Is democracy fading away,,,, should it ?

[gyre]

CSS, not sure what you mean by capitalism, but it matters in this context, and democracy has a million variants too.

If you mean unchecked capitalism, we know that never works long, contrary to fairy tales.
The usa is a good example.

How these issues are dealt with determines what type of country you'll have, and whether you'll even have any choices about democracy.

Want to see unregulated capitalism at work?
I would direct your attention to Somalia.

[madmatt]

What is this "democracy" of which you speak?

[can't sit still]

GOV just doesn't seem to consider the costs of it's actions. Here's a quote; " Pelosi, who pushed for it all along, and really, was the significant player in bringing this
about. She was recently quoted as saying, “Yes, we do need to read the health care bill to see what the implications are. The first thing we need to do it get is passed, and then we can read it and see what the implications
are.â€

[can't sit still]

Madmat, It's dem-ocracy,,, closely related to dem-olition

[Trishntek]

The bottom line is the bottom line here. The program which has been passed is simply not sustainable without compromising status quo. Whether it is private or public insurance, to cover 30 million more people thinking at the same time that the overall amount of money spent on healthcare is somehow going to decrease is simply lunacy. Either we will be taxed into oblivion or services will diminish. What I suspicion will take place is both.

[gyre]

The new program is far from adequate.
The massive and growing cost of running the health care denial bureaucracy is where much of the money should come from, by shutting it down.

The existing approach has already proved to be unsustainable.

It is a good thing that some people will be slightly less likely to be denied coverage, but much more needs to be done.

[can't sit still]

I believe that most of the expense is in the bureaucracy. I was touring around Havana in a Coco;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vhmJRSg ... re=related
The girl who was my guide got something in her eye. We went to a hospital and walked in, She explained what happened. They cleaned out her eye and we left. No paperwork.

[can't sit still]

Well, democracy in Europe has been disappearing rapidly. Between Maastrict, Lisbon and a few others, all the people with power are appointed,,, not elected. There is no point in throwing them out, because some other asshole will be appointed. The British too are learning that they don't have much representation;
http://www.eutruth.org.uk./

This is something that I didn't expect;
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... apped.html

[Trishntek]

I believe that most of the expense is in the bureaucracy. I was touring around Havana in a Coco;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vhmJRSg ... re=related
The girl who was my guide got something in her eye. We went to a hospital and walked in, She explained what happened. They cleaned out her eye and we left. No paperwork.

And how many lawyers in Cuba are waiting to scrutinize every undotted 'i' and uncrossed 't'?

[can't sit still]

Kinda interesting. "Currently, approximately 2,000 lawyers practice in some 250 bufetes throughout Cuba" "43% of all criminal cases were dismissed due to lack of evidence"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_profession_in_Cuba
Anyone who rides in a "coco" isn't worried about personal safety.

[Trishntek]

As one who works in operating rooms daily for the past 20 years, the OR nurse is now the documentarian of the room. If you want patient care, you must pry the nurse away from filling out forms either on a computer or paper or both.

The informational nightmare called "JCAHO" or Joint Commission of Associated Hospital Organizations is an inspecting body held in high regard by the insurance industry. Personally, they are another entity out to create PITA's to justify their own existence while making it nigh impossible to work efficiently.

[Trishntek]

As one who works in operating rooms daily for the past 20 years, the OR nurse is now the documentarian of the room. If you want patient care, you must pry the nurse away from filling out forms either on a computer or paper or both.

The informational nightmare called "JCAHO" or Joint Commission of Associated Hospital Organizations is an inspecting body held in high regard by the insurance industry. Personally, they are another entity out to create PITA's to justify their own existence while making it nigh impossible to work efficiently.

[ygmir]

that, is such a problem, and, systemic, IMHO........

so many things are so bogged down in paperwork........and "oversight"......

But, that's part of the whole "entitlement" game.....gov. provides, so, some bureaucrat and or bean counter, needs to account, and, justify their existence, so, lots of documentation........a viscous cycle.........

[littleflower]

actually, a lot of the paperwork and oversight are documentation in case lawyers get involved.

cuba is famous for their health care and education ..... but also poverty and lack of opportunity. i would suggest that we are slowly going the same way, except that health care and education are tanking here as well as opportunity.

[Ugly Dougly]

actually, a lot of the paperwork and oversight are documentation in case lawyers get involved.

cuba is famous for their health care and education ..... but also poverty and lack of opportunity. i would suggest that we are slowly going the same way, except that health care and education are tanking here as well as opportunity.

Maybe if it was legal to take a "medical vacation" there, they would have less poverty and our health care system wouldn't be so strained.

[Trishntek]

actually, a lot of the paperwork and oversight are documentation in case lawyers get involved.

cuba is famous for their health care and education ..... but also poverty and lack of opportunity. i would suggest that we are slowly going the same way, except that health care and education are tanking here as well as opportunity.

CYA is the mantra in healthcare these days. IMHO it has become the priority of the entire system.

[Trishntek]

So getting back to the future of our society,,, are our children being conditioned to sing praises of His Heinous?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_l8KK3gGxQ[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mvP0ArKIGY[/youtube]

[can't sit still]

This is a scream !! Voting in Russia;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzGt_E5S ... r_embedded

[Corwin]

Ever notice that stupid pledge of allegience they make kids say in school every day? Ya that scares me a little more than a bunch of black kids who are inspired by the first black president.

[ygmir]

how can the pledge of allegiance scare you?.......................
or, perhaps, I should ask "why"?

[Trishntek]

Ever notice that stupid pledge of allegience they make kids say in school every day? Ya that scares me a little more than a bunch of black kids who are inspired by the first black president.

And you would be okay if children were singing and chanting praises to Bush? "That" Pledge of Allegiance is a pesky thing isn't it? Patriotism and cherishing citizenship is so uncool! Now if our children learned how to:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHAFN6Vqil0[/youtube]

Then it would be easy to:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVDBtHeKIEM[/youtube]

Then we can all simply:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwkqjjffzEk[/youtube]

Koolaid anyone?

[gyre]

A "pledge of allegiance" is specifically anti-american.


Some idiot writes some throwaway tripe for a magazine article and next thing every child in the country is required to parrot it.

[ygmir]

how/why is it "anti-American"?

[gyre]

Loyalty oaths were one of the major traps in european politics.
And considered objectionable on all grounds.

By their very nature, they are not taken by choice.
And that was demonstrated over and over with the "pledge of allegiance".
It's very use demonstrates what is wrong with the idea.
And it is extremely insulting.

If someone tried to hire you and asked you to take an oath not to steal from them, would you even consider the job?

Loyalty doesn't need an oath.

Oaths are often a part of indoctrination though.
That fact wasn't missed when this country was founded either.

The original pledge
I pledge allegiance to my Flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Wikipedia
In 1940 the Supreme Court, in Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools could be compelled to swear the Pledge, even Jehovah's Witnesses like the defendants in that case who considered the flag salute to be idolatry. A rash of mob violence and intimidation against Jehovah's Witnesses followed the ruling. In 1943 the Supreme Court reversed its decision, ruling in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that "compulsory unification of opinion" violated the First Amendment.[6]

Students pledging to the flag with the Bellamy salute.

Swearing of the pledge is accompanied by a salute. An early version of the salute, adopted in 1892, was known as the Bellamy salute. It started with the hand outstretched toward the flag, palm down, and ended with the palm up. Because of the similarity between the Bellamy salute and the Nazi salute, developed later, President Franklin D. Roosevelt instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute. Removal of the Bellamy salute occurred on December 22, 1942, when Congress amended the Flag Code language first passed into law on June 22, 1942.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_ ... Allegiance
http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled2.htm

[ygmir]

I repeat:
how is that un-American?

you post lots of text, none of it addressing my question..........

and WTF does my question have to do with European political traps?............

[gyre]

It is a loyalty oath, and that was repugnant to this country when founded, and still is to many of us.

Children aren't even entitled to sign a magazine contract.
Requiring them to swear an oath should be repugnant to anyone thinking about it.

Everything about the way this country was formed and the form it took, relates to european politics of the previous and current time of our founding.
Many odd things are explained when you know why they happened.

The pledge wasn't written in a vacuum either.

From wiki
Francis Bellamy, the original writer of the pledge and a Christian Socialist, said that the purpose of it was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue.

I have to wonder if the civil war played into the particular phrasing of the pledge too?

[Trishntek]

It is a loyalty oath, and that was repugnant to this country when founded, and still is to many of us.

Children aren't even entitled to sign a magazine contract.
Requiring them to swear an oath should be repugnant to anyone thinking about it.

Everything about the way this country was formed and the form it took, relates to european politics of the previous and current time of our founding.
Many odd things are explained when you know why they happened.

The pledge wasn't written in a vacuum either.

From wiki
Francis Bellamy, the original writer of the pledge and a Christian Socialist, said that the purpose of it was to teach obedience to the state as a virtue.

I have to wonder if the civil war played into the particular phrasing of the pledge too?

Well gyre, you're startin' to make sense on this one. Gotta admit that scares me a bit, but the words one nation and indivisible do trample on states rights I suppose. It also brings up the salutes and praises I demonstrated above. I would hope you are equally concerned about any demonstration of admiration and devotion to a political leader. What I believe to be the purpose of the "Pledge" and what it was designed to be seem to be two different things. Thanks for the lesson.

[ygmir]

hhhhmmmm..........that helps me understand what you're saying, thanks.

But, I don't see anything wrong with swearing loyalty to your nation..........not it's leaders, not it's government, but, the country. It seems that is what's asked there.

Is there a problem to being loyal to your country?
Again, not the government, or individual leaders, but, the concept and the "land"..............

[Trishntek]

hhhhmmmm..........that helps me understand what you're saying, thanks.

But, I don't see anything wrong with swearing loyalty to your nation..........not it's leaders, not it's government, but, the country. It seems that is what's asked there.

Is there a problem to being loyal to your country?
Again, not the government, or individual leaders, but, the concept and the "land"..............

You make a great point there YG. But then, are school children subjected to the oath to tell the truth in a court of law? I can see both sides here and it will take some thought to sort this one out in my mind.

An oath to country or truth in my mind is completely different than an oath to an individual or gubmint. I always thought the Pledge was expressing allegiance to founding principals. DAMMIT!

[knowmad]

The pledge is wrong because of childrens age. No consent means they should not be coerced, or used as Ammo in a one-upmanish game played by adults. Also If they could object we would fail to understand their reasoning, most would stare shyly at the ground and try to be somewhere else. I's creepy what some adults see as acceptable and right for children. But then again some people are Creeps.