What ever it once had, it no longer has...

[PetsUntilEaten]

aw shucks! (blush).

I do like the idea of a year off. (Not that I'm voluntering that as my vote.) It certainly sounds like it would be really interesting in terms of the BLM, the BMorg - and my own: "well what do I do next august?". I think we are clever animals that fill needs as they arise & all that energy would have to go somewhere, right? Where would it go?

But I bet the down year'll happen eventually on it own.

My own father gave me some of the news paper hype about Kathy's tradgedy & thought there's gonna be a big fight to end Burningman. All I could say was - The sky is always falling on Burningman, Dad. But Burners are too highly skilled & motivated. It would be like having someone come to your country club & say that the government wanted the land your golf course is on. You aren't the kind of people who listen to that kind of bs & neither are we. We just have to use more skills than money to get our way.

Struggle. struggle. struggle.

[stuart]

>booze = yahoo< heh, hah, harumph.
One of the things I did not like about '02 was that I had to severely ration my beer. One of the things that made '03 better was that for our 3 guy camp (yeah, that's right, only 3 guys did a fairly decent A/V installation on the esplanade) we brought 90 tecates in cans. Whooohooo, talk about improving the event! Enough to share with some friends. I still don't think I ever got drunk though. Hmmmm... that gives me an idea on how to make '04 even better.

[tbone]

Mine is not an idle bitch. My experience was a drag and I won't return (quiet please), but I do not presume to take this event away from anyone else.

Make up your mind please.
Didnt you just suggest that it not happen in '04?

You're making the troll-o-meter start to beep.

I say let everyone who seeks to spend a week getting drunk and stupid have every opportunity to do so. I would also not presume to put everyone at BM under my critical umbrella

Cool. You can contradict yourself in back to back statements.

beeeep... beeeep...

My expectations may have been a little high though

Really?

"If you want to see cool art and wild shit, that's the place. But as for all the hype about gifting, friendliness, sharing, community, open-mindedness, well... you're on your own."

<Mikey voice>
Oh oh, look at me
Look at me I'm Dragonfly
I'm here to preach openmindedness
I'm doing it by saying you're all drunken yahoos
There's gifting, no friendliness, no sharing, no community...

If you aren't just like me you're closed minded.
Ohhh ohhh look at me!!!
</Mikey voice>

<looks down at troll-o-meter>
Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep

[TestesInSac]

Seems very much in the same vein of the "America, Love it or Leave It" mentality.

I can't really blame folks, most especially first-timers, from mooning over the event; I did myself. What's changed is my perception of the people (plural, generic) and the event, which are inseparable, IMO. I found out that it's best to keep certain opinions to oneself during the event, however commonplace they may be in the misnamed "default world". That gave lie to "radical self-expression" and "inclusivity" in the same fell swoop.

I also realized that I have far more freedom at smaller events, or alone altogether, at the same lat/lon as they place the golden spike. And unlike the attendees of the event (as opposed to "denizens of BRC", another misnomer), the playa judges me by precisely one criteria, that being my preparedness for it. That I find comforting, and that, I think, is lost to the event.

[stuart]

father gave me some of the news paper hype about Kathy's tradgedy & thought there's gonna be a big fight to end Burningman.

some folks got pretty badly crunched at Disneyland last week. I don't see the press calling for it's closure.

[olivia]

Seems very much in the same vein of the "America, Love it or Leave It" mentality.

no one says, "how about we just take a year off being america," or "america sucks, let's close down the country." that would be ridiculous. as is wanting to shut down burning man because some percentage of people didn't have as good a time as they expected.

seems to me more like what pets/zane/stuart et all are saying is, "if you don't like that coffee shop, go to the one down the road, or start your own," rather than "love it or leave it." going to a different festival is a lot different than leaving the place where you live.

what the topic starter is suggesting is like "this coffee shop sucks, i'm going to tell the owners to close it down even though thousands of other people love it."

oh, and while i really enjoy looking at people who express themselves through their dress (and really enjoy doing that myself) - it is totally lame to assume everyone not in "costume" is a rapist fratboy spectator. some people are painters, poets, sculptors, dancers, singers or actors - not all are costume/dress makers and body painters.

i hope that burning man skips a year if that's what the organisers need to do at any point. however, even if i decided to stop going, i would be extremely sad if it stopped happening. no matter how popular the event gets, it doesn't stop it from being amazing and one-of-a-kind, a haven for freaks and geeks, hippies, geniuses, artists and slackers. i want more, not less, places in the world for these people to be happy and play, even if i no longer wanted to participate.

[jaywalker]

<Mikey voice>
Oh oh, look at me

Damn...I missed that one. I can only hear Jet's voice doing that

[Guest]

I often think "this is my last year" right before I depart, then I encounter a virgin burner in my camp and I see the event through their eyes, and all the possibilities it has to offer and I'm invested for another year.

Somehow we lucked into this philosophy early on. Ever since our first year, we make a point to invite a virgin with us each year. I've never failed to be invigorated by seeing the event through a virgin's eyes.

[tbone]

<Mikey voice>
Oh oh, look at me

Damn...I missed that one. I can only hear Jet's voice doing that

You haven't lived till you've heard Mikey do it, and it's aimed at you.

It's hard to resist the urge to kill him, but it's damn funny when it's over.

[PetsUntilEaten]

stuart -

yeah, but they're not supporting a venue for naked, drugged-out hippy freaks that are a danger to national security - I mean, I've seem the tiny one bedroom apartment of my tesla coil building friend : Can you say UNIBOMBER? The guy gets most of his website hits from the government (thats the benefit of running your own tech support & server). I wouldn't trust us - WE'RE CRAZY!

Cas - lots of first timers hate it too. I overheard one guy at the '01 burn - yelling at his friends "i was suppose to have this great epiphany - this great experience - but - but i'm just dirty & I hate it here!" when my friends went to comfort him - all I could say is "its a beautiful story, I hope its true."

and then there's guy who thought he didn't need to read the website or the detailed camp e-newsletter I wrote & sent everyone - because he was my boyfriend. Apparently he stopped listening evertime I spoke as well. Then he was shocked that there were chores - and that it was hot - and everyone didn't love him - and no one was nice to him - and where did i put things for him to give to people so that they would like him and . . . - and . . .

still . . . . so . . . . bitter . . . .

must . . . stop . . . typing . . . .

drifting . . . . into . . . stupid . . . personal . . . crap . . . .

[precipitate]

> not in "costume" is a rapist fratboy spectator.

I'm getting a shirt made that says rapist fratboy spectator. Think I should cut the nipples out of that one, too?

[theshaman]

This was my second year and I spent it helping organize a theme camp (Nuclear Family and Porch Camp) ending up doing more work than play. Definately NOT the experience of my first Burn.

I often see the conversation of small and intimate versus "let it do what it will" and I always tend to default to the second. BM is a social experiement and trying to limit it in scale defeats the purpose in my book. Yahoo's suck, theft sucks, violence sucks. Drugged out hippies pissing IN you camp suck (had to deal with that this year) but the overall experiment is worth it.

Also many of the Old timers in Nuclear family DID take a year off this year. their reasons were to remember what it was all about and appreciate it more next year. Sometimes a good policy.

[atari-x]

It's ok to be critical of the event and pointing out how it's changing.

(You can figure out what it is you're looking for and find it elsewhere if need be).

Just don't be one of those peeps who think "there's nothing like it(bm) in the world!". Cus, well, thats just simply not true_yet so entertaining.

Keep it movin.

[TestesInSac]

> not in "costume" is a rapist fratboy spectator.

I'm getting a shirt made that says rapist fratboy spectator. Think I should cut the nipples out of that one, too?

Just make sure they get the word order right.

rapist fratboy spectator != fratboy rapist spectator != spectator rapist fratboy, etc.

[PJ]

I'm getting a shirt made that says rapist fratboy spectator.

Instead I suggest:

fratboy, rapist, spectator

Attach the first comma with velcro so you can change your role as the situation evolves.

Think I should cut the nipples out of that one, too?

That's a good policy for everybody. Even the Pope.

[Jefferson Starship]

8) they should be strung up and dragged behind a team of bikes !!!!!!

...if you're looking for a team of bikes to make such enforcement possible next year, then look me up. In addition to our other duties, the Soul Sonic Force bike patrol will be attempting to deal with the problem of bike theft on the playa. One of our plans is to set up outside a dance venue and take note of who gets off each bike and then look out for would-be thieves or "borrowers" who attempt to ride off with said bicycle. Stern warnings will be given to deter further "borrowing", hopefully spreading the word that Big Brother is watching those who surely need to be watched. If that doesn't work, well....you know how creative we Burners are.


And don't call me Tron, thank you very much.

[jaywalker]

Just make sure they get the word order right.

rapist fratboy spectator != fratboy rapist spectator != spectator rapist fratboy, etc.

I think I'd look swell in my cheerleading skirt with a "spectating fratboy rapist" t-shirt.

then again, there is nothing like overalls and the gazillion pockets available.

hey wait...I was called a spectating ayhoo this year while wearing my overalls. They weren't fooled by my red/orange hair.

Back to topic... I don't feel it has the same impact on me as my 1st. Each year was something different, and I appreciate that aspect.

The thing that stays the same is all the damn trash on burn night.

But wandering around with pretty cool virgin on burn night this year, let me see their amazement. I'm on the fence about next year. I don't need it in my life to figure my soul out. I do that all year now. I know a great bunch of folks. If I want to go, it's just for the fun and maybe seeing something new out there.

I probably will go, since I want to see the looks on the sophmores next year that are still chattign my ear off

to re-iterate...overalls are the best costumes! easily hold 9 full beers & water, and much more empties from all those wonderful bars

[tbone]

This was my second year and I spent it helping organize a theme camp (Nuclear Family and Porch Camp) ending up doing more work than play. Definately NOT the experience of my first Burn.

We have usually had 15 to 30 people camp in our group and it's always worked well. We don't try and organize anything except layout.

We don't have organized meals (although people are more than willing to share). We don't have communal anything (although people are more than willing to share). We trust each other, and we spend a lot of time together and know what to expect. We really trust each other.

Typical way we do things:
One guy wanted a bar, so he organized it. He asked for help from somebody who had done it before (what ratio of booze:mixers, what booze is popular, how do you keep trash at a minimum...) than sent a list of what he was planning on bringing, and added if you want to contribute do so, but it's your choice. Most people did, but not everybody.
It was his bar, but we all used it. It was his responsability to get it there, keep it clean, keep the bozos out, take care of the trash, take it apart, return all the crap home. But almost everybody helped, without anybody asking.

It's funny, but as I write this it sounds like some kind of idealistic hippy commune, and it absolutely wasn't

I think what makes it work for us is trust, respect and knowing what to expect. Knowing that somebody has your back is really important. There's at least three people here who camped with me this year, plus III who should have.

Rambling now... from what I can tell, and what I've been told, the more organized camps don't seem to work as well. I hear horror stories every year about camps falling apart because of work loads, expectations, personalities, plans that didn't work quite right, etc. I think the playa is too spontanious for "dinner is at 5:30; you have to be here".

My $0.28

[bgirl]

[quote="dragonfly"]
"If you want to see cool art and wild shit, that's the place. But as for all the hype about gifting, friendliness, sharing, community, open-mindedness, well... you're on your own."

That's the point Dragonfly, you ARE on your own!!!!!!!!!!!What you decide to bring,create,BE,experience,etc,etc,etc.......is going to be of your own volition. You did admit to having "some," expectations(come on ,girl,you expected the world,tied up nicely with a pretty ribbon to boot!) ,and that my friend, was your downfall or shall I say fatal mistake, as far as enjoying anything goes.As for the comment of," if you choose to be drunk ,stupid people," sort of thing, all that really tells me is that was,SADLY, your experience of the desert and/or the people on it, too bad for you.Trust me ,what you put out/in is what you get ,in ,"REAL," life not just the desert . There is a saying which has,however ,"Fake," or cheesy served me well,it is ,"FAKE IT TILL YOU FEEL IT!!!!!!!!!"You might think this is nuts,but the next time you are feeling crappy ,try smiling or being nice to someone or something,you'd be surprized how much better,happier you will feel and how LIMITING your previous mood,or negative emotions were and how after doing so, give way to a endless realm of possibilities for yourself and those around you. 'Nuff said!(about this issue anyway!he he))

[olivia]

I'm getting a shirt made that says rapist fratboy spectator. Think I should cut the nipples out of that one, too?

hey i hear they're selling them at center camp next year. pre cut and all. REMEMBER TO TIP!!!!

[bgirl]

8) they should be strung up and dragged behind a team of bikes !!!!!!

...if you're looking for a team of bikes to make such enforcement possible next year, then look me up. In addition to our other duties, the Soul Sonic Force bike patrol will be attempting to deal with the problem of bike theft on the playa. One of our plans is to set up outside a dance venue and take note of who gets off each bike and then look out for would-be thieves or "borrowers" who attempt to ride off with said bicycle. Stern warnings will be given to deter further "borrowing", hopefully spreading the word that Big Brother is watching those who surely need to be watched. If that doesn't work, well....you know how creative we Burners are.

Stupendous idea JS, might be some good fun in that there idea of yours.Best thing could be to tell everyone you know to BRING A LOCK!!!!!I realize that if they want it(or in) bad enough ,no lock'll kept 'em out,but I think it will raise awareness, for the bike owner, at least enough for them to realize the shit will disappear if it is left unattended.AS for the stern warnings idea,lets go a little further capitan,how about some signs that state" a unsuccessful bike thief is wearing this sign," etc...........Anyway ,I plan on getting my ass back on a bike in the desert this year, and I would gladly drag a few bike thieves around the desert with you and the ssf patrol .Keep us posted Jim.

[dj big E]

I would just like to point out that just because someone doesn't have a costume doesn't mean they dont participate I only had costumes for two nights yet i was theyre for 5 nights i also put in some time on art installations as well as the erection of a 74 foot tower with a green light on the top so i could find my way back to the mothership lmao.not trying to be a hater dragonfly but to presume someone is not on your level of participation because they are not wearing a costume is a big presumption.lmao i am not a lurker nor a thief lmao but i don't allways were a costume either lmao.Lets here about the fun you had out theyre i no amongst all the little probs i allways have a great time and believe me i have been through some shit out theyre.anyways i will make sure to make 3 costumes for nekt year and i hope you catch me in one of them lmao.And buy the way would all the creepy nude jesus sheet imitator guys lurking around the playa with that weird look in you're eye please put on a glowstick or something if i run into another one of you guys i am going to freak lmao dj big "E"

[Booker]

Well, perhaps not the Pope. (Love the velcro comma, though, PJ!)

>><sigh> Now I'm falling in love with you... <<

Hey! Dammit, Zane, there's a line. Step on back, big boy.

"I like the experiment. I like the struggle. " WORD, muthafucka!!!

BM ain't gonna change your life, dragonfly (or anyone thinking about attending). YOU can change your life, at Burningman or elsewhere, if you're thinking it needs changed. Or not. But own the decision and the process, eh?

[captain mcguiver]

I've got all loads of friends who went in the early 90's who don't go anymore because of things like "mapped streets". These guys are almost as dumb as newbie frat rapists. I ask them, "Well, what did you do then that week?" I thought so.

I will stop going to Burning Man when I see a Mcdonalds there. No number of jerk-off frat boys will keep me from the beautiful people I HAVE TO SEEK OUT (Or not).

Yes, that's it. If you don't like what you are experiencing, move over 10 feet. If you can't FIND love and ART at Burning Man regardless of the year, you are a BAD spectator. Go out and create what you feel is lacked. Go out and find someone who has already done it. I ignore frat boy spectators. It's real easy. I felt like one my first burn when I misjudged temperature and wore my quicksilver jacket all night. I felt invisible, but didn't hold burners bresponsible for not showering me with gifts. I learned. Next year I came back with a better wardrobe. But who cares what you wear.

A bad day at Burning Man blows the hood off any good day somewhere else. If you don't know this yet, please return to the Go square and start over.

However, if your uncontrollabel whining tick makes you absolutely have to bitch. Please don't come back and ruin my time. I commend all that disagree and choose to not return instead of returning and helping to ADD to the negativity.

my
0.02$

CM

[dj big E]

By the way dragonfly one of my good friends got his bike ripped off last year out at the duck anyways this year when we caught a would be thief red handed by the thunderdome stealing one of our bikes we handled it the old fashioned way needless to say after my camp mate grabbed him we forced our views about stealing into his head and then turned him over to br ranger nekt one i catch is going up with the man dam thieves. cya big "E" 350+ days

[PetsUntilEaten]

(I'm beginning to think we need a THUNDERDOME thread. Two sides enter - one side flames the shit out of the other until they run away . . .)

Not that I'm all love & light & shit - - -

But in listening to some radio shows on the nature of God (JOE FRANK's Mystery : from The Other Side) One point they made was that spirituality is relationship between you & "God". So that denial, doubt and anger are also valid aspects of spirituality. Many great theologians & priests & such have become agnostic and atheistic for periods of time. In fact, to not doubt the existance of God in light of the great suffering of the world seems only rational.

So (sorry for making this leap - look away if you must) isn't doubting & denying Burningman truely in "the spirit of Burningman" - isn't it part of our relationship with it too?

struggle struggle struggle.

[Iago]

This is sort of a dumb question, but has anyone here been forced to go to Burning Man?

[Guest]

[Eric]

I am so very tired of the "I hate this so I'm taking my red wagon home" crap I've been reading on ePlaya the last week.

If you don't like the event anymore, or don't like the way it's changing, Do Something About It.

Quit coming (and quit being a martyr about it).
Bring more of what you want to see or do (and don't act all high and mighty about it- do it because You Want To)
Find a way to get further involved (volunteer for Info, or the Rangers, or the Earth Guardians, or any of the non-BMorg groups)
But quit whining and expecting the world to revolve around your expectations. I could care less why you're not coming- I want to spend my time with people who Want To Be There. People who go looking for fun, however they define it, not Looking For Reasons To Be Miserable (yes, I like using capital letters. Deal)

And this is from a newbie- I just made my first trip to Burning Man. Luckily I came with knowledge of the event (you can't help getting lots of background when you're travelling with the Piss Clear staff)

I expected to be much more jaded than I was. I was against the idea of themes, I was tired of bad techno before I even hit the playa, I'm already tired of playa names- my playa name is Eric. My real name is Eric. Easy. "ShutterSlut" is my nickname and website- not something I normally get called.

I know all about the problems with yahoos, drunks and speeding art cars, almost hitting darkwads every night, stolen bikes and toys and the Disnification of the Burn. I even had my precious camera, my LifeBlood in San Francisco, cop out on me after two days, leaving me without my main "reason" to be there.... my bike tire blew the second day, my flashlight went missing, I'm sick of Tasty Bites and didn't bring enough cranberry juice for my vodka.

Guess what? I had a blast, and will be back next year. And the year after.
Probably more, but I have trouble planning next week, so more than two years out is a problem.

I didn't let any of the little crap bug me, and, other than the camera, things worked themselves out. Even the lack of the camera allowed me to immerse myself in my first Burn more than I would have with it around my neck. Any of these things could have dampened my fun if I had gotten worked up about them, but why bother. Too much effort when there's a great conversation to be had, a "party-float" to ride across to Sol System, an undergound party to throw in the giant urinal, a blinky light tour to take at 3am just to see what is hiding out on the playa....

If you're unhappy with the event, take time off.
Or take a virgin. I think Adrian and Deidre were glad to have a pack of us in the RV, babbling and exploring and discovering what is out there to see.

Are there a ton of "yahoos" out there? Yes
Is oogling naked womens boobs and bits way too common? Yes (well, not for me, but I am guilty of checking out a few ..dozen...naked boys asses...)
Is there too much techno and bland music? Yes
Is there everything bad that has been posted on ePlaya? Yes.
None of which got in my way.

There are also great people, amazing art, strange perfect music, and experiences that just don't occur in a normal week in the city (blinky light tours tend to happen within the confines of my head here) -all the fun you want, if you're willing to let yourself find it.

If you think Burning Man is crap, it will be. Simple as that.

Just do what you need to do and quit blabbing about it and expecting the world to change for you.
Do It Yourself.
(this was not brought to you by Nike)


And I want the "fratboy,rapist,spectator" shirt if someone makes them. It will compliment my "Almost Fuckable" and "Babies: the only STD you can eat" shirts.

[nymphgonebad]

[/quote]
I hate this shit. I am no moonie. Each of my years has been different. There are many ways to ride the burning man ride. Expectations will kill you.

And fuck off for thinking, because I was not in costume during the day, that I was there for the nudity. I slaved for 9 months to give your faery wing wearing ass an art installation. I was a little too busy with that to contemplate what color to paint my nuts.

For pete's sake. If you aren't into it, don't fucking go. And please don't hang out here and tell the rest of us, who are already thinking about how we might make next year even better, how it was only cool when you thought it was cool. Go throw yer own goddamned event.

>whew<[/quote]

what stu said. again.

the princess