New requiement for porta pot contract

[Roundfoot]

Greetings from Oregon fellow burners,
This year i went to Playa info 4 days in a row to sign up to have my RV tanks pumped. Every time i went it was during the time frame published ( 11- 1 daily) and nobody from the porta pot company was ever there! I wonder how many other people had this experience. If we are to "leave no trace" which i wholeheartedly support, shouldn't the PP company be required to be available for, and provide enough of this very necessary service? Do they charge for this service? Is this included in our ticket price? Or is this service included in the gift economy? This was my 3rd burn but the first time i have had need of this service. As i was leaving on Tues. i noticed several large water spots ( hopefully only grey water ) where RV's had been parked. If we are to teach higher standards of personal responsibility then we should have the opportunity to choose right action. Thank you in advance for responding to this issue.

[III]

a) this page is for bugs and problems with the website, not the event itself.

b) the event organizers should probably be required to do a lot of things. banning whiney needy people in rv's should probably top the list. in the future, use the porta potties, and save your r.v. for emergencies. they've *never* been reliable about pumping them, and a little bit of research before hand could have told you that.

[Isotopia]

shouldn't the PP company be required to be available for, and provide enough of this very necessary service?

Probably no more than a requirement that anyone attending the event have secondary plans when their expecations go awry.

[Roundfoot]

b) the event organizers should probably be required to do a lot of things. banning whiney needy people in rv's should probably top the list. in the future, use the porta potties, and save your r.v. for emergencies. they've *never* been reliable about pumping them, and a little bit of research before hand could have told you that.[/quote]

Probably no more than a requirement that anyone attending the event have secondary plans when their expecations go awry.

III and Isotopia,
One night of reading your prolific posts was enlightening not to mention your avatars, if you are as important as you portray your selves to be then feel free to xfer my post to the proper channels. Which of the choices would you suggest?? Just in case you might open to learn, as a wheelchair user the porta potties are NOT a viable choice, but then you already knew that having engaged your brain before your oh so speedy judgment.
I am merely trying to seek a way to increase the awareness and love we have for each other as a family.
PS My back up plan has gotten me hrough 3 burns so far. Where has your vitriol gotten you??[/b]

[precipitate]

> as a wheelchair user the porta potties are NOT a viable choice,

Huh. That's funny. The handicapped-accessible one near me was nearly
always empty, and always clean. Or are you unable to use even one of
those? If so, I'd think your planning would include contingencies. What if
your RV had had a failure in the plumbing system?

It states very clearly in the Survival Guide that RV services are
as-you-can-get them, not part of your ticket price, you're responsible for
securing them, and that you should plan accordingly. The beginner's guide
and a couple of other places on the main web site also say this. If it was
really an issue for you, did you contact anyone before the event to ensure
that your health needs were met?

Field toilets are certainly a viable choice. A five gallon bucket and one of
those raised toilet seats that allow access to normal toilets are extremely
viable.

Oh, and the heading for this topic does say pretty clearly <b>ePlaya Forum
Index  -> ePlaya Feedback -> Bugs and Problems</b>. See, it's even at
the top of the page. Everyone fucks up once in a while. Your mistake was
indicated to you pretty concisely so that you could rectify it yourself.

> If we are to teach higher standards of personal responsibility then we
> should have the opportunity to choose right action.

Right action involves planning for a week in the desert with no services,
which is pretty much what the Survival Guide says.

[olivia]

it's a shame you weren't told to do the one thing that will get your RV pumped on the playa - find the RV pumping truck on the street and arrange it with the driver. they're very friendly and you'll get serviced for sure. playa info usually can radio the truck to give you a fair indication of where they are at any given time between those hours.

this method may not be practical if you're in a wheelchair, but the chances of getting your RV pumped though playa info are extremely slim.

hope your luck is better next year :)

[Isotopia]

Just in case you might open to learn, as a wheelchair user the porta potties are NOT a viable choice, but then you already knew that having engaged your brain before your oh so speedy judgment.

Roundfoot, please, fuck your guilt trip bullshit. Handicapped or not.

If your concerns were specific to finding toilet facilities to meet special needs of either yourself or those in your group then you might have mentioned that prior to coming off as just another whiney fuck seeking pampering or privelage because of your RV status and an inability shit along with the rest of us playa folk because that's sure how your initial post came across.

Actually, seems to me in almost every instance that I can think of in my self-important, super special existence on the er, I mean on my playa that I can remember, making a note to gate/greeters/dmv/rangers/playa info or damn near anywhere else semi officious to the event would have immediately put you at or near the top of the list to notify the toilet persons stop by your camp and take care of your needs which I believe are unique and do warrant special consideration - especially since the number of handicapped facilities *did* seem limited this year.

[spanky]

I moved this topic to 2003 Experiences, a more appropriate place for this very important discussion. I just wish everyone we're so aggro. What happened to plain old being kind to and understanding of each other? Yikes!

[jaywalker]

I just wish everyone we're so aggro.

Exactly. The world needs to be more aggro! Down with the take over of dirty hippy glow-stick waving "love everyone. We are one big commune family" vibe that seems prevalent!!

aggro is as aggro does!!!!!

oh...what's this topic about?

jaywalker
jackass and neck nibbler

[Jordan 10-E]

I just wish everyone we're so aggro. What happened to plain old being kind to and understanding of each other? Yikes!

Duh Spanky you are sooooooo stupid for wondering where being kind and respectful to each other went. JK, I hope you see the sarcasm in that.

Some people on here obviously can't EVER seem to be respectful or talk about ANYTHING on a decent level. That is one reason I think messageboards can be damaging to a community. Let's all hide behind our computers and be asses.

III - You sound sound like the one whining to me. Roundfoot has a legitmate complaint. You have a stick up your ass.

Isotopia - Your just sound like an inconsiderate fuck with nothing productive to say about this subject. Sure you may have tried to give some suggestions about this issue but you might want to rethink how you say it. There is no need to be a cock about it.

Precipitate - Though you had some suggestions they also were given in a way that makes me wonder how "knowledgable' and wonderful you think you really are.

Yes it says those things in the literature that you all mentioned, but it seems Roundfoot was being proactive about how he could reslove his need. If there is a sign at Playa Info that says one way to contact the pumper people is to be there between certain hours and he does that 4 days in a row and they weren't there like they said they would be then he has a totally legit reason to complain. 4 out of 4 times. I don't care what it says in the literature otherwise. As for flagging down the RV pumper, did you ever see them? I didn't. Probably be even more difficult in a wheelchair. Plus, just because he had an RV and you didn't doesn't mean you are any better than him. You sound jeleous to me. Oh, but I forget, you are probably too hardcore to ever consider an RV.

Those of you that are repeatedly climbing on your high horse and belittling people on this board should rethink your approach. There was no need to be that way. It sure doesn't help anyone. It only gives you personally some sort of sadistic satisfaction and ego boost. Why not be a little more constructive than being hypocrites and thorns in the side of the community we are trying to foster? Have some respect, otherwise you deserve none for yourself. That may be fine for you, but you reflect badly on the whole community when you act like high and mighty assholes. You all sound like the "whiney fucks" to me.

[Badger]

but you reflect badly on the whole community when you act like high and mighty assholes.

You all sound like the whiney fucks to me.

Physician, heal thyself.

[jaywalker]

Let's all hide behind our computers and be asses.

If I put up my picture, would I still be hiding, or would that suffice?

[quote} Why not be a little more constructive than being hypocrits and thorns in the side of the community we are trying to foster? Have some fucking respect, otherwise you deserve none for yourself. That may be fine for you, but you reflect badly on the whole community when you act like high and mighty assholes. [/quote]

Hippy.
I thought you were gonna stay aggro, but ya had to bring up the "we are fostering" wet blanket.

ptlbptlbptlbptlb

oh yeah, just to keep you happy I'll abuse the emoticon things


jaywalker
not anonymous to many folks

[Jordan 10-E]

Last time I checked I wasn't a hippy, but if you view all people that try to keep the "aggro" factor down as hippies, then I guess I am. I just don't think it is necessary to be so rude to each other. On the other hand, like I said, if you don't have any respect for others, you don't deserve it yourself. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you all can be cool people, it just is upsetting to witness calous disregard for other people's feelings or situations. It reminds me of the person(s) that took my bike this year. I definately do not believe that all people that go to Burning Man are wonderful, fun loving, peaceful people (The wool is not that far over my eyes), but I like the idea that we can try to be. At least for a little while.

Peace

[Kinetic]

I've read this thread through and instead of bringing out my triple mount flame throwers, I'll offer a friendly review of the first timer's guide....

Q: What is the policy with regard to Recreational Vehicles (RV's)?
A: RV's are fine. Remember, this is wilderness camping and there are no hookups. Do not discharge gray water or sewage. RV servicing logistics may differ from last year. Stay tuned for details.

The second item of interest:
Q. What kind of facilities do you provide for those in a wheelchair?
A. We are wheelchair friendly, and provide several wheelchair accessible bathrooms. Additionally, you can contact wheelchairs(at)burningman(dot)com with questions.

My comments are:
Anyone coming to BM is expected to prepare for the event. That means reading the guides, doing research, etc. The survival and first timer's guides are required reading. From the first quote about, RV Servicing may differ from last year. That's the PC way of saying things get fucked up on playa time, have a backup plan.

Then I go to item #2....since this is an event held on public land the BMORG is expected to make a reasonable effort...(don't go legal and debate this part) to comply with the Americans with Disabilities Act. I suspect that's why the wheelchair address was set up. Did you contact them? As for relying on Playa Info, excluding FLUX and a few others there were a handful of fuckwits over there this year that didn't give a damn about anybody. Again, if you go in prepared with research, you would have likely caught this. And my hunch is the ORG would have helped you get a truck over to pump you out and do a few other things to enhance your experience. If you did e-mail them, great! Tell us how it went and if they did help. If you didn't, then a failure to plan on your part is not going to be my major problem on the playa. I'll gift stuff to help you but I won't be able to save you from your jam.

I know this is long but I'm simply curious if you really did your research and dug into this. Yours is the first complaint I heard about portapotties, in particular the supplemental RV pumping.

And at the end of the day, pumping, no pumping, if you read the ticket and the guides as the ORG requests, you would have seen the potential for this and planned accordingly. Shit happens, especially on the playa. (Pun not intended!)

[unjonharley]

Round foot, You are just another poor fool that went to playa info. The only thing they used for is disinfo. Those pump trucks you were looking for were cruiseing the streets. I don't pull my disabled card every time some thing is not my way. Just like any camper should know. I knew I was going into a rough area to camp. I plan everything out in detail. then I plan for the worse case. Used my own port=a-pot throuhg the holding tank on my chair and dumped it the handy-cap pot.

[TheMuse]

I agree with Jordan. Lets not be rude bastards... it goes against the spirit of Burning Man. Even if you disagree with someone's opinion there is no reason to reply to posts with condescending holier-than-thou retorts.

[Jordan 10-E]

Thank you Kinetic. That seems like a much more constructive way of discussing the issue, honest yet considerate. Anyway, I said my piece and don't really need to be in this discussion anymore at this time since most of the points have been brought up about the dynamics of RV pumping at Burning Man. I just jumped in because of some of the things I read rubbed me the wrong way and thought something needed to be said. If we can keep the meaness down it would make the eplaya a lot more enjoyable place to be.

[Kinetic]

Playa Info: the most worthless waste of Center Camp space there is in BRC.

People slam the Rangers but they are the only group that didn't bullshit me this year or last. They have my respect, hell I want to join them next year as I was so impressed.

Flux worked at Playa Info, and he was an exception to calling almost all the others ultimate fuckwits.

[Stormy]

Now children this does seem to be an extra grumpy thread. What's the matter, not getting enough nookie? Or quality nookie, or whatever?

Well for those who think getting around BM in a wheel chair is easy, I'd be glad to help hobble you for a week and then you can report back to us with how easy or not it was to get by. Perhaps our experienced Burners would even care to write a wheel chair survival guide?

[Kinetic]

[quote="Stormy"]Now children this does seem to be an extra grumpy thread. What's the matter, not getting enough nookie? Or quality nookie, or whatever?quote]

Quality and quantity are suddenly not a problem, my negativity comes from the fact the first of Sprint's outsourcing announcements began today with 750 people being farmed out to IBM & EDS. EDS sucks.

In the next 45 days I learn if my position gets the same treatment. And by the end of 03 the entire company will have been reorg'd 3 times in one year.

I seriously need to find worthwhile work but the money and lifestyle it provides are addicting as hell. Oh well, it's gotta end someday.

As for my post....I'd really like to know if he contacted the org and what the reax was.

[unjonharley]

Hey Stormy, I wouldn' wish my chair on anyone. It's not the point here. Point is, he was not prepared. if I couldn't do some thing. I simpley asked the next person. Neat bunch of follks there aat BM. At least this time I didn't have to have some one wipe my ass. That could get a little dicey.

[DogBoy]

Jordan 10-E, I will keep this short; your earlier post covered most everything I could say & did so very well. Kudos.

III, Precipitate, & Isotopia, WTF? Are any of you in a wheelchair? Whether or not you are, I really don't understand the anger & attitude in your posts. Roundfoots initial post was well presented, fairly polite, & addressed a very important issue. Even if you did not see it that way, I really cannot fathom why you were so hostile. Isn't eplaya here for disscussion of problems? Most every other post of yours I have read has been useful in it's thread, but what I read here has changed my impression of you.

I will happily provide wheelchairs & gaffers tape in 04 for anyone that wants to try altering their perspective. Hell, just tape your legs together & try using the toilet at your house. Then realize what that would be like in BRC.

Roundfoot, good to "hear" your voice. See you at OCF.

[Badger]

Roundfoots initial post was well presented, fairly polite, & addressed a very important issue.

Yeah but if you re-read the initial post I don't think anywhere does s/he note the circumstances involving special needs or a wheelchair. Saying so would have changed the entire dynamic of the post and certainly garnered more than a few chagrined folks - myself included - who could absolutely relate to the frustration this person was having to deal with. Further, it probably would have gone on to further illuminate a real problem that was personally identified to me (as a Ranger) several times. Namely, that there were more than a few people on the playa who were in need of special JOTS toilets or access to something reasonably close to where they were parked/camped. Instead s/he comes off as someone pissed off because he couldn't get the holding tank of the RV pumped down which a good number of us have seen in the past by lame fucks rolling into the playa in their RVs who make no plans on how to get tanks dumped, what to do IF they don't get flushed and then whine because their caccooned little existence on the playa was interrupted because of THEIR lack of planning. Christ, some of these folks have actually dumped on the playa and relocated their RVs to a new camping spot only to start the cycle anew. Only after Trey's critical albeit correct take (about unpreparedness and such) did Roundfoot sarcastically pull out the wheelchair card which was lame.[/quote]

[Badger]

a

[DogBoy]

I can't find the part of the the post that reads so pissed off. Roundfoot starts off "greetings", doesn't call anyone names, states his problem, asks some legitamite (I think) questions, and seeks some input. Admittedly there is no mention of the wheelchair in that first post (see name comment below), but frankly, the responses seem to get much ruder after he informed us of that fact.

I think the name Roundfoot would imply that one is in a wheelchair (great pun), but I actually know the man from a different event, so I already made that connection. But on those same lines, having actually met him, he is a great guy & I will admit I got miffed when I read several rude posts directed at him.

Finally, I am no fan of RV's, but I know a whole host of reasons to have one out there. I also know some of the most involved people in BRC sleep in them: couple of pyrotechs I know, some dude named Larry H. (nice hat). Just because you want (or medically need) to stay in one does not make you any less of a participant or spectator. Only your attitude can do that.

[Stormy]

Badger, I duly note your suggestion that Roundfoot would have gotten a better response if he had been upfront about why the RV situation was so difficult. On the hand, I think our prejudices are showing here. Yes, there are assholes who camp in RVs. Guess what, there are assholes who camp in tents. If someone can afford an RV, then hey, good for them. There are people who are at BM for weeks and stay in shacks. Five to seven days in a tent is doable. Ten to 20 or more days kind of sucks. Also this year had decent weather. There have been years the weather was so miserable between hiding from dust storms and hail storms, I considered going home early. Sorry uh, end of lecture and thread drift.

[Badger]

On the hand, I think our prejudices are showing here.

I'll own up to that one Stormy.

Disagreement is a consequence of people being different in their perceptions and often their experiences. Unfortuantely, my experiences with RVs on the playa have often enough been negative punctuated with the occasional neutral encounter. Can't think of one positive one to date. So, yeah, you're totally correct and my take is a somewhat slanted one.

[Flux]

I realize that RVs are somewhat frowned upon, and often for good reason. To balance that out, here are a few positives about RVs from my personal experience.

1. I have a good friend whose health is pretty poor. She's diabetic, has had a kidney transplant, and has essentially died and been revived a number of times. She's been to BMan twice, both times in a motor home. Both times her health has suffered, but she's been a real trooper. Always brought everything she needed and then some.

2. One of my campmates this year lives in an RV. She and her kids are living on the road for a time. They decided four days before the event to come to Burning Man. Not only were they totally self-sufficient, but they brought all kinds of cool art supplies that the kids enjoyed all week, and were full participants in the life of KidsVille.

3. Another KidsVillian had pneumonia right before the event, but neither he nor his dad wanted to miss Burning Man. He needed the RV for his health, so that he could stay in a more controlled environment when he needed to. He got out when he could and seemed to have a great time participating with the other kids. When my son got a bit overheated and dehydrated one day, this camper and his father were kind enough to invite him in for some air conditioning and cool water; the two boys had a great time together. Again, as far as I could see, they were totally prepared and self-sufficient.

Flux

[PetsUntilEaten]

I definately do not believe that all people that go to Burning Man are wonderful, fun loving, peaceful people
Peace

yeah they're called DPW & eplayans.

I agree with you & yet . . .

this is where radical self-expression & radical self-reliance collide.

Some people would no more have the Org take over more responsiblity for us than they would the government. I don't want the Org trying to take care of everthing for us - but that's me.

Also Jordan, you could always just hang out & answer all these questions yourself. I wonder if the tenth time answering the same kinda question if you'll just ignore it, stop posting on the eplaya, or get a little snappy?

I'm not saying its nice - but it gets the job done.

cheers -

pets

[Sobretta Franjipan]

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