Couponing

[maryanimal]

So...what was the issue about the couponing thread? I thought it was an awesome idea! I know the rules about commerce and stuff, but deleting the whole thread? Placing a link to a coupon site is not commerce. You're not asking anyone to buy things or promoting the company. You're not selling anything. Links to freebies isn't selling anything. It is because there is an implication of that possiblity?

I've seen much worse regarding links to places of business. I've seen links to folks' own cottage-style businesses, if you will, in their signature. and although there is nothing about pricing or acutal products to purchase, the implications are there.

So, if I'm wrong about this, please let me know. I'm just curious as I want to make sure I've read the rules right!

Thanks a bunch!! xoxo

[theCryptofishist]

It may not have been yanked. It may have been put under quarantine while they discuss it.

[jkisha]

Might it have something to do with this thread? I'm not a couponer so I never even clicked on the thread. viewtopic.php?f=56&t=51673

[maryanimal]

It may not have been yanked. It may have been put under quarantine while they discuss it.

Ohh I didn't know that fishy! Thanks for the info!

John: Not THIS thread, but there was a couponing thread yesterday that was being questioned about it's posting of commerce based postings.

[jkisha]

It may not have been yanked. It may have been put under quarantine while they discuss it.

Ohh I didn't know that fishy! Thanks for the info!

John: Not THIS thread, but there was a couponing thread yesterday that was being questioned about it's posting of commerce based postings.

Yes, I know. I think that thread was quarantined and the thread I linked to above is a discussion of that. I never clicked on that couponing thread as I don't do coupons and hand zero interest. Though now I have to say my curiosity has certainly been piqued.

[AntiM]

The home business links in the signatures are not allowed, unless the business provides free services or free goods to burners. However, your average mod can't touch a sig-line and the removal must be voluntary, the communication takes time. Sometimes it isn't obvious and slides under the radar for a while. This hasn't come up with the new mods as yet, but it will.

Yes, threads which may be commerce related get set aside until the mods decide. The OP is always contacted, but the readers are not. Referral threads get treated with suspicion, as they are in that icky is this commerce gray area.

[trilobyte]

I pulled the thread. While the intentions may have been good (and I don't doubt they were), it crossed the commerce line. There is a huge difference between a 'referral link' that's part of a discussion about a particular topic or project (ie EL-wire, LED's, etc) and starting a thread to share coupons, deals, and other offers. The latter is exactly what the spammers do. Hell, some of the context spammer posts would even be considered less commercial.

As an alternative, you may want to consider making a group on Facebook/Google/Yahoo to share deals and offers.

[theCryptofishist]

Just clarify. Would instructions to find that group be acceptable posts?

[BBadger]

Hmm, this couponing is an interesting issue. For example I had to fish around on the forums to find this year's Extremeglow BM discount code, as well as the one for the Bikeglow kit, both of which I appreciated. Still, neither discount code appeared to me as a commerce-esque post, perhaps it was because they were replies further down in a thread. I have, however, seen "disguised" spam where a shill asks about some site or product in order to get a regular to mention information about it, making the post seem legitimate. I guess it'll be up to the discretion of the mods. I really don't want to have to join some group, or--the horror--some sort of Facebook thing to get some of these coupon codes for some things.

Perhaps these codes could be submitted to the BM site itself, since they keep a list of suppliers that are burner-friendly with codes, etc.

[trilobyte]

JRS typically does an annual Resource Guide through a post to the newsletter and companion pages on the BurningMan.com web site. That's a one-time thing they do each year, the publication doesn't normally do that sort of thing and it's not something that's allowed on ePlaya at this time.

Think of a project or discussion thread as a conversation you were having with people in a camp on the playa. If, in the course of that conversation one of the participants mentions where they got their <insert whatever it is> that's generally considered a referral link, and is allowed. If someone walks into that camp and just starts up a new conversation about some great product to buy, or a great place to shop, or other cool deals and offer, that crosses the line into advertising and commerce.

As for posting how or where to find that group, I'd think it'd make a perfectly acceptable piece of information to share in this thread.

[maryanimal]

I reread the ToSA and all I found was this re: commerecial use blah blah blah

5. Non Commercial Use by Members. The Eplaya is for the personal use of individual Members only and may not be used in connection with any commercial endeavors. Organizations, companies, and/or businesses may not become Members and may not use the Eplaya for any purpose.
With couponing sites, nothing is for sale or can be bought per se. Just places to print off money saving coupons.

The following is a partial list of the kind of Content that is illegal or prohibited on the Eplaya. Burning Man reserves the right to investigate and take appropriate legal action in its sole discretion against anyone who violates this provision, including without limitation, removing the offending post from the Service and terminating the membership of such violators, in connection with all available civil, criminal, and injunctive remedies. You agree not to use the Service to:
engages in commercial activities and/or sales such as contests, sweepstakes, barter, advertising, and pyramid schemes;
I didn't see any of this going on in the Coupon thread

You may not engage in advertising to, or solicitation of, other Members to buy or sell any products or services through the Service.
Again, I didn't see any of this either. am I missing something?

You may not transmit any chain letters or junk email to other Members. Although Burning Man cannot monitor the conduct of its Members off the Eplaya, it is a violation of these rules to use any information obtained from the Service in order to harass, abuse, or harm another person, or in order to contact, advertise to, solicit, or sell to any Member without their prior explicit consent. In order to protect our Members from such advertising or solicitation, Burning Man reserves the right to restrict the number of emails which a Member may send to other Members in any 24-hour period to a number which Burning Man deems appropriate in its sole discretion.
I didn't see solicitation, advertising, or selling going on.

I'm not trying to stir up anything, I just want to know if I'm reading this properly. I see where there could be a fine line here. But no blatent breaking of rule as I see it. And I could be very wrong. Let me know! School me! I don't mind admitting if I'm misinformed and talking out my ass!

[junglesmacks]

I admit.. I've had in depth conversations with Trilo about the whole non-commerce thing on Eplaya, as it's a really weird grey line to me.

Was Doc Pyro advertising the Sands Regency deal commerce? Is the constant referral to Extreme Glow commerce? Is the mention or encouragement to visit a Kickstarter page/project commerce? Is a mention of a project that may be for-profit commerce? Is someone posting about "Hey, my friend makes these blahblahblah things and sells them" in a response to a post commerce?

It's a sticky, weird, kinda icky line that is drawn on this board and one that really doesn't have much precedence in the forum world. I can't say that I always agree with what is termed is and isn't by the mods. Just that.. hell.. it is what it is.

[maryanimal]

I agree JS. I'm all for keeping the spammers and low lifes out of here. IMHO, I thought this was a little extreme. I'm not saying Trilo overreacted either. He was doing as he seen fit, as any Mod should do! I love our Mods! They have a tough job to do. That gray line can be a bitch at times.

[Shambala]

Let me try one last time to put this mortally wounded horse out of it's misery.

There was a link on that thread for a specific coffee company that brought you right to their site for sample of their product. This is just free stuff for people who want it. There is no direct connection to a discussion. It would be more appropriate if it were a discussion on tents for the playa, and someone posted a coupon or link for $100 off any Colman tent, for example.

There is still a fine line, but if I just posted a coupon out of the clear blue for Jiffy Lube oil change, because I think everyone wants to save a few bucks on an oil change. It's not really related to a discussion (well, now it is) and I am just trying to do a good thing here. There are a million things that would fall in this category, such as free cigarettes etc.


I hope everyone can see how odd and out of place this (expired) coupon looks here. I am just making a point and not pushing oil changes, or a specific (former) camp on the playa.

[maryanimal]

Let me try one last time to put this mortally wounded horse out of it's misery.

There was a link on that thread for a specific coffee company that brought you right to their site for sample of their product. This is just free stuff for people who want it. There is no direct connection to a discussion. It would be more appropriate if it were a discussion on tents for the playa, and someone posted a coupon or link for $100 off any Colman tent, for example.

There is still a fine line, but if I just posted a coupon out of the clear blue for Jiffy Lube oil change, because I think everyone wants to save a few bucks on an oil change. It's not really related to a discussion (well, now it is) and I am just trying to do a good thing here. There are a million things that would fall in this category, such as free cigarettes etc.

Will you put that in layman's terms Sham...*ducks and hides*

[Eric]

It's a sticky, weird, kinda icky line that is drawn on this board and one that really doesn't have much precedence in the forum world. I can't say that I always agree with what is termed is and isn't by the mods. Just that.. hell.. it is what it is.

Building on Shams post, then considering this horse beaten:

I think its a grey area for us as well, but as part of the LLC the Mods have to figure it out. Some is easy (selling a hexayurt, renting a "burner friendly" apartment, and the ones that have no remote playa context at all), some is a little trickier (like the coupon thread).

My personal feelings are that unless it directly deals with the event or items to be used at the event, it's commerce. The deal Doc gets for people at the Sands is one of those done for Burners, he doesn't profit from it & doesn't have a connection with the Sands (other than as a customer); I think it passes the "commerce test". The coupon thread is nice for bargain hunting, but doesn't really have any direct connection with the Burn, I'm one of those who counts it as commerce (well meaning, but still commerce)

Mind you- these are my feelings on it- almost every questionable commerce post gets discussed by the Mods to get a consensus, it's not done by fiat.

[jkisha]

Or another example.
I'm in the "what are you reading" book thread and I post a link to the book on Amazon.com...shouldn't be a problem.
But, if I posted my affiliate link to the book, just in case someone decides to buy it and read it, that would be commerce because I'd make a commission. (might be hard to distinguish which was which)

[junglesmacks]

My personal feelings are that unless it directly deals with the event or items to be used at the event, it's commerce.

That's WAY looser than what I was explained. I was told that anything having to do with money changing hands.. period.. is commerce and is outlawed. Whether that be a camp or project saying hey check out my Kickstarter campaign or someone posting about a service for the burn.. which.. is pretty blatant and I could see.

What's weird is that us talking about it in a by and by way.. is fine.. which it should be. So what's to stop someone from instigating banter? (Not saying this is.. but this would be a prime possibility: viewtopic.php?f=276&t=51681)

I understand the reasoning behind it for sure. I mean, this is a huge, lucrative base of exposure that makes any internet marketer or burner-related business salivate. It's a funny line though because as much as the line needs to be drawn, there is still the reality that 95% of the users on here might actually appreciate the information of it if it was allowed to be posted.

Double edged sword for sure. No commerce allowed be damned the utility of it.

Not bitching, just saying

[maryanimal]

I understand what everybody is saying about the commerce and things. I was kidding Sham when I asked him to say it in Laymens terms. I got it way before then.

I saw it as something related to helping burners find ways to save money on food they're bringing to the playa. so that makes it commerce. Making it possible to purchase goods from companies. Although we aren't profitting from it. Sorry if I appear thick headed.

[theCryptofishist]

I think it's been a pretty good, productive, civil conversation. I'm even a little proud of us.

[junglesmacks]

...related to helping burners find ways...

bingbingbingbing we have a winner

When it's related to this, I vote to be allowed. Help is a good thing.


..but then.. dammit.. when someone comes on with a post of "Hey my 'friend' is making pre-frozen meals that are perfect for the playa.." or I come on and say "Hey I'm now making LED light suits for people and I'd love to help you have a killer outfit this year.." (*cough*cough*)

..that would be "commerce".. but.. the dual edged sword like I said is that what if people genuinely would benefit and WANT to know about it?


Ok.. so here is a suggestion/idea. What if we created a separate forum area for event related "referrals" or product discussions? This way anything of the such could be moved there, and people could choose to look in there or not. There would be no grey area of deleting threads. The caveat would be that it would have to be directly, unequivocally related to the event and honestly

...related to helping burners find ways...

.

What are the thoughts on that?

[maryanimal]

I think so too fishyfriend. I just needed some info. Got lots of great info from the mods! And everyone else for that matter! yay for us!!

[Eric]

Ok.. so here is a suggestion/idea. What if we created a separate forum area for event related "referrals" or product discussions? This way anything of the such could be moved there, and people could choose to look in there or not. There would be no grey area of deleting threads. The caveat would be that it would have to be directly, unequivocally related to the event and honestly

...related to helping burners find ways...

What are the thoughts on that?

The bottom line is that's something the Org would have to decide on. Right now we're considered an extension of the playa, which means no-commerce. As said above, that gets tricky, and, yes, I take a very loose line on what's commerce from regular posters (spam is easy...).

As you said in your full post- it's a double edged sword. Once you allow one person to post commerce, what's to stop someone who's newer from posting something they think is acceptable but crosses the latest boundary? Do we just throw open the gates?

[junglesmacks]

As you said in your full post- it's a double edged sword. Once you allow one person to post commerce, what's to stop someone who's newer from posting something they think is acceptable but crosses the latest boundary? Do we just throw open the gates?

Agreed. Then we get into a whole new but same position of grey lines. To quote a PM exchange I just had with someone.. Where do you draw the line what is or isn't help? Is that sale on 4 new tires at your local Les Schwab (be damned the free beef! Do they still do that??) a help or is it spam? I mean.. people need tires to drive to the burn with, right? But then what about people making killer coats that people want to see? Then what keeps people from bumping up and up and up their own post?

It's a sticky situation, and it kinda sucks but it kinda doesnt but it kinda does but it kinda doesnt but it kinda does..

[Eric]

It's a sticky situation, and it kinda sucks but it kinda doesnt but it kinda does but it kinda doesnt but it kinda does..

and that just about sums it up perfectly.

[MOOP_Czar]

[junglesmacks]

I've seen, much, much, MUCH more dead horses be beat to such a bloody pulp that there was fibery bits of gristle and hoof left on the eplaya walls.

Let's not forget this gem: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45068

[MOOP_Czar]

How in the hell did I miss that?

[theCryptofishist]

How in the hell did I miss that?

You mean that wasn't you with the wet/dry vac? Damn, maybe it was Mrs. White with the scrub brush and pail...

[maryanimal]

I've seen, much, much, MUCH more dead horses be beat to such a bloody pulp that there was fibery bits of gristle and hoof left on the eplaya walls.

Let's not forget this gem: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45068

That was a good thread. Didn't we come to the conclusion that the person was a sock?