Moderation discussion

[Sail Man]

I think photon torpedoes may be required on tribe. Wide Spread.

[ygmir]

good choice, but, I might also suggest an anti matter device, as used to destroy "the doomsday machine"..........

[spectabillis]

its not all that surprising when you consider that its equal to the general tradgedy of tribe. the ad-hoc informal social leadership and contributions of its members can only provide so much quality above and beyond the social network it represents.

they really havent even started to scratch the surface of mistakes, and yet its already a meltdown. thats a seriously poor social framework to make any attempts towards anything.

its sad really, but i dont feel much more remorse than pointing out the general decline of the entire burningman community. you can stand on top of the biggest funded art project with a bullhorn and it wouldnt matter, best to just simply point out 'i told you so' while moving on.

[Toolmaker]

dont know because i am no longer active on tribe, but aparantly the bman tribe had a recent moderator meltdown.

moistpup: remember him here?

let people read the history of moderation implementation here for lessons learned. everything is open, most everything is documented. compare that with what happens when the wrong people and the wrong policies get implemented.

moistpup: moderator? well, ignorance truely is universal on the internet.

Who could forget.. just when we start to forget tribe goes down and he comes over here to troll.

I still say make Badger a mod IF we need another. Things run smooth here and there is very little animosity.. we all tend to help each other out here with the occasional bad hair day.

We have the best mods on the internet IMO. I have never really dug tribe, something abnout all the crap people are trying to sell and all that I'm burnier than you and you are not cool enough to be in our clique stuff.

So whatcha been up to Spec? We don't see you around here to much since you jumped ship with those Apok ppl. We miss you and Sue et al.

[Kinetik V]

Re: A Word From The New BM Tribe Moderator (and a new TOU)
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 12:00 AM
Power corrupts....and while I'm hopeful you won't have the same fate as some of the eplaya moderators, the stuff I read in your first post gave me chills. It also made me think that this might not have been a good idea...ie: be careful what you wish for because you just might get it? At least you posted the link to burnfree.

Just remember...the same people that lifted you to power can be the very same people that take you out of it. And very quickly too. Give things a little time to percolate...you'll be tested. We'll see if you're found wanting...

Anyway, good luck...you'll need it. Back to lurking....

Just saying that I called it...

[spectabillis]

not up to much of anything visably productive i'm afraid.

recieved a reply from markllar and have to say i was impressed by what he wrote me. seems to be sincerely concerned with things, and only wants to put in temp work to see things get started... after which he wants do drop an active involvement. thats an attitude to keep from falling into the social (and purely superficial) trap of esteem and standing, that usually progresses into a will to power.

i really hope the best for them, and offered my advise if they think its valuable. think i will continue to watch and add to my social networking research.

[AntiM]

Bump. Well, most of it, and the initial discussions are invaluable. As a moderator, I need to revisit this thread more often, lest I forget and stumble once again.

What a ride, what a ride.

So, newbs, see what you've been missing?

[spectabillis]

wow

im a bit freaked right now, but thanks for those two bumps

[geekster]

Freaked? Did something major happen?

[mdmf007]

Hmmm - I thought I was a pretty liberal Mod. Power? i dump ads for penis enlargements and mortgages mostly. I dump the gratuitous slander as well.

oh well, as long as he doesnt post you know where I am cool

Re: A Word From The New BM Tribe Moderator (and a new TOU)
Mon, November 17, 2008 - 12:00 AM
Power corrupts....and while I'm hopeful you won't have the same fate as some of the eplaya moderators, the stuff I read in your first post gave me chills. It also made me think that this might not have been a good idea...ie: be careful what you wish for because you just might get it? At least you posted the link to burnfree.

Just remember...the same people that lifted you to power can be the very same people that take you out of it. And very quickly too. Give things a little time to percolate...you'll be tested. We'll see if you're found wanting...

Anyway, good luck...you'll need it. Back to lurking....

Just saying that I called it...

[AntiM]

Apparently we're not supposed to dump the gratuitous slander, just the slander with personal info.

Yeah spec, why freaked? That you're remembered? Or forgotten?

[spectabillis]

sorry, can give you a better answer once my brain figures it out. not a good or bad thing, it just shook me a bit because i forgot what many of those original motivations were. i still believe in having a solid set of ideals when going into it, but i think many mods are a very different person coming out.

[BadData]

Hey, if you guys are interested in moderation techniques, I suggest you check out the forums at http://forums.somethingawful.coml... in my opintion they are moderated really well.

I think it's important not to delete offending posts, but leave them as is, and note that a user was banned or probated for that post... that way others on the forum can quickly get a good idea of what is unacceptable behavior and be discouraged from emulating it.

I appreciate all your efforts to make eplaya a more pleasant and functional forum, and wish you the best success.

[spectabillis]

sa might not be a good example, especially considering their history both pre and post chan.

[AntiM]

We tend to keep the moderation low key here, a lot of it is done privately. Sometimes a private word will be enough for a person to choose whether or not they wish to continue participation on eplaya, or if they would prefer to take it elsewhere, or modify their approach to the board.

Posts don't get pulled often, the problem being if they're offensive enough to get someone booted, they're offensive enough to warrant deletion.

[mdmf007]

Hey, if you guys are interested in moderation techniques, I suggest you check out the forums at http://forums.somethingawful.coml... in my opintion they are moderated really well.

I think it's important not to delete offending posts, but leave them as is, and note that a user was banned or probated for that post... that way others on the forum can quickly get a good idea of what is unacceptable behavior and be discouraged from emulating it.

I appreciate all your efforts to make eplaya a more pleasant and functional forum, and wish you the best success.

Oh I leave TONS of stuff that offends me, offending me is your right. I also have the right to stop reading, and move on at anytime. I can guarantee you will not find a bigger free speech advocate than me - in any form.

[spectabillis]

Bump. Well, most of it, and the initial discussions are invaluable.

not really. the most striking thing now is how little it resembles to what moderators do anymore. thats sad, because it should have been what was intended to serve the board community. its a bad realization that there cant be something close to a board community that compares, and that members here should continue to leave in disgust and form new ones elsewhere.

guess people here should have been as critical of moderators as they are the org, because very little matters to what they think and want anymore.

viewtopic.php?t=34669

that list was intended as a short overview, right? because i didnt write anything like that and set it as policy, and i know technopatra never did. so where did you get that, and why did you state something that was never openly vetted by the community?

[spectabillis]

new consideration open to community discussion


how about a training and probationary period for new moderators? a time period where they watch and learn before being placed into the role?

then thier initial performance is kept track of, where any problems or lack of proper performance is corrected before they are permanently assigned to the role?

it would solve some problems that have crept into the mod system, pretty serious ones that im nervous to mention publically because the social outcry can be... huge. that bad.

[Kinetik V]

Probationary period? Puhleeze.

Oh dear me, you might offend someone. We're going to pussy foot around for awhile until you know who to schmooze and who you gotta treat with kid gloves and ......ENOUGH!

STFU, dive in, kick ass, if you overstep we'll tell ya, if you really overstep we'll post about it in a thread in your honor, and if you totally screw it up so bad we can't take it anymore we'll push to get you or anyone else yanked, and that's the end of it. This is a community and community polices itself. And this ain't the same community that was here the last time around and the people needed to police you are already mods...and can do the job just fine.

So what was it you were waiting for again? Do you need a hallpass or permission slip or something? HAVE YOU EVEN FUCKING APPLIED OR MADE IT CLEAR you want to be a mod again? Get on it!

[AntiM]

Bump. Well, most of it, and the initial discussions are invaluable.

not really. the most striking thing now is how little it resembles to what moderators do anymore. thats sad, because it should have been what was intended to serve the board community. its a bad realization that there cant be something close to a board community that compares, and that members here should continue to leave in disgust and form new ones elsewhere.

guess people here should have been as critical of moderators as they are the org, because very little matters to what they think and want anymore.

viewtopic.php?t=34669

that list was intended as a short overview, right? because i didnt write anything like that and set it as policy, and i know technopatra never did. so where did you get that, and why did you state something that was never openly vetted by the community?

It isn't policy, it is how I understand our current role as mods, and an explanation to the newer users what our reach is. I didn't realize the role of moderators was written as scripture, because I've never been handed a Bible of Eplaya according to Technopatra. And is not my thread an invitation to involve the community in how eplaya goes and grows? Which community? Then or now? There is a difference, anyone who's been here for any length of time can see it.

Eplaya evolves as the community evolves. Right now I am part of that process and doing my best to serve. Someday I won't be a mod. Personally, I don't expect eplaya to stay the same, it is much like a stream, both ever-changing and ever constant.

[spectabillis]

i agree with much of that including the flexible nature, but that also doesnt mean we rewrite the rules to fit ourselves and what we want it to be.

i know thats never what you intend either, its just a cautious thing right now to start first from those things that were originally established for good reasons, and that we dont loose those - they cost too much to gain in the first place.



and these preachy comments are a bit more for everyone else than you antiM, so please dont take that one personally. but there needs a bit more reestablishment of basic principals where people can be reminded whats being done and why by moderators. i realized that hasnt been done by someone for a long time in feedback... well, except by you and you're the only one bumping things.

[AntiM]

You must understand that as the most active mod, I take these things personally. Even if they aren't aimed at me, I feel them.

A discussion of our perceptions of what has been lost and what has been gained may be if use.

For example: I think we have gained some measure of usefulness in the information based forums (mostly Q&A, Share Resources, and to a lesser extent, tickets and the annual forums). My request for answer first, then proceed to snark is merely that, a request. I threw it out there as an idea, and the rest of eplaya took off with it. I'd not call it a rule or a policy, not even a guideline, just an idea which enables hapless beginners to find their feet before the majesty of eplaya sweeps them away.

[Bay Bridge Sue]

I want to weigh in here for a sec...

We have a damn dedicated and hrdworking team. For someone who is an outsider to come in and tell us we should be replaced, etc... sorry, not your call.

One thing they Should do is pull mod privileges from those who aren't mods...

We all pull our weight as best we can - ask the board member in charge of this. If she or larry or marian or one of the bord were dissatisfied I have NO doubt they would have NO qualms about change us out. But the only dissatisfaction about our jo is coming from someone who not only is a long-ago ex-moderator, but someone who claims in his profile that he is NOT a moderator...

Sure, you're pissed. But asking for help by disrespecting and slamming those who can help, well, how many people who treated you like shit would you be willing to help out? We keep asking, you keep slamming instead of telling us what the hell is going on.

So, why not just make it simple and tell what's going on, instead of this long drawn out song and dance? And please, unless somehoe you are now an LLC board member, which if you're talking about legal action against them prolly puts them out of that realm of possibility...

Like I said on the closed side, I'm done with the gamey song and dance - the only thing it does is waste time that could spent doing otiher things, like moderating.

Susanne, bb, mod at lg, eplaya et al.

[spectabillis]

then let me lay it down for you sue. im obviously not an outsider and just because you dont like me standing up to you and what you do doesnt give any validity to what you are saying.

im NOT making a call to replace people, im calling for the org to step up to their responsibility and do something themselves when they hear me out. they will get actively involved, which they have not done for years, and likely make a different decisions on what to do. even though im going to make recommendations REPLACING MODS IS UP TO THEM AND NOT UP TO ME.

since ive told you that already, get it right rather than contributing to escalating things yourself. you are more worried about protecting your ass and position than what everyone does here - you are not more important than everyone else.

[AntiM]

What I am not seeing is a concrete explanation of your perception of the problem. Perhaps you are reserving that for the ORG and do not care to share. Currently there are no wars and attacks going (the historical snarling is ... historic and will not change), no one is being banned, the board is being kept tidy, commerce is dealt with, we get responses from actiongrl when we need it, there's upgrades on the horizon.

This frustrates me, I can work with concrete concepts, I cannot work with this broad unidentified discontent. However, I am beginning to feel it has little to do with what's happening on the mod level.

I have no doubt hard work went into this board. I have no doubt hard work is still going into the board on several levels. I have no doubt you feel passionate and deeply invested in the board. I just can't figure out what specifically brought you forward at this time. Frustrating, as I cannot address hints and non-specific complaints. And frustrating as I'm not even sure if I am the one who needs to be doing anything other than what I'm doing.

I do wish you well, spec, and admire that you care so much, I simply can't get a handle on your position.

[spectabillis]

clarify for everyone else: im not going after any moderators position, sue or anyones.

but i gave all the moderators fair warning that one of the recomendations im giving to the org is bringing in fresh blood, because unfortunately its often easier than reversing things that become precedence - and i dont like where moderators have led themselves.

few example problems:

- attitude: some believe they know better than the total accumulation of lessons learned here by moderators, and will say and act independantly without proper concern for you or others.

- others think they no longer have to go through community feedback for the things we promised we would always do

- mods added thinking they would learn the ropes while helping in anohter capacity, but they dont then are in the position anyways

- most mods dont know the history of why you just dont do some things, important things like arbitrarily deleting entire topics the org automatically doesnt agree with


these are examples only, and provided simply because i dont want the wrong impression being made.

[AntiM]

Thank you.

I must admit, I do delete short topics in Share Resources concerning year specific sales and rideshares right around ticket time. If it has morphed into a useful discussion, then I leave it alone.

But is every post and thread (other than outright spam) sacrosanct? I know "stand by your words" is a mantra of mine, and I did blunder with that a while back.

I have no problem moving threads to better forums. That seems a reasonable thing to do as I leave a shadow topic.

The ticket forum was such a mess, I did try merging a select few duplicate topics. Nothing deleted, and while it cannot be undone, it certainly could be reviewed as to whether or not it is an effective tool to keep the forum from becoming unwieldy.

[spectabillis]

oh no no no i dont think i've ever had a problem with any of your deletions antiM, i dont think many people ever have for good reasons because you dont just do things like that arbitrarily.


you put thought and concern into it, knowing that people can blow up if its something personal that you just deleted and you learned those things the hard way. i mean i follow enough to see when that still happens over some people, especially vague policies like commerce and spam. but you always seem to have that level and fair approach with consistency that builds what i called street cred. that fills in gaps where the direct and proper proceedure isnt known, you can figure it out well enough and people trust you over it without constantly asking for feedback over every detail.

you have sincerely done the best job of any mod in the history of this board over that, and many other things too. i just wish there was a better way to record these lessons you learned, or hell... even why your approach works and how to teach it to other mods because it's never worked well teaching them by example unless they have the same attitude, perceptions, and skills you do.

because thats something i just couldnt get a good grasp on creating, i dont have experience writing edu material and there isnt a training program for mods. i will repeat that one partner did mention to me once having mods go through the brc ranger training process - mostly to deal with conflicts. i really should have taken them up on it at the time - i just rather naievely thought it sounded ridiculous. i dont anymore.

[AntiM]

The ranger training would be somewhat effective, but certainly not the answer. A lot of what they do, I learned something similar in the military. Conflict resolution online has too much lag time to be truly effective.

I do have a background in education (yes, a real, but expired, teaching certificate) and a piece of one of my degrees is in technical writing. But writing it up? Teaching it? Yikes. Just yikes. I've written a fair share of SOP in the Navy and I'm not thrilled with the idea of applying that here. Like teaching cats to read...

[Kinetik V]

For my two boards my moderators have a wiki that they add to as needed and it's worked well. I thought the BRC extranet...or whatever it's called...it's been so damn long since I used it, anyway I thought they had tools in there to help with creating wikis, knowledge repositories or the like for documentation. If they had Sharepoint that would be the way to go but as hodge-podge as the LLC's tech structure seems to be who knows if that's anything more than a pipe dream.

At first I laughed off the idea of a wiki...but once it got up and running it's now indispensable. I keep my rogues list on it, case studies, and tons of stuff and it's easy for all of the mods to get to as needed, easily searchable, and also kept cleaned up so that it's fast. I've also got everything set up so we can view it on a crackberry or Android smartphone too.

Long story short...some kind of documentation / collaboration effort might be a good thing for the mods here...I hope it gets considered behind the scenes by whomever is making the decisions these days.

As for conflict mediation...and the idea of Ranger training we've had Rangers on here and with one personal exception they've been good at handling online conflict. That does sound like a great idea. Maybe not a full training...but at least the conflict management parts. Perhaps the people behind Sanctuary who deal with from what I've heard some very unstable individuals in altered states could also be tapped for some knowledge training. Again just tossing out thoughts here....I have no horse in this race, all I'm after is to see that the eplaya exists as long as Burning Man does. If there's an event...then it needs it's online counterpart. And this is that counterpart.