New Nevada law: PERMITS needed to fire-spin???

[neoninsanity]

I read a news article that mentioned a new law in Nevada which states that all fire performers must apply & pay for a permit.
Link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45806369/

Here is a link so you can read NV A.B. 304 in full:
http://www.mygov365.com/legislation/vie ... /versions/

Furthermore, from what I saw on the permit application itself (link below), you have to meet the following criteria in order to receive a permit:

-be at least 21 years old
-have no prior felonies in any state
- have no prior certification of addiction to alcohol, narcotics, or dangerous drugs

Link to permit application: http://fire.state.nv.us/Files/Licensing ... 072011.doc

The group who helped pass this new law, Controlled Burn, seems to think this is all just dandy:
http://controlledburnreno.com/?p=1429

I think it's terrible.

What about all the younger fire-spinnners? And just because someone has a prior felony, does that mean they should be stripped of their access to/enjoyment of a beautiful art form?

So what does everyone think about this? Any new information or ideas would be much appreciated!

[lemur]

this wont alter any burners experience while on the playa

[moonrise]

There are eplayans from controlled burn. It would be good to hear what they have to say about it.

In the meantime, just a few thoughts I have...

The age thing is easy to contend with, just get an adult to watch you bla bla bla.

I wonder, are/were there any controlledburn fire performers with prior felonies in any state?
Did any controlledburn fire performers have prior certification of addiction to alcohol, narcotics, or dangerous drugs?
If yes, I bet they're thrilled to death!

At the burn, on the playa, I was handed a "lit" flaming, spinning beginer thing (I don't know what it's called) and I spun it and had fun, re-fueled it many many times
and re-lit and spun it many many times, in front of people! Will that now be illegal if I don't jump through flaming hoops to register as a fire performer? If so, what a shame.

I make mindblowing Flambes, good thing they're NOT a fire performance, they're just food preparation, phew, dodged a gubbermint bullet right there, yes I did, whew!

[moonrise]

Oh, I just read Piney's post about the kids spinning, I hope age 12 and up covered all of the kids. (I think it should be as soon as they can walk and up!!) Gubbermint

[Simon of the Playa]

in a Poifect world, everyone can spin fire....

[jkisha]

Interesting that Nevada would think that fire spinning needs to be more regulated than owning a gun.

[Bob]

Obviously you haven't witnessed two LLC board members setting each other on fire.

[Shambala]

Maybe this will be law enforcement's new obsession this year, and they will leave the underage drinkers and stoners alone. (hey, is that fire I see in your pocket?)

To Protect and Douce.....

[Bob]

I've read this has hit Vegas right in the vulva, Semi-Nude Fire Dancer being the fallback for those who can't cut it as Showgirl in adolescent extracurricular vocational programs.

There's always stripping.

[pinemom]

Well hello there.....

I see this made it over here after our dear,nice guy, Smokey got chewed up and spat out. Poor fella!

For anyone wondering, No, this really doesnt bother anyone spinning fire at Burningman festival. (Unless BM LLC makes it a rule,which it hasnt.)

For all you's out there that think Controlled Burn(my Fire Conclave) did this? Please take a step back and get informed.
We have had to have a Regulated Fire Marshall card, to spin in large public venues for almost a decade!!! I kid you not!
The Nevada Fire Marshall Imposed this against us so many years ago, Im not even sure when the exact date WAS??? Its just ALWAYS been that way. The only fight That Controlled Burn did do was to fight for our Children who spin with us. We have had in the past our own flesh n blood children, who can out spin the crap out of us, spinning with us legally with no Fire Marshal card, as it was unsaid, that if the parent was there with a FM card we were good. Then...Sparks, Nv got a brand new Fire Marshal from another state??? We had a gig, all permitted etc....they had never seen Fire tools and wanted to put that into our inspection process as well(all new to us,&%@#$)!
Well we all layed our tools down for her to inspect and when the kids layed theirs down along with all ours...she said WHAT? No Kids...we said um ya! These Our KIDS not just kids we grabbed on the side of the road here, these are professionally trained kids. So thus far started our war against Sparks, NV. We dont spin there hardly anymore because of the uphill hell they put us through. And because they wont even entertain the kids performing, at all.
So what we got was a formal law that gives our children a way to still be there (in some shows) some they just wont and we cant do anything about it.

Please read through the post on CB's website. Its the only way to get the whole story.

And understand that Controlled Burn is only attempting to keep Fire performance a legal thing, not like most of the rest of the Country, hiding in back alleys,Rooftops or warehouses to enjoy their art! Thats not fair. So we made sure WE (our families) will ALWAYS be able to spin legally. Dont like it? Dont move to NV.

again the link to the real info: http://controlledburnreno.com/?p=1429

We have more rights here to spin fire then most states! Dont forget that one!

[Bob]

Tx. As long as at least one person has credible information in the first page of replies, it's all good.

[jkisha]

That new law and Burinign Man just got a mention on the Rachel Maddow Show. Some pretty good visuals, but if the law won't effect BM, they might have gotten the facts wrong.

[Marscrumbs]

Other than the usual not being a felon,adult, drug user stuff, the permit requires you must speak English to spin fire and not much else than pay $27.

Can you say,

"Fire." or "Help, I'm on fire! Please put me out!"

[mdmf007]

Sounds like the state is merely trying to bring a modicum of safety to the art. I am all for smaller government, but at one point anyone could be a pyrotechnician then people started blowing their hands off. Now you need a safety course to get a license... theres an evolution to all things.

[graidawg]

fire safety in england...


"dude you're on fire"


although we do try to stand at least 2 feet from non performers (if ther's room)

[JennyH]

The state of Nevada’s Fire Marshal’s office has enforced the NFPA 160 rules for at least 10 years. The Nevada interpretation of this would only allow performers over 21. The state Fire Marshal’s office was going to try to officially pass this age restriction into law, until Controlled Burn stepped up to fight them on this. The new law allows for apprentice fire performers 18-21. The original draft of the new bill asked for apprentice performers 12 -21 to be allowed to perform. In the course of the process, several city fire marshal and other fire fighting professionals came to testify against this bill. The age was raised to 18. Although this is not optimal for us, this still allows a greater number of fire performers than the previous law and it has opened the door for further negotiations.

Controlled Burn has many performing members who are under 18. We used to try to “fly under the radar” and let our kids perform at gigs. As the popularity of fire performance grew in Reno, more fire department regulation came along with it. Fire marshals started checking performers for Cards and performers insurance. Permits were required. In order to keep performing, the group was forced to either quit or comply. Many of our young and talented performers were no longer able to spin fire at permitted venues.

Rather than just lying down and quitting, Controlled Burn chose to fight for their younger performers. It was a long process and the gains were minimal, but there were gains, nonetheless. The group will continue to fight to allow for young performers in the next legislative session.

Controlled Burn did not try to change restrictions for felons, or those with prior certification of addiction to drugs, narcotics, and/or alcohol. You have to pick your battles and these were not pursued.

You only have to have a Fire Marshal card in Nevada if you are spinning fire in a permitted venue. If you are on private property, you do not need a card or a permit. You could be a drunk, 15 year old crack head felon and, as long as no one complains, you can spin fire.

YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO HAVE A FIRE MARSHAL’S CARD FOR BURNING MAN.

[BlackRockCityPimp]

According to the Burningman guides all local, state, and federal laws are enforced at Burningman. After checking with an ACTUAL lawyer it seems that this law must be complied with to avoid misdemeanor charges. Basically the LAWYER said you can get arrested for this. Unless the Burningman org gets a special exception from this state law and makes it public one should assume that the law WILL be enforced as stated in the Burningman guides.

[Ugly Dougly]

Perhaps we can skate the definitions. I mean, what's a performer? Paid professional before an audience or some kid playing with fire?

[trilobyte]

The laws are enforced, and as a private event permits are not required for performers.

[pinemom]

plus I imagine you wouldnt get hand cuffed and arrested, it would be a Ticket issued????? ( Im totally guessing here!) As they have not actually announced what kind of level law your breaking for such action.

I will take this question back over to CB and see if We can find out what kind of level law we(BM community), would be breaking???

Like is it comparable to 1.A DUI or 2. Not wearing a bike helmet while riding a bike?????? 2 so totally different infractions against the law.... equaling 2 TOTALLY different outcomes!


because Piney just wants to know!

[pinemom]

Misdemeanor violation
"Any person who knowingly violates any of those laws or regulations is guilty of a misdemeanor." (NRS 477.250) Penalties would vary, depending on many factors including your past record, etc.



Thats what i got from a educated source.

[JennyH]

THIS SHOULD PUT AN END TO THIS TOPIC ONCE AND FOR ALL.....

I just got off the phone with Susan Riolo. She is the Licensing Program Officer from the Nevada State Fire Marshal's office. I asked if they would be enforcing the new Nevada Fire Performer law at Burning Man. The answer is "NO - IT IS FEDERAL LAND AND IT IS NOT IN THEIR JURISDICTION."
So, again
THERE IS NO PERMIT OR LICENSE REQUIRED TO SPIN FIRE AT BURNINGMAN

[pinemom]

YAY!

[lemur]

i guess my firm clear answer as the first post means nothing and we have again come full circle.


i tells ya,.. i shoulda posted a source with it.


'fricken larry harvey himself says this'

'crimson rose says it!!'

'jesus christ said it!!'

[oneeyeddick]

Any overzealous LEO can issue you a citation for whatever you are doing if he chooses to do so regardless of who says what if you are breaking a law or in his perspective.

The key to not getting a ticket at Burning Man while spinning fire is to not run directly at said officer with flaming balls in a threatening manner.

[lemur]

dont forget, if a horrible accident causes your balls to be on fire any officer at burning man will be more than willing to help you.

[JennyH]

Yep - Full circle.
Now we can get on with worrying about something else. Will there be dust this year??? What's up with the ticket lottery??? Whatever...................

[BlackRockCityPimp]

Misdemeanor violation
"Any person who knowingly violates any of those laws or regulations is guilty of a misdemeanor." (NRS 477.250) Penalties would vary, depending on many factors including your past record, etc.



Thats what i got from a educated source.

This is true, criminal case of the misdemeanor variety. I talked with an ACTUAL lawyer in NEVADA and was advised that contrary to legal advice being given here this is an actual law. The lawyer also advised that the people posting here about exemptions via permit and phone calls that are heresay will not stop an officer from either writing an expensive citation or arresting you.

I email 3 different Borg addresses and have not recieved ANY confirmation as to the exemption from this law.

This thread makes me wonder exactly how many local laws we really are exempt from on the playa if any. According to the Burningman guides ALL laws have to be followed yet we all know many are ignored by participants and many LEOs are too busy busting druggies to care about the small stuff. My only real concern is if this is a way for local govt to try to tax people and increase revenue via permit fees and citation fines.

I plan on contacting lawyers for burners to see if they can have someone come by to clarify what I have been told.

[oneeyeddick]

they won't tell you anything at all

[The CO]

BRCPimp-

Are you part of a performance group that is auditioning to be in the great circle? Because even they don't get permits for the burn.

I'd love to see that- fire marshals attempting to inspect tools and permits for 1400+ people on burn night.

As stated above by members of CB, this is nothing new. And TTITD will keep going like it has been.

*edited to add-

Sounds like the state is merely trying to bring a modicum of safety to the art.

MDMF, this kind of permitting has little to do with safety in that context-The permit "test" doesn't require you to prove any knowledge of fire performance safety, and does not train you in such*. It does help clarify the chain of liability if there is an accident (venue hires non-permitted spinner, it's the venues fault for not following regs), and brings in some cash to the state.

By way of an example: I'm a felon. So's my wife. My kids are all under 21. None of us could get a permit. And yet, we run a successful fire conclave, perform at the burn and in defaultia, and I'll bet you dollars to donnerparty that my kids know more about fire performance safety than the person denying us a permit in NV.

*To my knowledge. Things may have changed.