300 watts bullshit

[djmalloc]

Has anybody with a medium scale sound system had luck with their placement? I guess it's possible that the first time we decided to register we just happened to get *really* unlucky.

However, all of the camps around us with sound systems were being asked to turn it down. Actually, it worked out sweet for us because they were a lot loud and played a lot more and so folks forgot about us.

And the quiet dude who was surrounded by us and all the other noise camps would probably argue he got a pretty shitty placement.

And all I've heard on this thread is people bitching about noise or lack of noise, so it doesn't seem to be working well across the board. But then again, who comes to eplaya to notify everyone on how well everything worked out for them this year ;)

I would love to hear about people who have been placed well, either quiet people who wanted quiet or loud people who were able to play as loud and as often as they like.

If there are a lot of success stories maybe we will try registering again.
It's probably better than my current plan to build an extensive tunnel network under the playa and rage with the mole people next year.

[allanon2]

Our camp and several neighboring camps were heavily disrupted this year by a couple of nearby "rave" camps that had setup heavy duty outdoor speaker systems and then ran them 24/7 for the last few days of the burn.

We had music too but refused to crank it up enough to compete and thus were drowned out the rest of the week (I am ignoring the fact that our 30 or so folks could not sleep when we finally turned in).

"Sound camps" are supposed to be relegated to areas where they provide mimimal disruption to camps which are not strictly about blasting loud music.

The rule for sound outside of the designated areas is 300 watts. What bullshit. Being into sound setups myself, both nearby camps were running no less than 4,000 watts at full, ear-bleed levels.

Complaints to the BRR achieved nada. They claim that "over 300 watts" offending camps get 3 warnings and then get their plug pulled....never happened!

My ears are just now stopping the ringing that makes you think you were at a rock concert. Ouch!

Great way for inconsiderate neighbors to ruin other's hard work and our own BM experience!!!!!

I hope BRC management gets the message and corrects this for 2006!!

i was camped at trego and even heard them

[AntiM]

I would love to hear about people who have been placed well, either quiet people who wanted quiet or loud people who were able to play as loud and as often as they like.

We camp in Hushville, which has no generators and no amplified music, generally a quiet camp. We were placed right across the street from Gigsville. WTF?! was the first response, however, Gigsvillians were great! One sub-camp, Vibe, had a series of carports set up with three Djs and a pretty hefty sound system. They were exemplary neighbors, played their music when they liked, but weren't trying for the ear-bleed range, and had the system set up turned inwards and toward the perpendicular street. I do know some Hushpups chatted with them early on, but it was in the "Hi we're your neighbors " way, not the "turn that crap down" way. I used earplugs and had no problems whatsoever with the sound, and never went over to complain. Didn't party with them either, but that's just because I was off doing other things. They seemed surprised that Hushville liked them, I'm not certain if they felt restricted or not.

Also, last year, Hushville had Golden Cafe across the street. Again, excellent, excellent neighbors. They rock.

In both cases, I think folks walking across the street and chatting early on helped immensely. Communication, whatta concept. The placement seemed wrong at first, but worked out quite well, at least from my personal view.

Far more annoying was the place a couple blocks down that always had a dj of sorts and loud, loud music and NOT ONE person dancing. I NEVER saw anyone partying there. It was sad and lame. Right behind "don't be a dick" suggestion should be "how lame are you?" rule of thumb. Pull off the great mass parties sure, but if you're only attracting a handful of people,or worse, only one or two, take it down a few notches. Louder will not make more party folk simply appear, especailly if your camp's appearance is dull and drab. Do something freakin' interesting!

[Kinetic IV]

I wonder if that empty dance camp was the same one with the DJ Wolfie sign hanging out front?

[nova_mike]

I never have any problems sleeping and we were in CENTER camp. Friday and Saturday, there was monster music comping out of that place all night. Instead of wasting energy bitching about it, I concentrate on sleeping and ya know what? It works.

How did so many babies assemble in one thread? Come on, you're burners, suck it up and deal. :D

[EvilDustBooger]

My favorite was the camp near 4;30 & fetish or Gestalt.
A loud ass live band camp that ground out gobs of crappy cover songs.
I would have been fine with it, but unfortunately they were only playing
the midnight to 6AM shift. I can`t believe they got away with it. I remember a particular shitty rock version
of "Country Road" playing for what seemed hours, while I grimaced
at the awful amateur drum-whacking bastards.
Definitely deserving of the 2005 Foot in the Ass award.
I never saw anyone around during the daytime hours, but may I use
this opportunity to issue those folks and their camp a big resounding:
-------------------------FUCK YOU-----------------------------------!!!


And a big hey/howdy to all the rangers/officials that ignored them.


There. That kinda feels better!

[rattatrat]

Reading all these posts and threads certainly made me feel validated. Our camp this year was Oracle. The neighborhood was totally awesome, really quiet, except for Thunkytown, who intermittently blasted their stuff at random hours. To their credit, they kept it down at night. But the music was....eclectic in a way I didn't enjoy (except for Kermit the Frog's cover of Eminem's Slim Shady, that was just funny). And no one else in the 'hood did either, apparently, in view of the wild applause resulting when they finally shut it off for the last time.
But this all misses the point. Our camp does Tarot readings. If I can't speak at a normal volume, and the person for whom I'm reading can't either, then what I do at BM is a bust. My camp, my shade structure, the whole little thing is designed to offer a unique, safe and hopefully soothing experience to those who come. I had begged, pleaded with BMOrg to place us somewhere quiet, after enduring 2 years of the ear-shattering nightmares out at 2:00. So it was really disappointing to find a camp right next door, at 7:30 and Catharsis, with even a BRR camped there, blasting away. I went and talked to them one afternoon after I had to shut my tarot readings down due to being drowned out by the sound. They were very nice about my request to work something out, but what they said disturbed me. They said that they had no problem respecting MY request since what I was doing was my art, but they (in short) thumbed their noses at all the other people who said they were ruining their time at BM because of the noise. It was almost like, " if you can't prove to us that our art is interfering with your art, go stuff yourself." I didn't say anything about that because I didn't want to make enemies of my immediate neighbors, but it got me wondering. Here's my thought.
THis "sound issue" is obviously a huge problem for a lot of people. It can't be solved without involvement from BMOrg. So what about if the theme camps registering had an earlier cutoff--say the middle of June. Ask every camp if they want to be with or away from amplified sound. Take all the "want peace and quiet" types and put them in a big, snowballed village. It would be a large, immense community of relative quiet, maybe filling in between 8:00 and 4:00 on a certain number of streets. Almost like asking BMOrg to create the village, and asking who the tenants want to be. The street signs would say "Reserved for Non-Sound Theme Camps" in those areas to notify the less-informed not to camp their with their amps. Let the people who want much more sound have the outer perimeters. BMOrg would agree to just not place anyone indicating sound in the quiet areas, period. Greeters could mention it along with the porta potty litany. I don't want to get into the relative merits of people who think earplugs or just not sleeping is the answer--this goes beyond that. The point is to create a community where all those whose art is inherently quiet--reflective spaces, spiritual readings, massage camps, conversation camps, whatever and on and on, can have a place to do what they do without being shut down by people who want to make lotsa high decibel sound. I know that my notion is imperfect, but I also feel that brainstorming as to what the solution might be would be productive. I hate to complain to BMOrg without being able to provide a workable solution or three. Well thanks for listening.

[DeafGuy]

I never have any problems sleeping and we were in CENTER camp. Friday and Saturday, there was monster music comping out of that place all night. Instead of wasting energy bitching about it, I concentrate on sleeping and ya know what? It works.

How did so many babies assemble in one thread? Come on, you're burners, suck it up and deal. :D

Amazing....if you actually read the thread you will see most aren't babies and only half talk about sleeping. The thread has grown exponentially because the mis-placed and (in some cases) extremely discourteous X-thousand watt sound camps overwhelmed nearby activities.

By the way, we went to center camp several times Friday and Saturday night and NEVER heard volume levels like those discussed (in "misplaced" sound camps) here. If you're interested, read the comments completely.

Reading all these posts and threads certainly made me feel validated....I hate to complain to BMOrg without being able to provide a workable solution or three. Well thanks for listening.

Your idea is excellent and hopefully someone from BMOrg is reading this thread since so many were affected in similar ways throughout BRC. But that said, there are large camps that have SOME sound (they are not sound camps, but are playing something at a very low level) that would be disruptive to a quiet area. Many of those posted here saying that they refused to compete with the rave camps. Those, like us, had our camps overwhelmed to the extent that we were essentially shut down during the "dusk to dawn" shows.

The BMOrg needs to listen to this thread, site camps to avoid these conflicts and then (screwup or not) enforce the "don't be a dickhead" rule.

[nocturnal_steve]

>>>[quote]Ask every camp if they want to be with or away from amplified sound. [/quote]

Problem is that even the high decibel large scale sound camps want to be away from OTHER large scale sound camps ....so they are not in danger of being drowned out or haveing cross sound from other camps!!!

Also, about 4 years ago the BORG experimented with having a "quiet" and "loud" side, bisected by 6:00 ...the cafe. They abandoned that under with the reasoning that "loud and quiet are relative terms" . This should be easy to dicern, quiet = no amplified sound !!! They also found that the quiet side was filling up way too fast ... and the density of BRC would have been lopsided ! Tells you something about where the general sentiment is re : LSS camps !

[teknoid]

its always the same: art versus music!
it seems to me as burners got old (er) they forgot that bm started out as basically a rave in the desert, and decided that dance music isnt art. what the hell? music is ALSO art! and come on, if you go to burning man......i mean its NOt a spa vacation! there are things you simply deal with : the weather, the dust, art that you dont consider art. a little acceptance goes a long way.
it sure sucks if a really quiet camp gets placed next to a soundcamp, but really, cant you just talk to your neighbors? or, just simply dont rely on placement by bm organizers - place yourself! of course you might then not be able to camp at prime real eastate like the esplanade. come on: why would you want to have your quiet chill zone on the esplanade anyway? thats like having a meditation in the middle of times square! just plain silly!
if you want quiet, live in the suburbs.....not the center of a busteling city.

but, i would actually prefer if all sound camps where scattered throughout the unknown- i think that would be much more exciting and adventurous. and it would bother none of the sleepy-boos. its so darn predictable if all the sound camps are in the same little spot every year - booooring.
this would cut down on this commercialism that is developing with larger soundcamps - which in turn ruins the musical quality!

blah blah blah - ..... its a PARTY with some art! its big enough to find what you might need.

or maybe BMORG should make the area bigger? i mean there are more and more people every year, yet the area of space available stays the same! i remember my first burn ...... NO FENCE!!!!!! ahhhh!
heaven!

[cowgirl]

with all due respect, your response sounds like you've never been to burning man.

[Stilesfamily]

its always the same: art versus music!
it seems to me as burners got old (er) they forgot that bm started out as basically a rave in the desert,

Either I have been terribly misinformed by the biographical BM info I have read and herd, I have accidentally fallen into the Bazzaro e-playa, or you don’t know what you are talking about (I tend toward the later). BM has never been a rave; its ideology IMHO has been a collection of artists coming together for the sake of art. Freedom of expression to the extent that it does not impede the free enjoyment of others. Now I agree that music is art but in many of the cases here it seems that the artists’ enjoyment of BRC is infringing on others. Boom, Boom, Boom all night long impedes my enjoyment of the burn, if I wanted to hear that I would just stay at home here in Long Beach, and I don’t think that I am the exception to the rule. If BM wants to turn into a big rave all I ask is to be informed so I don’t waste my money buying a ticket. I don’t think anyone would be too happy if I designed some sort of fire themed camp that raised the ambient temperature in the surrounding camps 10 degrees (accept on cold nights), or had a sulfur camp that created a stench that all could smell for 100 yard in any direction (not that ANYONE would enjoy that). So why would you not realize that a music style, which has probably the smallest listening audience of all “popular” music forms, would not be considered noise pollution by the same account? Now that I think about it, I would not want to hear any form of music, that loud, all night long.

[geekster]

We were camped in a very quiet spot. 4:40 or so and Catharsis. Hushville was behind us and AEZ was beside us. We were aware of who was around us and we took some steps to work within the culture of the neighborhood and it didn't seem to cause them any problems or us any discomfort.

We had a generator that we kept baffled. Unless you were standing right next to it, you probably couldn't hear it. We had a small stereo in our "juke joint", an older home system someone picked up on craigslist or something, I believe, with the speakers pointed towards the man, away from hushville.

While I am a believer in the idea that a camp's culture ends at the borders of their camp and they have no right to enforce their culture on others, I also believe in doing what one can do that is reasonable to fit in to the surrounding culture if it doesn't interfere with your own participation. In our case, the music wasn't really the main draw at night, the burn barrels, benches, and bar were. It was more about sitting around and talking with folks as they came by and warmed up than it was dancing up a storm. I think most of us wanted an atmosphere where we could talk with people.

I saw that camp with the loud music and nobody there. I wondered what was up with that and figured that maybe they were just getting set up or something. Oh, and the golden cafe this year was down 4:30 a ways across from Hair of the Dog. I loved that place on Monday morning when they were making margaritas with the chainsaw blender!

[EB]

Again, "My right to a reasonable standard of sound (300 watts)" trumps your "If it's too loud, you're too old."

Thanks for playing.

EB

[geekster]

The way I heard it was ... "If you are TRYING to sleep, you are probably at the wrong event."

[jadewombat]

The way I heard it was ... "If you are TRYING to sleep, you are probably at the wrong event."

I can identify with this. Bring ear plugs or ear muffs. Remember sound travels pretty well out in the desert, even a low wattage system can sound much louder than it is. From a DJs point of view, a couple of years ago I was spinning at some friends camp at one of the outer streets, very small setup with just two mackies in front of their RV. Anyhoo, a small crowd formed around me groovin' on the sounds and cheering me on. A guy who had obviously just shown up for his first burn came over and said that he was trying to have a conversation with someone at their camp. WTF? Mind you, this was at 2PM, middle of the daytime. I blew him off because he obviously thought that BM was like car camping at Yosemite out in the desert or some shit. Another time I was spinning at the Spoon Return Center on the Esplanade, also in the middle of the daytime. A guy comes in and tells me, announces really, a band is about to start up at a nearby camp. This says to me either he has the notion that electronic music isn't 'real' music or doesn't take any talent to DJ and or his audience would get scared off from even vaguely hearing my stuff. Well, tough SHIT! What about my audience?...It is BM though, and I was a nice guy and turned the bass down a hair. Maybe I should complain about the hippie drumming off in the distance keeping me up at nights, or the BM Brass Band that wandering into our camp mid-morning that woke my ass up when I was trying to sleep this year. If you don't want to be exposed to someone else's expressionism or have an idea of what BM is supposed to be(pure arts festival), stay home OK?!

[DeafGuy]

....stay home OK?!

I think your last line best sums up your posting's entire philosophy. No point in arguing with you since the rave camps we were dealing with had the exact same attitude.

The bottom line is figuring out a way for DJ's to have/play their music and for others to be able to function at the same time. A number of replies throughout this thread have dealt with sleep. That is not the only or prime issue.

In our area, for example, after Wednesday not much could be accomplished since we were sandwiched between sound camps that greatly exceeded the 300 watt limit, were not shut down and had no intention of cooperating with their neighbors.

I have not seen a single posting in this thread where the person agrees with the idea of a better organized sound plan and then takes the attitude that you, the inconsiderate DJ should "stay home".....hmmmmm......

[dragonfly Jafe]

As others have stated repeatedly, if a camp is acting this poorly with total disregard for the event rules and those around them, and the Rangers refuse to attempt intervention, a pair of wire cutters can be very effective. Be sure to wear gloves.

[EvilDustBooger]

It helps sometimes to use only one hand on the hi-amp gear.

[unjonharley]

It helps sometimes to use only one hand on the hi-amp gear.

~
It's the ends that need to fly away. Damn hard to replace out in the desert. Each seems to have there own design.

[stuart]

if you are sandwiched between two sound camps and the rangers will not intervene on your behalf then perhaps you would be best served by checking your premise against the local milieu.

[vic]

We were across the road from a camp that went way over the 300 watt max night after night - clear till dawn. Caused a lot of stress in our camp. Several people simply left Burning Man a few days early - ruined their experience. Polite requests did not work. When some of their camp members were drinking at our bar one evening before the start of their noise show, they seemed offended when we told them that their sound system dominated our camp for 8 hours a day. What self-centered jerks.
When it is so loud that you can't talk to somebody in your own camp, it's too loud. You can walk away from visual art, but if you have put many hours into building an interesting camp, it's not so easy to just pull up stakes and more your camp.

[dragonfly Jafe]

if you are sandwiched between two sound camps and the rangers will not intervene on your behalf then perhaps you would be best served by checking your premise against the local milieu.

A more noble choice to be sure. But by the time some of these camps have made their intent clear, it is too late to move. Perhaps earplugs should be included in the entry kit, and the phrase on the back of the ticket ammended to read "You voluntarily assume the risk of serious injury, deafness, or death by attending this event...."

[Kinetic IV]

When you've tried diplomacy, when the Rangers fail to respond or have a general antipathy towards your problem....these work wonders.



Before anyone cries that's playa justice, notice it comes after you've tried all other channels for resolution.

[Journeyman]

I agree with the title of this thread: 300 watts is bullshit. As a professional musician since 1965, I've had many different sound systems, and the sound level of a system is not directly dependent on the power the amplifiers produce. I've had 30-watt guitar amps that were louder than 100-watt amps. The key to the overall sound pressure a system produces is in the efficiency of the combination of components. The wattage of an amplifier does not necessarily make for a loud or quiet system. I've had to transport and set up the large systems I used to own far too many times, and am now elderly enough to opt for a small system that I can set up in a half-hour, and I can carry each speaker in one hand. I use a stereo mixer/amplifier, 200 watts per side, driving four sealed (unvented)cabinets that each contain an 8-inch woofer and a 4"x6" horn for the highs. 8" speakers don't push the amount of air as the normal 15" woofers found in most PA cabinets. The 8s sound loud only if you're pretty close. The big problem we're dealing with is a lack of social skills between neighbors. I get hired to play return dates at clubs because I pay close attention to what's going on at the tables and the bar. If I see people leaning across the table to hear the conversation they're trying to carry on, then the music's too damn loud, and I turn it down accordingly. No one has to tell me to do so, and I've upset more than one musician in my bands by telling them that they have to turn down or lose further bookings. Experienced musicians know that volume and distortion hides badly played music. The bottom line is this: all amplifiers have volume controls. Know which way to turn it. 300 watts is no way to determine the volume of a system. The only way to monitor that is with a sound meter that gives a reliable readout at a standardized distance from the speakers. All police departments have them, and so should the Rangers. Years and years ago, I used have my living-room recording sessions interrupted by a knock at the door, and there would be an officer with a little black meter in his hand, saying that I had to turn it down. I learned. And over the years I learned the social skills to keep my neighbors happy and to keep me working as a musician. I do plan to have my system set up in 2006, inside a fairly large tensile structure, with all four speakers facing the center. The volume knobs will never be turned up over the limit I set for being a good neighbor. The music will be ambient. I expect no complaints. I like to sleep, too. So, Ranger Genius, you need to find a source of decible meters, and get BMORG to spring for a limited supply of them for you mediators to use to keep the peace. When you show the readout to overly loud sound engineers, they can't argue with you. There should be "silent" zones where no sound systems are allowed, there should be "ambient" zones where people can converse over the music comfortably, and there should be the "loud" zones. Each zone should have a predetermined decible limit, and the "loud" zones should be out by the fence beyond playa art, with speakers facing the forbidden zone. The roving sound barges should comply with whatever zone they happen to be in. That's my opinion, anyway, and we all know what opinions are like. BTW, jackless speaker cables make good nooses and whips. But I'm not into that. Instead of more rules, we just need to be sensitive to others' sensitivities.

[Journeyman]

As an addendum to the ideas I expressed above, if sound level zones are established, they should be somewhat flexible according to what time of day or night it is. Loud zones might lower their volume to an acceptable decible level after, say 1 or 2am. Ambient zones could cut their volume in half, and focus on playing sleep-inducing music. In no way do I suggest that any of these ideas become established rules, but I do suggest that the ideas expressed here and above come into the consideration of all sound operators. It's simply a matter of showing respect for all our fellow participants. It would certainly bring a greater appreciation for our art by making it more of a gift for the masses.

[Isotopia]

So, Ranger Genius, you need to find a source of decible meters, and get BMORG to spring for a limited supply of them for you mediators to use to keep the peace. When you show the readout to overly loud sound engineers, they can't argue with you. There should be "silent" zones where no sound systems are allowed, there should be "ambient" zones where people can converse over the music comfortably, and there should be the "loud" zones. Each zone should have a predetermined decible limit, and the "loud" zones should be out by the fence beyond playa art, with speakers facing the forbidden zone. The roving sound barges should comply with whatever zone they happen to be in. That's my opinion, anyway, and we all know what opinions are like. BTW, jackless speaker cables make good nooses and whips. But I'm not into that. Instead of more rules, we just need to be sensitive to others' sensitivities.

Some interesting ideas. Too bad that like most they come in the form of 'you folks should do X, Y or Z"

I'd ask the poster what the hell he's going to do to make changes to a situation he doesn't like rather than passing it on to other volunteers.

[dragonfly Jafe]

Here is one possibility;

NRS 203.010 Breach of peace. Every person who shall maliciously and willfully disturb the peace or quiet of any neighborhood or person or family by loud or unusual noises, or by tumultuous and offensive conduct, threatening, traducing, quarreling, challenging to fight, or fighting, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

The BLM pages appear to be down, so I don't know if they have a "Breach of Peace" statute, but I would hope that given a SPL meter, one could approach a LEO and file a complaint. After all, all laws federal, state, and local apply....

...by definition any camp that is outside of the LSSC zone has agreed to comply with the "300 watt" rule, which if it ever got to court might make for some mighty boring and confusing testimony, but there are standards for max. noise level in "residential" areas, and given some skilled expert witnesses I think the offending camp would find it difficult to defend their behaviour.

Of course, the real threat to the offending camp would usually be having a bunch of LEO's peeking and noising about in the course of performing their duties...something most camps would not enjoy

[diane o'thirst]

I think this might be a good place to revive the "Promenade" idea...See the topic "West-planade?" for more details...

Or if you'd rather not go hunting, here it is in a nutshell:

The rave/dance/thumpathumpa camps seem to be taking over the Esplanade, which is putting the squeeze on camps that would rather pursue quieter modus operandi: acoustic (limited drums) music, meditational arts, massage, bodypainting, et alia.

The plan was for the quieter, more ambient camps to abandon the Esplanade, form a coalition of sorts and claim the back street of the city, possibly leveraging the ORG to restrict or ban art car/sound barge traffic once the event is underway and leave it for latecoming campers migrating to their campsites, bike and foot traffic. The advantages is that everyone who enters Black Rock City would know where to go if they want to do yoga, mendhi, chanting, massage, tea ceremonies, and so on. The other benefit would be easier logistics: you don't have to scrabble through the city to get your camp set up, and would know minute-to-minute what the exodus was doing and could plan your own exeunt better. The only real downside is that there's no Playa frontage for art installations, but we can maybe utilize the little-used walk-in camping real estate for that; also, since the prevailing winds tend to come from the southwest, the Promenade would get hit with whatever weather descends on the Playa.

[philosopher]

I wound up camping a little ways down from a rave camp on my first burn and--what did I know?--imprinted on techno and Johnny Cash as the soundtrack of Burning Man.

I've talked to and been mystified by a lot of people who are bothered by noise, but if you renounce your attachment to sleep, noise irritation lightens up quickly. My principle from the beginning has been that if I can be awake, I should be awake and out there having experiences.

Obviously if you have created Serenity Camp or something like that, you'd be sorely tested if Misogyny Rap Camp set up close by. You'd probably want to go to the Post Office and have them issue an eviction notice (Form h49xrfh6-sk77eb9g, Rev. 43) or a demand to report for punishment (Form VF455-uhjn-97bc4).