is appreciated. I didn't realize you were no longer a mod here. That's a bummer. I hope it's best for you.

Cheers
Igneouss

Oh please, don't pretend you weren't doing your damnedest to bring this about. You are unbelievable, even for a sock puppet.

I now have a use for the "Foe" button, hooray...