http://www.stopburningman.org/

[allanon2]

we have posted pics as asked giving evidence to what we say
I have offerd myself to help answer any questions
are people open or closed minded?

prove you can listen to both sides and make judgments yourself.
ttyl
allanon
http://www.stopburningman.org/

[Chimp]

Hey Hey Hey!!!! The spelling has improved!!!

Gold Star.

Hey Allanon2, now you are up to speed on the spelling why don't you think of something else to say, the playa is in the middle of a fucking DESERT for fucks sake. Or perhaps you'd like to explain to me again how a man in what to all intents and purposes looks like a pond damages the delicate balance and harmony of the universe.

If you are so concerned about the environment perhaps you should get on a save the rainforests site or something of that ilk - there are far bigger fish to fry ecologically pal, why waste your time on this beautiful circus of drugged up artists, miscreants and general freaks

Please now fuck off and stop boring the tits off everyone

kisses

Chimp XxxX

[allanon2]

Hey Hey Hey!!!! The spelling has improved!!!

Gold Star.

Hey Allanon2, now you are up to speed on the spelling why don't you think of something else to say, the playa is in the middle of a fucking DESERT for fucks sake. Or perhaps you'd like to explain to me again how a man in what to all intents and purposes looks like a pond damages the delicate balance and harmony of the universe.

If you are so concerned about the environment perhaps you should get on a save the rainforests site or something of that ilk - there are far bigger fish to fry ecologically pal, why waste your time on this beautiful circus of drugged up artists, miscreants and general freaks

Please now fuck off and stop boring the tits off everyone

kisses

Chimp XxxX

so if this website is about burning man then this is the place to dicuss what happens to the black rock region
the location of burning man

what other place is this more imprtant to discuss than here?

sigh

[aforceforgood]

Cut and pasted from your site;

This one is a favorite. An ART CAR OUTSIDE THE
EVENT!! All the rules say that's a no-no. Did BM or the participant face
sanctions? Of COURSE not. The rules don't apply to these people. Taken the day after the burn, 2002.

Cites? I looked, and wasn't able to find any restrictions on art cars being driven outside BM.

For that matter, how do you think those cars get to BM? Or home afterward? Or maybe you're proposing we build them there, and leave them there until next year? I'm confused by your lack of clarity here...

And Rob's point (in another thread) is valid in that you're trying to dig up every little thing against BM that you can, which tends to show a bias on your part, which tends to invalidate all of what you have to say.

For instance, your points that the desert would never be contaminated with motor oil, tranny fluid, etc., if not for BM, are valid and have been discussed by BM people too. And you might have a point re; water tables being lowered due to BM. Or the local farming might be more to blame for that. I don't have the numbers on that.

The thing is, for how HUGE BM has gotten, I'd look at the positive side of it, i.e., the AMOUNT of impact it has on the area in relation to how many people attend. In that respect, it's a shining example to the rest of the world how things COULD be done better and with less impact on the environment.

MY point, (and Rob's) is that when you focus on stupid unsupportable arguments, you hurt your own progress on the valid ones.

And your name, just as an aside, seems to suggest that this energy you're spending on this issue might be more profitably spent improving your own life... I'm sure you will take that as a slam, but it's meant as a from a friend.

[allanon2]

the permit says no arts cars outside the evnt
it says BMORG will be fined if the permit is not followed yet they are never fined. they even say the permit can be lost if not followed.

and enviromental assesment also says the same thing

In additional the permit says that all motor vehicles will follow all rules of the road at the event unless in a special event during the event. art cars if not road worthy cant be driven to the evnt plus they still have to have break lights and headlights etc...
read the permit and you will see

look harder

Cut and pasted from your site;

This one is a favorite. An ART CAR OUTSIDE THE
EVENT!! All the rules say that's a no-no. Did BM or the participant face
sanctions? Of COURSE not. The rules don't apply to these people. Taken the day after the burn, 2002.

Cites? I looked, and wasn't able to find any restrictions on art cars being driven outside BM.

For that matter, how do you think those cars get to BM? Or home afterward? Or maybe you're proposing we build them there, and leave them there until next year? I'm confused by your lack of clarity here...

And Rob's point (in another thread) is valid in that you're trying to dig up every little thing against BM that you can, which tends to show a bias on your part, which tends to invalidate all of what you have to say.

For instance, your points that the desert would never be contaminated with motor oil, tranny fluid, etc., if not for BM, are valid and have been discussed by BM people too. And you might have a point re; water tables being lowered due to BM. Or the local farming might be more to blame for that. I don't have the numbers on that.

The thing is, for how HUGE BM has gotten, I'd look at the positive side of it, i.e., the AMOUNT of impact it has on the area in relation to how many people attend. In that respect, it's a shining example to the rest of the world how things COULD be done better and with less impact on the environment.

MY point, (and Rob's) is that when you focus on stupid unsupportable arguments, you hurt your own progress on the valid ones.

And your name, just as an aside, seems to suggest that this energy you're spending on this issue might be more profitably spent improving your own life... I'm sure you will take that as a slam, but it's meant as a from a friend.

[aforceforgood]

Well, looking at the picture YOU posted, it sure looks like the art car in question has brake lights, and seems to be unmodified aside from the mast mounted to it, so what's the problem?

You yourself said it was outside of BM the day after the burn, so maybe they were going home.

Look, you're shooting yourself in the foot here by acting as if we're your enemy. If you have links (please note I have bolded links to try and communicate to you that just posting numbers you may or may not have pulled directly from your ass, in other words that we can't verify independently is NOT good enough) to some FACTS about water table depletion that CLEARLY SHOW BM is the cause rather than local farming, then post them. We don't want to tear up the land any more than you do. If you post FACTS instead of focusing on these stupid petty details, I guarantee you people will listen and receive your comments positively, whereas this attack has gained you nothing but negative attention. Maybe you thrive on that. I don't know. I do know I won't reply to any more independently (from sources other than you, if you need it spelled out for you) unsupported claims you make.

[stopbmorg]

because 99% of the information you want is there.

http://www.burningman.org

As for the permit stipulations, the 2003 event list is right here:

http://www.nv.blm.gov/Winnemucca/recrea ... _Stips.pdf

Just look at it. It's a quick download. I would direct your attention to the following line items:

#16 (spring visiting discouragement required, but it's never done)
#25 We were on the playa daily, AM and PM, within the legal limit from
the trash fence. There were, at times, serious gaps (hours) in the
"24 hour patrol"
#28 Just go out there and look around. Plenty of evidence of camping in
the form of tent/gutter stakes, rebar stakes, tie-downs, etc.
#58 See the text of Roger Farschon's memo at www.stopburningman.org
and compare it with the transect size in #58. Internally BLM
is either not using their own stipulated standard, or the person
writing the document doesn't know what is supposed to be going on.

Those are the big ones for 2003.

In terms of "local farming", please bear in mind that food production and agriculture are at least a reasonable use of the limited water resources. Comapre that to the tens of thousands of gallons sucked from the Frog Farm complex for the event which just ends up on the playa surface, simply to keep dust down (and on that playa, we all know that can be like railing against a gale). There is a legitimate complaint right there, for one.

Here is another one to consider -- how many pounds of VOC(volatile organic compounds) do you think those diesel pullers spew in the treks back and forth to load and then disgorge water? And do you think each of them is 100% oil and fuel-leak free? Just a cursory glance at them with a trained eye shows otherwise.

We don't want the land torn up, and neither do you. Agreed. We're doing out best to present independent evidence. But even when doing so, people meet it with doubt and rage. What level of proof is it going to take to convince people that what we've got to show you is genuine, real and not fabricated?

[foamin' at the mouth]

Sirs,

If your intent is, as you say, to edify us as to our evil ways you have used a rather heavy handed technique. ( are you channeling Calvin or Martin Luther?) At the risk of being a tedious read to my fellow readers here I will state the obvious. Aplogogies if this has been explicated better somewhere else as you have started so many threads I cant follow them all.

1. your URL states a message that articulates an intent to stop the event itself, not improve the policies of cleanup or refine the techniques of how this is done. This makes your intentions suspect.

2.you post anonymously. Most environmental organizations-even the revolutionary ones like earth first! had very visible non anonymous activists who represent their point of view. In some cases they lost their lives because of this. I weigh your intentions against how those organisations treat the communities they are addressing (usually repectfully) and issue claims and how those organizations would produce evidence for those claims.

3. I believe there is a gypsum plant in Empire. I'm curious as to the effect of this on the environment and wonder why you are going after an event that attempts to to teach some first principals in terms of environmental awareness and yet say nothing of other environemntal impacts. Dont big diesel trucks get used in the transportation to and from that plant. Why arent you picking on the bigger monsters around first?

4. It is not clear to me that you live in that area. You have stated that it is an important place to you but you offer no honest context in the threads that I have read-with which to consider your point of view as anything but anti burningman troll. Have you been visiting every month for twenty years?? What? Who in that community is helping you with the efforts?

5.You said you sent the info to event organizers and recieved no response (I don't remember which thread that was on) You did not, like earth first or some other environemntal org would do, inform us as to your protocol, the date or time of when you did so or what your subsequent follow up efforts were to receive a response. For all I know, you sent it to them 15 minutes before you posted one of many threads here.

6.It is not clear to me that you attend or participate in the event in any way. Psychologically speaking.-Just in case you didn't learn a fundamental thing when you were growing up- its one thing for me to call family dysfunctional and suggest therapy but very much another thing for you to say this-not being a member of the community. This comes off "I know better than you -as paternalism and smacks of the tactics of someone channeling administrators in the British Raj or a developer trying to stir up trouble so the BLM will get tired of it end the event and lease the land to someone who wants to do something else with it.

I dont trust your motives. I do not believe they are about preserving the environemnt. You are pissed off about something else. Maybe you had a suggestion that was ignored by the organization and now you feel slighted. It's too bad that happened. but human beings are imperfect. Why dont you try again in a reasonable -non-paternalistic way and sign you names. also I suggest you provide them with some context for your motivations.

[aforceforgood]

Ok, I see you're just going to keep spouting the same thing despite my pointing out that you need some independent corroboration for your charges.

I won't respond to you after this until you post something worth responding to.

I'd recommend a boycott of you and all your sock puppet's threads to anyone who reads this unless they like seeing multiple threads of this nature polluting the eplaya.

[Zona]

I have heard that the best air cleaners in LA are human lungs.....I plan on doing my share of cleaning next year on the playa.

[dman]

You have stated on another thread that your real identity is:

150 evergreen
boulder creek, ca

rex scates


So, I did a quick search on your name and turned up this site:

http://www.baneon.org/members/scates/rex.html

Is this you? Your car? Your visit to Black Rock Desert?

How about this site:


http://www.baneon.org/photos.html

That set of photos from August, 1997 look interesting, especially pic6. Is that you/your car?

If that is you, do you and your associates still like to visit the Black Rock Desert with your vehicles (probably different ones now) and enjoy it as depicted in these photos? If so, do you like to go in August, when the bulk of site preparations for Burning Man and/or the actual event are taking place?

Let me please be clear that this is not an attack on you nor a judgement about the appropriateness of the behavior depicted in the photos. Just a few queries to help clarify for myself and others how it is that you enjoy the Black Rock Desert and how that might be conflicting with its use by others, including the BMORG and the Burning Man event.

[technopatra]

It is also interesting to note that on the site with the car pic in the desert, comments are credited to "Rodney Sparks" - another user who showed up on the eplaya in the past couple days supporting the crossposted threads.

Interesting coincidence of location, message, alliteration, and association.

But just a coincidence, I am sure.

[bgirl]

.....................Neon-Man??????????????

[foamin' at the mouth]

Dman, thanks for doing the homework. I found this picture and its accompanying caption so, well, illuminating in terms of this so called environmental orgs concern for the environemnt. Note the tire marks. Wasnt one of them expressing concern somewhere about the small organisms and ecosystem disturbance-on the playa itself?



Caption to picture:
- This may look like dirt , but this is the Black Rock Desert Dry Lake Bed. This is probably the best place to go and run at WOT for hours on end(or until you run the tank dry). Very few things to hit, except for when everyone crowds together (not fun).

[Tancorix]

I think somebody still hasn't updated their whois info for the domain registration which puts them in violation of the domain registrar and ICANN's agreements that they signed off on when the domain was created.

The bottom line... if that whois info is not showing a change by midnight tonight, as a private citizen who is acting on his own and with no ties to the ORG, the boards or anybody else, I'm going to invoke parts of those agreements and ask that the domain itself be shut down, and possibly have the domain itself forfeited. The ability for me to do this is clearly spelled out in the web hosting and domain registration agreements on dotster.com and at ICANN.org in their uniform domain dispute procedures section. I intend to exercise those rights to the maximum extent possible.

All I asked for was honesty. I have yet to see it. So instead of blowing smoke or ranting and raving, I'm going to take action as I said before I was going to do. A little after midnight I will have 4 people, in Hong Kong, Iceland, Budapest, and here in the US check the whois info. If it shows the same, I'm moving ahead with my promise to act. The other locations are to cover for anomalies in the internet that might prevent me from seeing the latest info. It's been almost 72 hours...and I was told it would be updated. We'll see.

[allanon2]

150 evergreen ln
boulder creek, ca 95006

I do beleive that it was done on friday and wastoldit would take a couple of days to show up.
but the above isthe contact info

I think somebody still hasn't updated their whois info for the domain registration which puts them in violation of the domain registrar and ICANN's agreements that they signed off on when the domain was created.

The bottom line... if that whois info is not showing a change by midnight tonight, as a private citizen who is acting on his own and with no ties to the ORG, the boards or anybody else, I'm going to invoke parts of those agreements and ask that the domain itself be shut down, and possibly have the domain itself forfeited. The ability for me to do this is clearly spelled out in the web hosting and domain registration agreements on dotster.com and at ICANN.org in their uniform domain dispute procedures section. I intend to exercise those rights to the maximum extent possible.

All I asked for was honesty. I have yet to see it. So instead of blowing smoke or ranting and raving, I'm going to take action as I said before I was going to do. A little after midnight I will have 4 people, in Hong Kong, Iceland, Budapest, and here in the US check the whois info. If it shows the same, I'm moving ahead with my promise to act. The other locations are to cover for anomalies in the internet that might prevent me from seeing the latest info. It's been almost 72 hours...and I was told it would be updated. We'll see.

[nipples]

Two things, from dad to me ten years ago:

Row your own boat

Hoe your own field

[Rob the Wop]

Two things, from dad to me ten years ago:

Row your own boat

Hoe your own field

Dammit, that whole dyslexia thing got me again.

I thought my dad said,

Row your own ho

Field your own boat

Now what the fuck am I going to do with a dead prositute and some wooden oars?

As a side note- the tomatoes in my canoe are getting along very nicely.

[KellY]

To all the stopburningman people, sock puppets, and/or multiple personalities:

The insane number of threads this whole discussion is happening on seems both detrimental to the board and the topic itself, with all the cross-postings, redundant questions, etc. If you are actually concerned about the environmental impact of the event and not just trying to fuck with our community, please pick one thread to carry on the discussion, or start a single new one, and let's proceed from there. Any post aside from saying "Let's go to this thread" will look suspiciously troll-like, I am thinking.

To everyone else on the board, I respectfully ask that you don't post on any more of these threads until a single one is chosen. I'm sorry about the multiple cross postings and if this seems high-handed. I suppose I could have asked the moderators to intervene, but you know...radical self-reliance and all that.

[allanon2]

viewtopic.php?t=2771&highlight=

[aforceforgood]

Ah, let him cross and multiple post all he wants- it's an easy way to determine what he's really all about- annoying people into paying attention to him, just like the simpson's kids nagging "are we there yetare we there yetare we there yet" a zillion fucking times until they get their way.

When you don't have a good argument, you don't argue the facts, you attack weaknesses, harang and harass and shout down your opponent. Sounds like alanon has read "protesting for dummies".

Or like that great sage Hank Hill said; "Ah'm in favor of body piercings- and the more visible the better. That way, you can tell right off a person ain't right."

[respecttheplanet]

http://www.stopburningman.org/images/whois.jpg


The whois information has been updated - it was updated several days ago and shows the correct information.
Not our fault that Dotster is slow.

Now, you can drop the "ooOOOoo the WHOIS is wrong!" information.

Actually, everything but the "Owner" was already showing accurate information..

So, you can let that one go now. Thanks!

[respecttheplanet]

When you don't have a good argument, you don't argue the facts, you attack weaknesses, harang and harass and shout down your opponent. Sounds like alanon has read "protesting for dummies".

You guys have done a great job of that - shouting down those that oppose what the BMORG has done.

We have a very good arguement. Even some in your ranks have admitted it and agreed with our proposal.

And for the millionth time - this is NOT "one person behind 'sock puppets'" - geez.

[BlueBirdPoof]

Dman, thanks for doing the homework. I found this picture and its accompanying caption so, well, illuminating in terms of this so called environmental orgs concern for the environemnt. Note the tire marks. Wasnt one of them expressing concern somewhere about the small organisms and ecosystem disturbance-on the playa itself?

Foamin'--
I haven't noticed any of them worrying about the indigineous crustacea. But after spending three days away from them, I aint gonna wade through all their posts again to confirm that. Or even read the new ones. They were worried about the ruts, however. (Because they might have to slow down for that or break their precious neons?) And they said there was an ecosystem on playa, but focused on the frog pond instead, which confused me.
When can we start making fun of them for not being able to get girlfriends without paying?
There is a possibility that you remember my posting about the "playa monkeys" in the thread that Para started (in the Newbie info Forum) about her health concerns. (Yup, drift.)

BTW--some of the ruts on the playa are about 150 years old--dating back to Oregon trail days. There's also supposed to be graffiti of that time as well. (More drift.)

[Rob the Wop]

When can we start making fun of them

Done.

[Zane5100]

...so, is someone going to bring up that the Black Rock Desert was once used as a dump (as told to me by a resident of Gerlach)?

[bearsnest]

I’m shocked that anyone would make a claim on environmental grounds against burning man and its people. BLM has been praised for it’s (No impact) of the land at Black Rock.

If you want to see destruction of the desert look what the us government is doing in its training grounds by dropping bombs and testing ever nasty know chemical weapon in the deserts.

Look what McCarthy left behind when he was training there. As a person who visits and hangs in various deserts during the winters, the thought that one area that provides refuge and artistic expression in a world full of dead emotions can have an ecological impact is stupid and the writer of those words is stupid.

Get real and wake up from your blind dream and see the good that comes from this gathering. The Genesis effect of creativity all over the world.

Crawl back in your hole and leave us alone.

If you want to go after someone who has rapped of the environment look at George Bush and stop the silly, stupid ramblings about a few damn tire tracks fucking up the planet.

The exhaust from you car you drive everyday does a million times more damage.

You piss me off and that isn't easy.

Bear, environmentalist, recycler of all my garbage, writer of environmental music, giver of all proceeds from the sell of his music to, Heifer International, donator to the Nature Conservancy, and save the redwood foundation, donator to World Vision to feed the starving in the world.

What are you doing to help mother Earth except attacking the brightest and gifted who live here.

Go away, 4978634637863949867493`94729372 I deleted what I really wanted to say to you Bear:evil:

[Apollonaris Zeus]

to look at those fucking little neon cars tearing up the playa makes more then ever to close off the whole dam playa to everyone including me. I four wheel, but it pisses me off more then anything is when other off-roaders act like little fuck heads thinking they can drive in anyway they like. I respect off roaders to drive in many places, but I have more respect to the environment which supercedes off other rights except to walking.

The number of vehicles on the playa over the year has a much greater impact then the localized travel that occurs at the BM event.

I can argue that the routes that playa travelers use cause rutting. Rutting creates channeling. Channeling creates artificial water routes and high water flows. High water flows creates ditching which allows the seasonal waters to flow to the lowers end of the playa too fast without letting the water's edge to flow the sides of the playa which inturn inhibit the hydrological saturation needed to supply the vernal marshes that line the edges of the playa, but supply the necessary perminate marshes in the east & north center of the playa.

The pictures of these neons driving in the soft sluff sections of the playa should is one of the area's where you need to follow the established routes. But, once on the harder surface of the playa, you need to make your own tracks instead of follow the rutted, hollowed, out-too-well established routes.

The sepentine dunes were always a feature of the playa created naturally at first, but though they were much less before motorized travel. BM has disturbed the playa allowing more soils to become wind blowned, but structual breaks have allowed the loose soils to create more dune formation. The DPW vigorously rakes out these dunes to make them more susceptual to the winds, but what eventually will take place is the lowering of the surface in the BM area creating what the well traveled routes have caused is an artificial ponding of the seasonal flooding. This is why the BM event has got to move to another location on the playa. Rotational sites will allow the deposition of materials to refill this wind and human caused erosion.

Someday all motorized and large scale activites will come to a stop in certains areas of the playa, but now all and this time can be delayed for many years to come if only we learn to adapt to the dynamics involved in creating and forming the Black Rock Desert.

A II Z

PS- please drive responsibly so I can continue to drive my 4x4. I use it as a tool to get closer to an area before I need to hike!

[Taniwha]

I too have been going to the playa for years (before BM ever went there in fact). The playa has changed over the years - the 'serpents' (those annoying dunes that will rip the bottom out of your truck if you hit them at 90mph) have got much worse down wind of the current BM site - it's got worse every year, I'm glad DPW are tring to nuke them. Please keep it up.

Long ago there used to be a group of them down the east side that were, IMHO, caused by the road that goes through the current BM location. When BM moved there a bunch appeared from the west side and they've kind of grown together since.

I believe they are definitely caused by the dust raised by all the extra people there. Moving BM around would probably be a good thing - getting everyone driving on the playa to get there would probably be bad.

But remember the playa is an ever changing environment - when I first went there there (80s) there was a drought on, it was very dry, we used to start to go in April, now we start in June, afterwards an almost permanent (year round) lake/mud puddle formed down the west side (north of the BM site) for a couple of years - it's gone now. You can't 'save' the playa from change - it changes all the time by itself - that's a part of what makes it such a wonderfull place - what we can do is take care that our impact is minimal and watch to make sure it's looked after - if we start to cause a depression where we're currently sited we should move (trust me being in a low patch during a good downpour is a disaster - imagine all those cars leaving at once and getting struck, digging ruts, getting towed - what a mess) - in the mean time keeping an eye on our environment and being open minded about our effect on the playa and just be prepared to find another site if necessary - there are lots of dry lake beds in NV.

There are some great things about all the extra people who go there - the playa is so much cleaner - for years I would bring a couple of garbage bags of other people's moop back with me, some of it 30+ years old, I've helped clean up really old cars, flatten mud houses people had made etc etc now days it's hard to find anything to pick up as we drive around. We certainly run into moop that's escaped the burn, but it's really pretty minor - I found way more left by one bozo with a flare gun last year than from BM

[Guest]

Couple of notes on The Great Divot

#1. The dust coming up from the BM site during windstorms is from the underlaying strata of the playa. It is darker and heavier than the what gets blown up from the rest of the playa. That does support the contention that the BM site is creating a depression. Raking it, as happens post BM, doesn't help the problem. Perhaps watering and rolling, but if you watered you could not roll. Which brings me t
#2.

digging ruts, getting towed - what a mess

In case of a substantial rain, tow rigs could not enter the playa, The vehicles there would remain until the playa dried. Vehicles could be removed by helicopter, as has happened. It is conceivable that in the event of onset of an early and heavy winter, thousands of vehicles could remain until June.. That would be entertaining.