So what's the deal on this eplaya summit?

[aforceforgood]

Whoops, dur, I meant to post the conference call info here too and forgot-

I meant to come straight here and report on it too, but my A.D.D. brain had other ideas, and I also was just kind of enjoying the happiness and peace I had afterwards, and didn't feel like putting my thoughts down immediately onto electronic paper.

But in brief- the web team, or ETF (Eplaya Task Force), are some very cool people who through a series of missteps (which are much easier to see with 20/20 hindsight) in implementing the new BBS have been perceived as overly controlling/indifferent creators of the new BBS. That's not what I saw however. I initially requested just to be able to listen in on the meeting, and I would forward on any notes, questions or suggestions I had to Sparky or Technopatra via email, thinking it would be counter-productive to have a gazillion people chiming in, not leaving time for any actual work or progress. They went ahead and set up a conference call of their own accord, and welcomed and actively requested our (conference callers and non-ETF members) opinions on all topics discussed at the meeting.

Rest assured you WILL be seeing fixes and features you've asked for in the coming weeks, time permitting in their VOLUNTEER schedules... the search function's default setting will be changed to return search results in posts rather than threads, skins (!!yay) are being worked on and will be available soon, though probably not that soon, being somewhat tricky... the much-debated PLONKER is I think still being debated, but I'm sure we'll see it in some form, at the very least, you'll soon be able to mark threads you want to ignore, maybe users as well, and it was generally agreed that making public the stats on those plonked would be a bad thing.

Moderators will have minimal responsibilities, basically moving threads to more appropriate folders (of which there will be less of!) and pming those abusing the boards, posting nonsense or excessively posting or generally being a nuisance.

Ok, enough for now. If you have any suggestions, brilliant ideas about plonker design (or function- you don't have to be a coder), comments, etc, you can post them in feature requests, bugs and problems (the ETF watches those areas closely) or eplaya and you, or just post them here and I'll forward them on to technopatra and the ETF.

[Bob]

<pre> > Britton (?)</pre>

Britton

[aforceforgood]

<pre> > Britton (?)</pre>

Britton

Cool.

???

[Kinetic II]

I didn't know if I got his name right so I cautiously put the name out there. My notes are kind of a mess but that's a name I wrote down and I can remember the face...but the spelling I had to just take a shot at.

And Force, thanks for posting the notes!

[Tiara]

I regret that I wasn't able to call in last night. Thanks to all who participated, and especially to those who have relayed their notes/thoughts/etc here afterwards. Sounds like the meeting was a big step in the right direction.

Can someone who was there let us know whether the issue of marking posts as read/unread was discussed?

thanks again!

[III]

oh yeah - thanks for the notes, force!

[herself]

Nice notes, force. It sounds like the Eplaya Admin(s) did a good job w the meeting. Excellent. And Jim Mason's zoning hearing went splendidly as well! Everything is coming up roses today, eh?

hh

[technopatra]

Hey everyone, I want to thank everyone who showed up and participated in the meeting last night, either in corporeal, telephonic, or chat format. It was so cool to meet you!! I am still a glow with warm fuzzies as I think we're moving in a really, really good direction.

Tiara, we were really, really bummed that you didn't make, and we also sorely missed Emily, who forgot she'd had a previous engagement.

Spanky & I are going to be cobbling our notes together to give you guys a more coherent report on the happenings (not more coherent than force's notes, just more coherent than the scribblings we've got at the moment).

But I know you guys are concerned, so here are a couple of key points that will, I hope, create more confidence in what we ("we" meaning YOU and us) are doing here:

1 - we made a point of asking about everyone's experiences with, and reasons for coming to, the eplaya. I know this may seem obvious, but at this point we are trying to do away with our assumptions about what it is folks need from the eplaya. The most common response was intelligent discourse with other Burners, esp for those who are not located in the SF Bay Area.

2 - we are committed to improving communication with the eplayans on several levels - feature/design planning, testing, tech support, admin(flame) support. One way is to keep discussions about features, design and policies (guidelines, moderations etc), open via the boards, then take that feedback off to a workspace and tinker, then come back with demos/beta tests, and iterate as necessary before launching on the greater community. The other way is happening already - we're spending more time on the boards and actually becoming part of the community.

3 - after talking with the group, we all decided that we want as little "oversight" as necessary. Rather than starting with moderation, we are going to work on various aspects of the experience to reduce the instances that might require moderation:

a) OH's and newbies alike stepped up to collaborate on the Community Guidelines and a Netiquette 101 doc for newbies.

b) I have a big ole list, culled from various threads on this and the alt.playa, of requested improvements, that I'm handing over to the UE and design folks, Jamison, Haunani, & Britton. At the top of that list is revisions/reduction of the folder structure.

4 - There are several immediate changes that we want to make to the interface, e.g. optimization of the current graphics, to improve performance.

Ok there is plenty more, both in tasks and open questions, stay tuned for the full report. I encourage everyone to participate in this process as much they can, either by coming to a meeting (next one will be in early Nov, tbd) or continuing to talk with us here.

On a personal side note, I have been lurking mightily, and am looking forward to getting some of this work behind me so I can spend more time connecting from the heart rather than the admin head.

[Tiara]

I encourage everyone to participate in this process as much they can, either by coming to a meeting (next one will be in early Nov, tbd) or continuing to talk with us here.

Technopatra,

Please let us know as soon as the next meeting date is set. I'd like to make sure I keep my calendar free for the next meeting.

[Isotopia]

Was the topic of Trey's ass pic addressed?

[jamison]

Next meeting we should have audio on the webcast as well. I didn't know that there wasn't any audio, and just off camera the entire time was a box of spare computer gear I had brought for the org, including a mic. So Spanky's got one now. Yay!

[III]

tp -

thanks for the summary. i wasn't able to participate, because i'm an idiot when it comes to using chat room stuff.

my comments, or additions:

- it may be worth expanding that poll of what users are looking for to people outside of the room, both here on the board, and maybe more importantly to people not here, since they are the ones who you want to attract (maybe a poll through jackrabbit speaks? i vaguely remember sommething like that). fwiw - my desires match up with the stated concensus - i would like intelligent interaction with other creative people.

- i know the whole plonking issue got delved into pretty heavily. i'm not sure of the need for plonking, but i do think that some method of managing what you read, aside from having to mentally pick and choose every time you click a button, would go a long way. whether you call it subscriptions, or thread plonking, or thread preference selection, it would probably have avoided a lot of the issues we faced here.

- the feedback helps. i appreciate it a lot. i know it's unrealistic to expect immediate perfection, but until recently i felt (and this is my personal feeling, though others may share it) that i was being ignored, and that my input was neither desired nor appreciated, and that there was no intent to even acknowledge that the issues i felt were heard. getting feedback, even if it's just that you don't have time to address an issue, or that you feel your priorities should be in a different place, or that my desires conflict with your goals for the board, all make a difference in allowing me to feel like it's worth my while to try to be a part of this community.

[Kinetic II]

Was the topic of Trey's ass pic addressed?

Actually I don't think it was. PJ put in a comment about imbedded pix which was a clear reference to his cow pic, but it didn't get much discussion.

I'm sure it will come up later but I'd be more against the Pipa Toad than PJ's cow pix or Trey's ass pix. And it's not that I like cows or Trey's ass, I just feel that Pipa Toad is downright disgusting. (PJ did find one thing that's even worse, but I pray he doesn't post it over here!)

[Tiara]

caution: playful comment follows. No need for committee action to be taken on this suggestion.

I'd really like to have a digital curtain drawn over the pipa toad picture and its ilk. It could have a button that says "really disgusting picture--click here to be grossed out." That would make my eplaya experience a lot more harmonious, my lunches less eventful, and my dry cleaning bills lower.

[Badger]

Pipa Toad?

What am I missing here?

Should I be wearing my glasses more?

[Kinetic II]

Tiara brings up a very good point. Some of us view this from work on lunch or break, and having a flag or way to screen this stuff might be helpful. I don't want any kind of censorship, but having a warning flag would be nice. Right now I have to run eplaya in a 1 1/2 inch high window so I can fliter for content. I wish I didn't have to do that.

And Badger, if you search PJ's posts on H's board, you find something worse than the Pipa Toad. If your curious, you go look for it. I want NOTHING to do with it.

[precipitate]

> pipa toad

What, you mean you forgot [url=http://oldbbs.burningman.com/index.cgi?14@109.ChjkawJxgNy^22@.eedfd31/48]this[/url]?

> Some of us view this from work ... I wish I didn't have to do that.

Ahem. Sunshine and roses not ahead.

K, that's your problem, not the software's or the LLC's or the eplayans'.
As long as the images are legal I see no reason for guidelines or
technology to dictate how they're presented. You've found a method
of dealing with it: minimize the size of the window. You could also turn
off image loading by default in your browser and load things on demand.
But it should be your issue to deal with, not ours.

[DE FACTO]

You've found a method
of dealing with it: minimize the size of the window. You could also turn
off image loading by default in your browser and load things on demand.
But it should be your issue to deal with, not ours.

Sounds to me similar to semi-plonking.

[Kinetic II]

Ahem. Sunshine and roses not ahead.

Precip, you missed my point entirely. What I am looking for is a variation of what you just posted. A nice little disclaimer saying that the following picture or item might not be suitable for viewing in a work environment, or it might be disturbing. Or in your last post, a bit direct (which is good).

What on Earth is wrong with showing a little courtesy? This is something I saw in use on the old eplaya before I started posting over there, I've seen it used here. One can still post their picture, but they give the rest of us a chance to shrink screens or take precautionary measures...or in Tiara's case a quick hit on the scroll bar to slide past something so she can eat her lunch and keep it down.

I'm sure I will have plenty of backing on this. However this is where the eplaya task force is looking for ideas. If you think it stinks, speak up. If you like it, say so. I'm stepping back and listening instead of posting.

[Isotopia]

Cheeses H-bomb Christ.

That picture is just fucking W R O N G

[Tiara]

caution: playful comment follows. No need for committee action to be taken on this suggestion.

Didn't mean to stir things up and derail the thoughtful input in this thread. Thought my original disclaimer would be sufficient. Mea culpa.

I wasn't advocating censorship in any form.

[TestesInSac]

Precip, you missed my point entirely. What I am looking for is a variation of what you just posted. A nice little disclaimer saying that the following picture or item might not be suitable for viewing in a work environment, or it might be disturbing. Or in your last post, a bit direct (which is good).

I think you've missed Precip's point, which is essentially not having the board do work that the user should be doing. Burning Man itself is not "office friendly" viewing. Why should the BBS be?

I'm sure I will have plenty of backing on this. However this is where the eplaya task force is looking for ideas. If you think it stinks, speak up. If you like it, say so. I'm stepping back and listening instead of posting.

Now, it sounds as if you want the board to either censor things or enforce some set of rules for posting potentially objectionable content. Is that the sort of thing you want Burning Man to do, as well?

For the record, I view this board from work as well, and I see it as <b><u>my</b></u> responsibility to look over my shoulder to see that I don't get busted for it.

[DE FACTO]

let me rephrase: sounds like "personal" semi-plonking.

[nipples]

Hello.

First I'd like to say "thank you" to the volunteers & staff whom have worked on the Burningman web site & eplaya. It is very nice. I love it.

Next, my two cents on the eplaya:

First, it might occur that a "problem" of too many threads to sort through exists.. excepting; If & when people use only a few threads to communicate, those threads then hold more posts to sort through. Fewer threads under categories equals more posts within fewer threads. ie.. there will always be XYZ # of posts which are going to occur in any given day, regardless of if those posts are in the form of a new thread or within an old one. Keeping it within the THREAD theme helps (then simply do not open that thread), as does not having someone/several people whom feel they have to respond to every single thread, especially when having only critism to lend that conversations very existence. Whatever happened to not affecting anothers experience?

Second, I will likely stop coming to this bbs altogether if there is not a "plonk" option installed, for the very same reasons outlined above. Very few users fill up 90% of the posts. I could plonk four people, and have a very nice experience here every time I come, rather than have to wade through all sorts of BULLSHIT about how much Burningman sucks, or newbies suck, or how the "old playa" was better. There were weeks on the old playa when I'd leave because of negativity, but then it was mostly directed at the ORG & attendees, not as often at posters. Always though the same DISDAIN, CONTEMPT & RIDICULE. Now it is seemingly irrepairable, to my use, so long as on nearly each and every thread these same people step forward and take a shit on the floor. Seriously. And then they say they "care", or they "miss the old times". Yeah, the old times when they had chosen a different "enemy".. but now the "enemy" is the forum itself.. with several new ones conveiniently available.... Go for it! Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!

As for the "loss" of continuity... ie.. that the reader whom plonked ABC will not have the "benefit" of context to subsequent replies to ABC's dubious witicisms, , so what? Tough freaking SHIT. It's not lost to "history", just to THAT reader. But guess what?!!! Then I'll have had at LEAST 1,000 FEWER negative posts about how much this place sucks to read through in just 45 days. Are the ones objecting most strenuously to the "plonk" option those whom know they are behaving badly? Do they suspect they would be shouting inside a boot in their little freaking closet?! There are a few people on this site for quite some time now whom enjoy ripping into people everyday. Is it so they can be nice in a different world? Are we not worthy of your kindness, madam & master troll?

Maybe I should move on, perhaps I am a troll for being critical of another. Yes, yes I am. Definately. You are ALL ok, I am mistaken, of that I am quite certain. I apologize if I have offended anyone. Seriously. I must be looking at this incorrectly. I've actually become angry over this today, and got a headache, and am upset, and realized at bed-time meditation that this is entirely within my head to deal with. Anger is a warning sign that something is wrong. That is why it hurts. No one else to blame, eh. It is within MY head, no one elses, and again, i apologize for projecting it on others. Anger does NOT exist. If i see anything but LOVE, it is becasue I am LOOKING for something other than LOVE. Forgive me & move on. My bad. I have one post after this which I made earlier, but this is my swan song, eh.

I'm going to take a time-out & if I ever do come back, I'll have nicer tits. Promise.

[DE FACTO]

I will most likely stop coming here altogether if there is not a "plonk" option installed,

May I suggest that you check out this thread:

viewtopic.php?t=2178&start=15&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=

and place input to the debate ?

You bring up some points that may need to be hashed out with all that post there.

[Kinetic II]

Testes:
I was proposing adding my approach as a suggestion that people might want to follow. And it might be something we will want to add to a basic eplaya netiquette page should one be created in the future. It's not enforceable, it's not something expected, it would fall into the same area imho, as not using all caps, stuff like that. It's about showing a little bit of sensitivity so the max number of users can get the most out of the board.

You mentioned censorship. Personally, I don't have time nor have ANY desire to censor anything. I fully exploit my first amendment rights...and we'll leave it at that. I'm looking at this from another perspective. COPA: The Children's Online Protection Act. The ORG is under a legal obligation to comply with this law and others that are on the books. One sub discussion and worry inside the org is making sure this BBS complies with the law. It's not that they want to censor anything.... and I can see I'm on a slippery slope so let me say this. I AM JUST A VOLUNTEER, I DO NOT HAVE ANY CONNECTION TO THE ORG OR REPRESENT THEM IN ANY WAY. Ok, my point is they might have to restrict certain things in order to comply with the law. And they don't want to do that. One thing we can do to help them out so they don't have to get involved is flag stuff that is questionable. Questionable being in regards to the items spelled out in the law, and instead of posting it here we provide a link to it and keep it off the board. I don't know all the legal details, this may be a bad idea and I'm not thrilled with it either.Bbut I am simply looking for ways to protect the ORG so this board stays up and active for us to use. And we need ideas!

So there's no sinister motives, no drive to censor anyone or restrict an exchange of information. All I want are stable servers, a stable interface, some basic netiquette and guidelines (not rules), and have it all done with the community being behind it. If everyone knows how things work, moderators won't be needed, we'll police ourselves like we used to do. That's all there is to it. And now I'll get off the soap box, if anyone has questions for me about this long winded post, ask. Again, I'm just a volunteer, and we need more help. If you don't like my approach, come in and join us! Get your voice heard.

[blyslv]

(then simply do not open that thread), .

Yeah.

And simply do not pick the scab
And simply do not have another kernal of popcorn
And simply do not open another beer
And simply do not open that pornographic magazine you just found...

sheeesh!

[precipitate]

> It's about showing a little bit of sensitivity so the max number of users
> can get the most out of the board.

Um. It sounds to me that it's about superficially sanitizing the board to
make it safe for work for some users. And again, I don't think that's
the responsibility of the users of this community. This board isn't part
of your job. If it's not acceptable for you to be browsing at work (even
on your lunch break), then wait until you get home. Why is it that I need
to not post a picture of an amphibian or a catfish because it might gross
out your boss? Labeling it won't help you. Posting a link instead might,
but that (IMO) interrupts the flow and I'd prefer not to do it.

> restrict certain things in order to comply with the law.

And you'll notice that I said in my original post: "As long as the images
are legal I see no reason..."

I think we disagree on some fundamental level here, and that's OK.
Everything I've posted is my opinion -- and I hope that's clear from my
use of "I think" and "I see" -- and there's no reason anyone has to agree
to my opinion. I present it for consideration by the tech team as they go
forward, and for consideration by the entire community, who should then
go on and make their own damn decisions.

[aforceforgood]

Re; the pictures people don't want to see at work; here's a link to a free 213k exe prog that puts a little lightswitch up in the left hand corner of your screen, so that if your boss walks by or a coworker or whatever, you can just zip the pointer up hard left and click, and your screen goes black. Not a perfect solution, but hopefully that will help some. It's called lightswitch.

Oh, and I see the point about the plonker/being able to organize what you want to see. It won't stop me from pming or posting to newbies about why they're being plonked, so as long as it's not some critical mass that plonks someone right off the board by mass acclimation, (which, from what I heard at the summit is not what they're building) then that would be useful, though I don't know if I'll use it myself.

[TestesInSac]

You mentioned censorship. Personally, I don't have time nor have ANY desire to censor anything. I fully exploit my first amendment rights...and we'll leave it at that. I'm looking at this from another perspective. COPA: The Children's Online Protection Act. The ORG is under a legal obligation to comply with this law and others that are on the books.

Re COPA: IMO, this is a red herring. It's not being enforced and it likely never will besince there are very deep constitutional issues with it, and you seem to be up enough on things to know that. So, why introduce somthing that's likely to have no impact on content here?

And the signals you send are mixed at best. You say you don't want censorship, don't have time, yada. But then you post (specious) arguments for some level of censorship in the interest of preserving the board. And most of that, it seems to me, is so that you can comfortably view the eplaya at work without seeing asses or pipa toads.

This is a sensitive time for this board, <u>clarity and verity</u> are really important. 'Nuff said.