Date Rape at Burning Man

[Token]

Because FKO is a person, not an acronym. I think?

Yep. Prone to elaborate schemes of culture jamming.

[Snow]

the very same thought about FKO crossed my mind

[Isotopia]

I say that women everywhere DEMAND the right to drink themselves into oblivion, pass out in the middle of the playa, or in whoever's truck or tent they feel like, without having to wake up the next morning naked wondering what happened to them

Right because NOTHING says rape/sexual battery better than getting shit-faced drunk in a crowd of 40,000 strangers with an unrealistic expectation of not being harassed, stalked, assaulted.

What an absolutely fucking stupid, irresponsible and denigrating thing to say.

You are clown.

Do you do children's parties?

[bm_cricket]

Right because NOTHING says rape/sexual battery better than getting shit-faced drunk in a crowd of 40,000 strangers with an unrealistic expectation of not being harassed, stalked, assaulted.

Her expectations that Burning Man be utopia are absurd. She, like everyone everywhere, should realize that the people who attend Burning Man are a cross section of the (mostly white middle and upper class) human population. As such you can expect all the same fucked up shit that happens everywhere else. So I pose this question to you Isotopia: Should you have to assume that every other human being may rape you? The question is asking if that is the world you want to live in. The fact is we do live in that world but is it right to just accept it or should we fight kicking and screaming to change it?

[SFBurnergrrrl]

[quote="ygmir"]I do so agree, that, no one should have sex forced upon them.....no matter the gender or circumstances.

What I do lament, is, how these issues, take away a lot of the "spontaneous moments", IMHO.

At times, the "random encounter, nothing said, but, a comely look" scene from an old Bogart movie, is a fantasy of many..........
This, takes that away........especially for men (IMHO).

It seems, we really should get a signed consent form for sex, maybe even with witnesses (in case the signator is in an altered mental state).
Men are almost always viewed as the aggressor, and, perpetrator........and, so, we need to take so many precautions, as far as clarity of agreement, that, well.........I don't know........just seems unfortunate.


****above statement quoted by previous poster. ( I messed up the html somehow)



I actually totally agree with you on this. It IS very unfortunate and I don't think anyone should have to get a signed consent form to have sex. Sex shouldn't be treated like a business contract. I'm all about passion and romance. I want someone who will throw me up against the wall and kiss me passionately.... AFTER I've known the person for awhile and there has been flirting and mutual feelings on both sides. Then later, after dating for awhile, having sex with the person. To make this perfectly clear to everyone, what girls DONT want is some guy they just met an hour ago to throw them up against a wall and fuck them, nor do they want a guy to get on top of them while they're drunk and fuck them. I hope the guys reading this can are able to understand the difference between these two scenarios.
Maybe if guys watched more old romantic movies instead of porn we wouldn't have to deal with these issues.... Haha

Its tough to say what the rules to follow in these situations should be. But definitely don't have sex with someone who is so intoxicated she's having a hard time standing up or keeping her eyes open, unless she takes off her clothes herself, gets on top of you, and clearly says "fuck me", but even then, maybe not a good idea. Even if a girl has her top off, or let's you touch her, or goes down on you that doesn't mean she's OK with having actual penetration. If a girl gets you so turned on you think that you can't help yourself so you fuck her even though she's really out of it and say later, " she was coming on to me. She took her top off and was all over me," that is wrong. Just because a girl wants to have fun and play around some does not neccessarily mean she's giving you permission for actual penetration and you shouldn't do it unless you get clear communication from her that it's OK.

Let me be clear though, ANY unwanted sexual contact with someone is called rape by legal definition, whether it be taking someone's clothes off and touching them, oral sex, or full penetration.

I think everyone should be free to experience their sexuality the way they choose, but I think most guys assume all girls are sluts who want to have one night stands. Communication is key and I think guys (and girls) who are looking for casual sex or a one night stand, should communicate that clearly from the start. If it's not stated clearly than it should be assumed otherwise, that they're not OK with it. There is plenty of room for casual sex and kinky sex at burning man if that is what you are into, and there are camps that cater to that type of thing. So go to those camps and seek it out if you like, but don't make the mistake of assuming that any girl you meet is wanting to get fucked.

[d6]

gorbles.
hopefully writing all of this out is at least some small form of catharsis.

[dr.placebo]

Let me be clear though, ANY unwanted sexual contact with someone is called rape by legal definition, whether it be taking someone's clothes off and touching them, oral sex, or full penetration.

I think everyone should be free to experience their sexuality the way they choose, but I think most guys assume all girls are sluts who want to have one night stands. Communication is key and I think guys (and girls) who are looking for casual sex or a one night stand, should communicate that clearly from the start.

You start out by making sense about rape, then veer off into territory that is very contrary to my experience ("most guys assume all girls are sluts"), then get back on track with "Communication is key."

Yes, communication is a key ingredient, but you also have to grant some common understanding to have a conversation. I find it very difficult to believe that most guys think that all girls are sluts. That's an assumption that can cause needless distrust, distort any discussion, and demean people one knows little about.

As for intoxication, one of the things that we recommend in the BED workshops is to never have sex with someone who is intoxicated unless it's been explicitly agreed to while sober. Yes, it's not the easiest rule to follow, but it gets out of a lot of trouble. And even with an agreement, No Means No (substitute the appropriate safe word as necessary).

[EmilyD]

Also, I just wanted to add this. I never in a million years would have dreamed of pressing charges against this person. I'm way too compassionate of a person. Which is probably what my problem is. Like I said in my blog, there was no way I could accept what happened at the time....

I'm very sorry this painful incident is causing you grief and I'm sorry that you lost your friend through this experience but I just don't understand why you've come here to ePlaya to work your pain out. Please don't take my question as criticism, I'm just trying to figure out what you're looking for by sharing your story here. Is there something specific you're wanting from this community for your healing process? Are you here to warn others not to repeat your choices? I don't quite get why here and now.

[Isotopia]

So I pose this question to you Isotopia: Should you have to assume that every other human being may rape you? The question is asking if that is the world you want to live in. The fact is we do live in that world but is it right to just accept it or should we fight kicking and screaming to change it?

Of course not. To assume as much verges on the insanity that is paranoia. However, a healthy awareness of one's surroundings coupled with common sense behavior goes a long ways ensuring you don't get culled from the larger herd by by predators.

Perhaps the analogy is a weak one but my personal belief is that stalkers, rapists and other sexual predators behave very, very much like a top-of-pyramid hunting animal. They lie in wait, the seek and target their prey - usually quite methodically, they isolate and follow up with initially wounding or incapacitating them before going in for the final assault. There really isn't much of a difference.

Now consider the antelope grazing on the Serengeti plain. Remember all the nature films you watched on TV there on mom or dad's lap when you were a kid? OK, do you remember what the antelopes that survive mean ol Mr. Lion had in common? First off all, they weren't continually freaked out that there was a lion somewhere in the bushes. They were cautious but not in some paranoid fashion. They were just doing their thing. In a crowd, with friends, in a very visible environment. They don't get all fucked up and leave the herd limping off to wonder out on the playa without a spotter. They're usually not weak, can get back into the protection of herd if necessary and warn others when warranted.

It isn't necessary to get into specifics but I'll note that I was a Black Rock Ranger for eleven years. I was the shift lead on the grave shift for a good number of those years which meant that I was always on the radio and heard everything and reported it as necessary to law enforcement. In spite of the innumerable people who come to the event thinking that it is all love and bliss I'll just note that there's an under belly to the event that most people are completely unaware of and never hear about. I've seen it too many times and it isn't pretty. As someone the event these days is very much a reflection of the society that makes up the default world. Same creep, same predators, same clueless assholes and same good and decent people.

[SFBurnergrrrl]

Let me ask this: if the two of you woke up the next morning and were both snuggled under a warm comforter instead of you being left there sprawled out with nothing on, would you be thinking differently of him? If he said all the "right" things to you the next morning, about how special you are, and gave you a big hug, vs. being a dickhead to you, would you consider this a very special night of having "made love" vs. date rape?

It sounds a bit like his cold actions are making you feel violated and angry. Your collective reactions to each other at this point may be what's causing you such distress. He may have started this by a callous attitude the next morning, and your response to him of anger and frustration may have added to it.

Many good relationships start off like this one. A few drinks at the bar, back to the apartment for some cheap monkey dancing, and then a second date. It all depends on how the chemistry works.

In answer to your question, "would I have felt differently about it if we had woken up cuddling under a warm blanket?" No, there is nothing romantic about someone having sex with you while you are unconscious, nor would there be anything romantic about willingly having sex with someone and being too fucked up to remember it the next day. Although if it had happened the way you describe then I'm sure that it would've added even more confusion to the incident, and possibly made me less likely to believe that he had intentionally raped me. When I look back on that part of the scenario now it does seem to make it clearer that his intentions towards me were not that of a caring friend or the way someone who has been in love with you would treat you.

After the incident occurred I never expressed any anger, or unkindness to him at all, that was all him, he got angry at me, avoided me, wouldn't speak to me, was weird towards the other camp members. I did everything I could to smooth things over between us. I felt sorry for him, and thought he felt bad about it. I wanted to pretend like nothing happened and deluded myself into thinking everything was OK and that he and I were going to be together. It's kind of hard to explain or understand why someone would react that way, I guess. I let him fuck me again a few days later, and it hurt really bad, and was not enjoyable for me at all. He didn't care about me. I just laid down and let him do it. I hadn't had sex in a few years. I felt guilty, felt like I should give him what he wanted and make him happy and desperately wanted to be in a relationship with him.... It's really hard to explain.... I was never in love with him. We continued to date for about six months after that, long distance. I would fly across the country once or twice a month to see him. Our relationship revolved around him wanting to have sex and me not really being into it or wanting it and then him getting all butt hurt about it. Just a really fucked up situation.

As far as good relationships starting with taking someone home from the bar, I'm not so sure about that.... I guess it depends on what your standards are. Not the way I want to start a relationship with someone.

[bm_cricket]

So I pose this question to you Isotopia: Should you have to assume that every other human being may rape you? The question is asking if that is the world you want to live in. The fact is we do live in that world but is it right to just accept it or should we fight kicking and screaming to change it?

Of course not. To assume as much verges on the insanity that is paranoia. However, a healthy awareness of one's surroundings coupled with common sense behavior goes a long ways ensuring you don't get culled from the larger herd by by predators.

Perhaps the analogy is a weak one but my personal belief is that stalkers, rapists and other sexual predators behave very, very much like a top-of-pyramid hunting animal. They lie in wait, the seek and target their prey - usually quite methodically, they isolate and follow up with initially wounding or incapacitating them before going in for the final assault. There really isn't much of a difference.

Now consider the antelope grazing on the Serengeti plain. Remember all the nature films you watched on TV there on mom or dad's lap when you were a kid? OK, do you remember what the antelopes that survive mean ol Mr. Lion had in common? First off all, they weren't continually freaked out that there was a lion somewhere in the bushes. They were cautious but not in some paranoid fashion. They were just doing their thing. In a crowd, with friends, in a very visible environment. They don't get all fucked up and leave the herd limping off to wonder out on the playa without a spotter. They're usually not weak, can get back into the protection of herd if necessary and warn others when warranted.

It isn't necessary to get into specifics but I'll note that I was a Black Rock Ranger for eleven years. I was the shift lead on the grave shift for a good number of those years which meant that I was always on the radio and heard everything and reported it as necessary to law enforcement. In spite of the innumerable people who come to the event thinking that it is all love and bliss I'll just note that there's an under belly to the event that most people are completely unaware of and never hear about. I've seen it too many times and it isn't pretty. As someone the event these days is very much a reflection of the society that makes up the default world. Same creep, same predators, same clueless assholes and same good and decent people.

Good analogy. I liked my "reason why I lock my bicycle at Burning Man" analogy a previous post on this thread but to each his own. It's all the same manure.

And trust me, I am as familiar with the underbelly of the event as I can be without volunteering as a green dot or as a graveyard medic. I considered Rangering for 8.2 seconds and then thought better of it. I'm glad you do it but for my part I'll stick with greeters. It's all the warm fuzzy feelings with none of the heart wrenching agony.

For better or worse I think I do it accurately when friends ask me to tell them what is at Burning Man: Everything. Everything anyone can think. Usually their mind goes to the nice stuff...

[d6]

Isotopia - I will go get mommy another drink. Your posts are 99.9% on.

As a longtime brc drone, I have found that when asked, I always mention the criminal opportunistic element first, starting with thieves I chased from our camp, creepers lurking around the domes/tents, short versions of other bad scenarios where I had to intervene, and that BRC is populated with sh!tbags of all varieties, and with anywhere else, you need to be aware of your surroundings.

[Shambala]

Let me ask this: if the two of you woke up the next morning and were both snuggled under a warm comforter instead of you being left there sprawled out with nothing on, would you be thinking differently of him? If he said all the "right" things to you the next morning, about how special you are, and gave you a big hug, vs. being a dickhead to you, would you consider this a very special night of having "made love" vs. date rape?

It sounds a bit like his cold actions are making you feel violated and angry. Your collective reactions to each other at this point may be what's causing you such distress. He may have started this by a callous attitude the next morning, and your response to him of anger and frustration may have added to it.

Many good relationships start off like this one. A few drinks at the bar, back to the apartment for some cheap monkey dancing, and then a second date. It all depends on how the chemistry works.

In answer to your question, "would I have felt differently about it if we had woken up cuddling under a warm blanket?" No, there is nothing romantic about someone having sex with you while you are unconscious, nor would there be anything romantic about willingly having sex with someone and being too fucked up to remember it the next day. Although if it had happened the way you describe then I'm sure that it would've added even more confusion to the incident, and possibly made me less likely to believe that he had intentionally raped me. When I look back on that part of the scenario now it does seem to make it clearer that his intentions towards me were not that of a caring friend or the way someone who has been in love with you would treat you.

After the incident occurred I never expressed any anger, or unkindness to him at all, that was all him, he got angry at me, avoided me, wouldn't speak to me, was weird towards the other camp members. I did everything I could to smooth things over between us. I felt sorry for him, and thought he felt bad about it. I wanted to pretend like nothing happened and deluded myself into thinking everything was OK and that he and I were going to be together. It's kind of hard to explain or understand why someone would react that way, I guess. I let him fuck me again a few days later, and it hurt really bad, and was not enjoyable for me at all. He didn't care about me. I just laid down and let him do it. I hadn't had sex in a few years. I felt guilty, felt like I should give him what he wanted and make him happy and desperately wanted to be in a relationship with him.... It's really hard to explain.... I was never in love with him. We continued to date for about six months after that, long distance. I would fly across the country once or twice a month to see him. Our relationship revolved around him wanting to have sex and me not really being into it or wanting it and then him getting all butt hurt about it. Just a really fucked up situation.

As far as good relationships starting with taking someone home from the bar, I'm not so sure about that.... I guess it depends on what your standards are. Not the way I want to start a relationship with someone.

SFB, It's always a delicate situation when guys are commenting on this type of subject. No matter how hard we try, there is truly a different view of the world. That's just the way it is.

After reading your last post, it is painfully clear to me that you are 100% in the right here. You did nothing wrong and you went out of your way to attempt to be nice to your long time friend. He is what is know as a "shit-heel". A guy with low morals and zero empathy for anyone. He cares only about himself and what he wants. He may even be suffering from "only child syndrome". He appears to be a selfish little punk.

It is normal to feel violated by him, not just for his actions while you were unconscious, but for all the crap he pulled afterwards. You tried your best to make all of his miscalculations right and he was just going to keep taking. That's what people with low morals do!

It's time to put this jerk out of your mind and move on. I can tell by your first post here that you were truly hurting and you should be comforted in rereading all that was written here, that everyone is trying to help you. I really hope it did help you to get this off your chest.

[EmilyD]

Still wondering....

[Zona]

Yes the Franz-Keldysh Oscillation is very interesting, funny that should show up here. I wonder if it's real, and all its applications.

Lock your door, that helps too.

[Popobumm]

I feel as if many are mistaking the reality of the world as acceptable. Just because things are a certain way in life, that doesn't mean that they should stay that way.

I have to agree with 90% of what SFBurnergrrrl is trying to convey. I doubt her or anybody would want to go around telling women to get pissed drunk and pass out among 30k people and expect nothing to happen, but I don't see why it would not make the world a better place if everyone had that mentality and could do that without worry. It'd be nice.

But of course, that's just not the way it is. I know burners who go looking to get laid as one of their main objectives. If the same situation happened amongst my group of friends, you'd probably have to hold me back from tearing the guy apart. Just because I know it happens doesn't mean I am going to be ok with it.

On the other hand, there's the 10% which I'm still unclear about. She did give signals that I could see would be quite alluring. I mean...if I'm going down on a girl and she's laughing...I probably would continue. Of course if she was passed out lifeless that'd be a definite cue to stop, but I know I've been drunk enough to blackout and not remember a thing, only to have my friends tell me all the stupid shit I was doing the day after. So giving him the benefit of the doubt (innocent 'til proven guilty right?), there's a chance you weren't unconscious and were actually participating? Small chance I know...

Regardless, if "tyler" was a friend of mine I'd probably expel him from my circle. I've done it before. You just don't fuck with people who are too intoxicated to make decisions.

[SFBurnergrrrl]

Poppobum, I understand where you're coming from when you said laughing may have been construed as a sign of me being into it. While I do know that I wasn't a willing participant, what I don't know is: did he do what he did because he is a predator? Or did he do it because he was too drunk to realize that I wasn't participating willingly andbecause he misconstrued the signals? I would like to believe that he has real regrets about what happened, and feels remorse for it, but that was never expressed to me by him. Sometime I just feel really sorry for him and I feel like he must feel horrible having to live with what happened, and wish he and I could talk about it and find a way to heal from it. Other times I feel deeply suspicious that he did what he did out of hate and think he may have planned it, even, but I don't think I'll ever have an answer to that. I suppose it is better to err on the side of believing that someone has a good heart even if they've made some stupid mistakes, which is why I've never wanted to press charges, but then i ask myself if I made the right decision. It's definitely not OK to send the message that rape is OK. I remember reading something saying that some men believe that women don't really mind being raped all
that much.

[SFBurnergrrrl]

Shambala,
Thanks for the kind words and understanding.

[DVD Burner]

Maybe if guys watched more old romantic movies instead of porn we wouldn't have to deal with these issues.... Haha

The dumbest quote of the year!

[Fire_Moose]

Wow what a psycho feminist bish.


When was the last time you got laid? I'm pretty sure you need a good pounding in the nether regions.

[DVD Burner]

Personally speaking, I would avoid her myself as much at all costs.

You never know what she is going to think afterwords.

[ygmir]

Wow what a psycho feminist bish.


When was the last time you got laid? I'm pretty sure you need a good pounding in the nether regions.

DVD Burner
PostPosted: Wed May 19, 2010 7:50 am Post subject:
Personally speaking, I would avoid her myself as much at all costs.

You never know what she is going to think afterwords.

you guys are just asking to get an ass kicking, you know...........

[gyre]

Maybe if guys watched more old romantic movies instead of porn we wouldn't have to deal with these issues.... Haha

What about Dark Passage?
That's my idea of a romantic film.

But if you want someone that never looks at porn, you don't actually want a male, do you?
Or many females, for that matter.


As you can see, Fire Moose is one of our more sensitive burners.

[littleflower]

I feel as if many are mistaking the reality of the world as acceptable. Just because things are a certain way in life, that doesn't mean that they should stay that way.

unfortunately, change has consequences ... which is what a lot of people are trying to express here. how would you change the world to prevent men from taking advantage of an extremely drunk girl ... on top of the solutions that are already in place? it's not like this is a new problem that has never been addressed. and honestly, on the shit-heap of world realities that shouldn't "stay that way" (poverty, war, disease, &c) i'd say this one is pretty low.

radical self reliance, you know.

[Dr. Pyro]

By the sounds of things, some people must think that nobody ever gets laid unless via the rape route. Something is amiss here in my opinion.

[gyre]

FYI, blackout in the context of alcohol doesn't mean unconsciousness at all.
It refers to not remembering your actions while awake, the next day.
And it doesn't have to be a lot of alcohol, or someone appearing intoxicated at all.
Exhaustion and lack of sleep, as well as other things are factors.
There is even a condition where people have sex in their sleep, without the appearance of it.

Many women become sexually aggressive when intoxicated, perhaps due to repression or anxiety in daily life.

If you behave differently at all when drinking, it's wise to wonder why.
I have seen it with a woman who claims to have no sex drive at all.
Clearly not the case.

[C.f.M.]

Something is amiss, Dr. Pyro: all of the facts.

how would you change the world to prevent men from taking advantage of an extremely drunk girl

First, I'd have to be convinced that the man was taking "advantage."

Two people getting drunk as fuck and spending the evening fooling around is just that. Sometimes the woman is the aggressor, sometimes the man, sometimes who knows? There's just vagina and penis all over the place and oh god, what was I thinking?? the next morning.

Ugly Dougly mentioned earlier, "How do you not know you aren't violent, when drunk?"

People do and say all kinds of things they have zero recollection of. It's called "blacking out" for a reason. Not remembering what you did doesn't not mean you were physically unconcious.

As I posted earlier, none of us were there and cannot say what actually happened. Maybe she, in her blacked out state, was giving consent. Maybe she even started it. Who knows? None of us, and neither of them (unless he was sober and recalls clearly what happened but until he 'fesses up, I'm not jumping to conclusions based on circumstantial evidence).

People carry on entire conversations and do things for hours and hours under the influence of alcohol and have no memory of what they said or did the next day. Some do it in their sleep.



Maybe he, in his drunken state, didn't know what he was doing. And rather than discuss the drunken confusion openly, he's trying to act like it didn't happen, because he's so ashamed. We don't know.

As I stated earlier, chemically-induced states of forgetfulness makes it no less unfortunate/regrettable/tragic, when one person comes to regret whatever might have happened, and for fuck's sake, nobody here thinks it's OK to force anybody to do anything, much less have sexual intercourse, but I cannot consider this man a "rapist" based on the described scenario.

I'm with the posters wondering why this is being brought up so long after the fact, and here. What is the end goal of all this? Send dude a link to the conversation, allow him to tell his side - if you want judgement(s) made in an open court (ie, making date rape accusations on an internet message board) then offer all evidence and facts.

Clearly, that probably won't happen but he at least should be offered the chance to explain himself.

Stirring up trouble isn't going to help help a traumatized psyche, and it certainly isn't going to educate on ways to behave responsibly, sexually.

What will be the productive result of all this discourse, on a heated, trigger-word ("rape") topic?

Lesson is, kids: don't get so fucking wasted that you will be unable to prevent yourself from getting into situations you do not want to be in and/or cannot get out of.

If you find yourself at that point (hey, it happens) alert your friends. Go to bed. Stop drinking immediately and start on some food and water. Tell strangers, "Oh crap I'm drunk!" This can alert people to keep an eye on you and inform potential hook-ups who aren't aware you're not attracted to them, you're just drunk, that they need to pass, and maybe find you tomorrow.

If you think you might be unable to control yourself and worry about what you might do, don't drink. Pass on the molly. Radical self-reliance and personal responsibility.

[teardropper]

I can give many additional examples of scenarios I've where I flat-out walked in the middle and said "what is going on here?"

In public places!

All involving drunk people.

Man, where do you hang out? I'm torn between wanting to go there and knowing I need to stay away.

[C.f.M.]

I can give many additional examples of scenarios I've where I flat-out walked in the middle and said "what is going on here?"

In public places!

All involving drunk people.

Man, where do you hang out? I'm torn between wanting to go there and knowing I need to stay away.

Before burns, bars. I was a bartender, and later worked the door at another club. Now, as a Ranger and a burn-goer (and someone who still frequents bars).

[goathead]

I can give many additional examples of scenarios I've where I flat-out walked in the middle and said "what is going on here?"

In public places!

All involving drunk people.

note to self, really need to make it to the e-playa meet and greet.