frat boy go home

[blyslv]

CT is too popular with the participants to justify cancelling.

.
Dan

That might be the best reason yet to cancel it! Maybe it's gotten stale, and the wimmins need to come up with another way to celebrate their awesome goddessness n'stuff.

[blyslv]

[,... Would you think it prudent to hold the Million Man March on the backstreets of Harlem so that black men can be with their own kind, and not get their feelings hurt by the biggots that may shout a racial slur?

What bigots? I was there and spent several wonderful hours walking all over the Mall. I worked just a few blocks away. It was great, there was an amazing vibe in the air and I hope it happens again.

[Davoid]

As an alternative, the women could congregate out past the man and then ride around for a couple of hours out by the fence where they won't encounter much in the way of spectators or bad vibes. They can have a nice relaxing topless ride in the sun.

Seems this CT business is spreading to many threads...but anyway, I doubt moving the ride out to the emptiness would improve the situation. I'd guess the hardcore oglers would still follow, maybe worsening the proportion of them to onlookers of the non-creepy kind.

[can't sit still]

EDB, my scenarios were never meant to be suggestions. I'm not saying that CT is broken or needs to be fixed. I was trying to present a framework on which to overlay observations, reactions and alternative ideas that might clarify the positions and rationale of Dallas and Montana.
Dan

[Cabanasprings]

How about a compromise.

All the lovely ladies meet out at the man.

Those that wish to keep it private ride the fence line.

Those that wish to be seen can ride the usual route through the city. This would keep the fence route mostly free of spectators.

[Davoid]

sorry, the first half of my last reply was quoting CSS...

[montana wildhack]

i'll be by to give my 2 cups worth soon....

[can't sit still]

Hi Montana, good to see you. I'm sure that you see what i'm trying to show. If you examine the antithesis of an idea or position it often makes the original idea more clear. My 2 scenarios were only presented to draw out analysis of non-realistic alternatives.
Dan

[montana wildhack]

Montana and Dallas, if I propose a couple of hypothetical scenarios, would you be so kind as to weigh in with your opinions?
I'm not trying to provoke anything but rational discussion.

CT is too popular with the participants to justify cancelling.

As an alternative, the women could congregate out past the man and then ride around for a couple of hours out by the fence where they won't encounter much in the way of spectators or bad vibes. They can have a nice relaxing topless ride in the sun.

OR

They can continue with the ride as it is, BUT, when they encounter men, the men will all avert their eyes and turn away and ignore the women so as not to cause any discomfiture.

You needn't point out that it's impossible, please just give me your opinion.
Dan

Dan, I think that Charles Ludlam would have been proud of these suggestions! very Theatre of the Ridiculous! Which is pretty apropos!

But honestly, I can only reiterate my previous statements...I was proud to be in CT. If I wanted to go on a nice, relaxing topless ride in the sun, I would head on out to one of the many nudist-friendly camps or find a remote spot somewhere outside of the city where i live. the point of ct for me was that i am proud, i am joyously tits out and that i am fearlessly badass in my approach to the world. the great thing about ct is that in the real world it isn't always like that. it is easy to be plagued by the insecurities that are nurtured throughout our lives, to be pushed around by the sometimes hurricane-force of the opinions of others or to be afraid. just afraid. but in ct, the raison d'etre is to be proud and fearless and to thumb your nose (or titties as it were) at these real world restrictions in an environment (the whole burning man experience) that is as tits out, balls to the wall, wacky, creative, free, celebratory and appreciative of all these qualities as it can get. in my consciousness it is as close to freedom in this world as few experiences are. and i want people to see me feeling so happy and proud...that is kind of the point! so pardon me while me and my lovely titties bounce on through this thread!

(aside to EDB....thank you so much for your titular support, my sweet one! )

[can't sit still]

Well, thank you Montana, that was enlightning.
Just as an aside; there was some info on Strange Cosmos a while back about PETA. Supposedly SC had proof that some woman who is a very vocal supporter of PETA was actually a man.
He had gotten a sex change and a nice pair of tits. He was doing all his protests topless just to show them off. PETA was only an excuse. Talk about envy.
Dan

[Cabanasprings]

Well, thank you Montana, that was enlightning.
Just as an aside; there was some info on Strange Cosmos a while back about PETA. Supposedly SC had proof that some woman who is a very vocal supporter of PETA was actually a man.
He had gotten a sex change and a nice pair of tits. He was doing all his protests topless just to show them off. PETA was only an excuse. Talk about envy.
Dan

PETA-envy?

[HughMungus]

As an alternative, the women could congregate out past the man and then ride around for a couple of hours out by the fence where they won't encounter much in the way of spectators or bad vibes. They can have a nice relaxing topless ride in the sun.

OR

They can continue with the ride as it is, BUT, when they encounter men, the men will all avert their eyes and turn away and ignore the women so as not to cause any discomfiture.

You needn't point out that it's impossible, please just give me your opinion.
Dan

Are you asking me which one I think is preferable? The former, of course. It's not about men looking or not looking or photographing or not photographing. CT is for women. Not every event at Burning Man is meant to be a spectacle for your consumption.

[philosopher]

I've wandered into CT on several occasions (being on playa time and not reading the calendar combine to make every event a chance occurrence for me) and have a question that must have occurred in some form to others besides me.

For me the question arose in the contrasting experiences of being in different years a basically naked (but somehow decorated) guy and a covered-with-costume guy among the smiling-and-waving-from-the-sidelines contingent. In my perception, the naked me offered the appearance of more solidarity and support than the costumed me. Not wanting to get into speculating about what it would be like if all the men at CT were naked (because it is such a remote possibility as things stand), I wonder how the bike-riders generally perceive the nude men at CT.

And further, since even from a crowd individual vibes sometimes noticeably present themselves, are there some positive experiences the cyclists have of these individual vibes that essentially depended on whether the individual was nude or clothed?

A bit more context: After my first burn, I was talking with a friend who been going for several years and I mentioned how there were a number of frat boy types around BRC who didn't seem to have a participant's imagination. "It's not that hard," she said. "If you don't have anything planned, you can at least take off your clothes."

[ZaphodBurner]

. It's not about men looking or not looking or photographing or not photographing. CT is for women. Not every event at Burning Man is meant to be a spectacle for your consumption.

Well, the fact is that some women want to be photographed during the ride...pretty much all the women in our camp did.

So the fundamental problem here is simply disagreement among the CT participants as to whether it should be a photo-free event or not. What they need to do is figure out for *themselves* and publish the solution so the rest of us aren't rehashing this same issue year after year.

If they can't decide, the will of the people will decide for them. Welcome to anarchy.

-zb

[EvilDustBooger]

CT is for women.

Oxygen is for photosynthesis
Therefore you shouldn`t breath air outside your home
You will distress the grass

[WebGraphics]

I respect the booby as a tool, as a milk producing factory.

Other than that I don't give a shit about boobies.

As soon as it isn't covered up it is no longer sexual imo.

Sure maybe some guys go trolling around for boobs. I think they should be pitied quietly rather than confronted loudly. Just my 2 cents.

[playasnake]

(1) I DO drive a big-assed 4WD truck (NOT an SUV, a TRUCK, damnit)... and a Cadillac, too. A motorcycle. And some antique stuff with 3 pedals on the floor (none of which is the accelerator). And occasionally an International, a Kenworth, and sometimes even an A/C Grader. Sprechen Sie Unimog? Ich spreche. >>grins<< Sno-go? Ja. Oshkosh (yeech!). Yeah. Kubodas are fun, as are John Deere articulated loaders. YAY!!!

Oh, by the way... I learned how to run a D-4 with various attachments (rock drill, auger, etc) back when it was all mechanical PTO powered (for the most part - the blade was hydraulic) when I was about... Jeez... 8 or so. And this in the Nevada Desert.

Guess I'm not the mousy housewife type, huh? >>giggles<<

bb
(Apokiliptika Tractor Woman)

where is the crush thread?

<swoon>

[joel the ornery]

CT is for women.

Oxygen is for photosynthesis
Therefore you shouldn`t breath air outside your home
You will distress the grass

hmmmm.... isn't it CO2, not 02 for photosynthesis

[EvilDustBooger]

hmmmm.... isn't it CO2, not 02 for photosynthesis

You`re right Oxygen and sugar are produced

(for the plants,... not You)

A little abstract, I agree.
But I was illustrating the type of ad hoc, incomplete, rather priggish statements D is using in his argument about giving women "protection"
that they don`t want or need.

But. You must agree that most plants -need- Oxygen to survive.
Only the plastic kind don`t require oxygen to survive. I believe it`s
used to process the sugar(a separate function from photosynthesis)

Now don`t get me started on the bee/honey analogy.....

[joel the ornery]

The Basics.
Sunlight plays a much larger role in our sustenance than we may expect: all the food we eat and all the fossil fuel we use is a product of photosynthesis, which is the process that converts energy in sunlight to chemical forms of energy that can be used by biological systems. Photosynthesis is carried out by many different organisms, ranging from plants to bacteria (Figure 1). The best known form of photosynthesis is the one carried out by higher plants and algae, as well as by cyanobacteria and their relatives, which are responsible for a major part of photosynthesis in oceans. All these organisms convert CO2 (carbon dioxide) to organic material by reducing this gas to carbohydrates in a rather complex set of reactions. Electrons for this reduction reaction ultimately come from water, which is then converted to oxygen and protons. Energy for this process is provided by light, which is absorbed by pigments (primarily chlorophylls and carotenoids). Chlorophylls absorb blue and red light and carotenoids absorb blue-green light (Figure 2), but green and yellow light are not effectively absorbed by photosynthetic pigments in plants; therefore, light of these colors is either reflected by leaves or passes through the leaves. This is why plants are green

http://photoscience.la.asu.edu/photosyn/education/photointro.html

[EvilDustBooger]

Thanks for the refresher, here`s more:
There is NO argument. Plants have to have oxygen as well as animals to
release energy from the sugar they make from photosynthesis. They make
more than they use and hence, we are able to survive.

K. VanHoeck
=============================================================

Plants need oxygen just as much as animals to release sugar that they make.
Plants obviously have to survive the winters in the temperate or colder
climates and at night. Photosynthesis is a separate process enabling
green plants to make sugars, but photosynthesis does not enable the plant to release energy.

http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/archive.htm

[EvilDustBooger]

boobies need oxygen too!

[HughMungus]

I was illustrating the type of ad hoc, incomplete, rather priggish statements D is using in his argument about giving women "protection"
that they don`t want or need.

Could you quote me where I said anything about giving women "protection".

Do you actually read my posts before replying? Here's my point one more time just for you: CT is for women. If you want the "frat boys" to stop attending, all the male "real burners" out there should set the example by not attending. You have already admitted that you don't know what CT is about. Why don't you find out before you say something stupid and useless about it yet again.

[EvilDustBooger]

In Effect you are trying to "protect" women during CT from
the participation of men - for some perceived sociological danger/reasons.

Or at least that is what I have perceived from your very narrow and limited dialog.
I and others have offered some original thoughts and reasons for our beliefs, while you have simply pissed and edited my statements for correctness, while repeating the same 2 or 3 sentences and... uber-intelligent responses like ...."how so?"....in defense of
your impossible and entertaining crusade to convince me that somehow the organizers and participants don`t think I deserve to enjoy the parade.
But, of course, the fact that you are sticking by your statement while very noble, doesn`t really offer anything New to this discussion, and therefore
might be considered..."stupid & useless" by a few .

And Hey!

Guess What?

I`m a "Real Burner"

nanny nanny boo boo!

[HughMungus]

In Effect you are trying to "protect" women during CT from the participation of men - for some perceived sociological danger/reasons.

No. I'm saying that CT is for women and women only. If you understood what CT is about, you would understand what I'm saying. You have yet to show a shred of understanding about CT.

I and others have offered some original thoughts and reasons for our beliefs, while you have simply pissed and edited my statements for correctness, while repeating the same 2 or 3 sentences and... uber-intelligent responses like ...."how so?"

Yes, because you make statements that you believe to be true yet don't back them up with some kind of coherent reasoning. I've backed-up my beliefs about CT. I'm still waiting for you to do so.

....in defense of your impossible and entertaining crusade to convince me that somehow the organizers and participants don`t think I deserve to enjoy the parade.

Here's your problem. You think it's about what you want, about your enjoyment, about what you "deserve". What you don't understand is that CT isn't about you. You think it's nothing more than a tit parade. If that's what you think it is, it's no wonder you think you should be able to attend.

I'm starting to wonder if you're taking on this selfish opinion of CT on purpose, just so someone like me can tear it apart. If so, thanks; you've done a great job.

[EvilDustBooger]

You know Dallas,
Thank goodness you repeated all that one more time.
I might never have gotten your point.

And I must confess I`m coming around to seeing your point of view.

And I`m changing my mind about CT.

..Not because I think that women will be better served by conducting an
event symbolizing freedom and unity within the BurningMan community, that is shielded from wrong doers by the sage, responsible and moral males in the BurningMan community.

No. Not because of that.
That would be too ironic for me agree with.

My reason is much more tangible.

Montana now wants to post photos of her sublime breasts on this thread.

I don`t think it`s a good idea. But she`s being kinda stubborn.
I`ve never worried about the occasional "flash" or whatever, but...
My god, they don`t call it the world-wide-web for nothing you know ?
...talk about frat boys...
Geez.
Do I want to share her magnificent mellons with....everyone?
I`m thinking....No.
I am very unsure about that. She is busting out with pride, and it`s making me very nervous.
Are these the actual wages of my sins?
Is this my Karma for having actually seen all those thousands of titties under the guise of being a "real burner"?

OK Dallas. You win.
Fratboy Go Home!
Everyone just go home.
And if she does happen to post photos of her mighty hooters here...
....Please Avert Your Eyes in Submissive Genuflection.

My god what was I thinking?

Silly wabbit....tits are for chicks.

And just wait til the organizers at the local Veterans Day Parade hear that
the parade is for Veterans. I`m sure we can make it more meaningful
for it`s participants by excluding all the spectators, after all, they are
probably just friends and family and such. They don`t understand. Just like I didn`t. It just stands to reason.
They have no idea what it really is all about.
We`ll fix `em. Who can argue with logic like that?
Not Me.
Sorry it took so long to sink in.

~
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[lurker]

No. I'm saying that CT is for women and women only. If you understood what CT is about, you would understand what I'm saying. You have yet to show a shred of understanding about CT.

I'm sorry...I read this and I think...how can a mass of women, riding in a public area, in BRC, be 'just for women'? It can't be.

Oh, being one of the women, sure that can be just for women, but the second it requires this mass public ride--and it does, 'cos that's what it is, it moves into the realm of everyone--and, by it's very nature, becomes spectacle.

In fact, I put it to you that were breats NOT an object of admiration, were there no men or women ogling, the entire thing would not happen.

It is and is not some woman-only communion--and it is a refutation, acceptance, degradation, glorification of all the fantasy/worship/fetishising that goes on about tits. It is Woman laying her claim to Woman and shoving it in your face.

And without an audience. Without a face to shove it into. It is nothing.

You can't radically self express without someone to express to

[EvilDustBooger]

Well.
You must be a fratboy with no idea what CT is.
You think it`s a big titty party for your perverted consumption you flake.
...at least that`s what all those words Dallas put in my mouth are saying.

[Cabanasprings]

As an alternative, the women could congregate out past the man and then ride around for a couple of hours out by the fence where they won't encounter much in the way of spectators or bad vibes. They can have a nice relaxing topless ride in the sun.

OR

They can continue with the ride as it is, BUT, when they encounter men, the men will all avert their eyes and turn away and ignore the women so as not to cause any discomfiture.

You needn't point out that it's impossible, please just give me your opinion.
Dan

Are you asking me which one I think is preferable? The former, of course. It's not about men looking or not looking or photographing or not photographing. CT is for women. Not every event at Burning Man is meant to be a spectacle for your consumption.

CT is for women. Says whom?

When the event entails a parade that passes in front of my camp it becomes by definition a spectacle for my consumption.

[EvilDustBooger]

Oh Cabanasprings.
It has become clear that You are not enlightened.
Why?
Because you don`t have a clue to what CT is.
And it is not about You.
That is my universal answer to all you fratboys.
You don`t get it, and you don`t deserve an explanation.
That`s all.
If You don`t like it...start at the beginning with You...
...and how You don`t understand.
It`s really simple. It isn`t for you because he said so.
Duh.
What don`t you understand about that?
And of course, with all the "real men" hovering in their tents during CT...
...the Fratboys wouldn`t dare show their weaselly camera-wielding faces.
It just stands to reason. Right D?
Now follow the blind logic, and avert your synapses or you will go mad
with your obscene desires.....