Kids & Teenagers at Burning Man

[fspace]

We've been going to BM since 1996. Last year was the first year we took our daughter (9 then). As you all know it was the biggest BM ever. Just Massive. She had a great time. We had a great time. She was responsible enough to self censor herself at times, but generally we were able to act as a filter to help her understand what was going on. Honestly she was more interested in the art and making friends than the "stupid grown-up tricks". In short, she was too busy being a kid to pay much attention to the grown-ups. We don't do drugs or really drink, so it was actually pretty easy to hang out with our daughter full time. In fact, she helped us notice more of the positives about BM.

We camped with our friends. She was the only kid and she fit right in. We had no problems the entire time. The "strangest" thing actually happened AT Kids Camp, when one of the boys they were putting a play together with saw his mom making out with some strange guy. The kid was about 13 and just started crying. That just seems really inconsiderate regardless of being at burningman or not. Seems like mom had some 'splaining to do. Another of our friends got really wasted one night and we talked with him about it the next day. If anything, that just served as a counter-example to her.

Short of it is: If you are responsible and the kid is responsible it will be a good time. If either are flakey, it could be trouble. But that's true at BM regardless of age.

[Release Me]

Well this year I have a little nervous anticipation with soon to be family members going as well. My girlfriend's (soon to be fiancee') parents are coming out this year too. Originally they were going to camp with their friends, all of whom bailed out. Of course I invited them to stay with us. They will soon discover what a freak I am, far from the conservitive stockbroker I am the rest of the year. They are the coolest parents I've ever met so I'm not too worried. Additionally, they are not going to be there until Thursday, so I'll try to get most of the nasty side out of my system before then. I'm sure they'll have an incredible expereience.

Another issue is my old man. He's a veteran burner too, though I've never seen him out there. This is mostly due to miscommunication, but this year he'll be at my camp with his wife. Though I agree with Imagigrl's "no hold's barred" accceptance, one year my dad had too much gin and viagra and was running around the playa with his penis wrapped in electical tape. I think his body parts are still healing from the removal of the tape. As you can imagine how the anxiety for me settles in. Though my dad and her parents have met once...they just have no idea.

My position is this. I'm going to make sure that I have a fantasic burn as always. I'm going to make sure my girlfreind has a fantastic burn as always. I'll be out there Monday so I'll have time to create a comfortable 'common area' for every one to chill in. I'll coach the newbies (her parents and other campmates) what to bring, read the survival guide, etc. So by the time were all together my preparations will allow me a week of whatever happens, happens. No stress. Plus, I think my dad learned a valuable lesson on the proper use of electical tape.

If anyone alse has any suggestions for me as far preparedness, managing expectations and the like please let me know now because once I'm there it's all about me...and my girl.

[unjonharley]

The couple across the street from us last year had parents with them.
It was the guys mother and father. The dad got naked and painted blue. The mom could not get around to well. She served coffee in the morning to any one that droped by. By the end of the week she had made manny new friends. The pepole that had coffee would drop in during the day to visit. They are planing to be on the playa in 04.

[Alchemy]

I have also taken the time to explain to my kids thru roll play ( dont get silly troops) and thru the usual parental yadda yadda about adult themes. When you arive at BRC the greeters hand you a small map of the city site plan with the street marked...I then have gone into the research once there and marked the areas that are adult in red with dots and then marked the rest of the map with color codes of kid stuff and a you are here smiley for our address. My kids are equipped with our address on the back of the map which is attached to their bikes. Each has a watch, a note book,and a playa name which they use at the event . I beleive that to be safer than using theyre default names, cuz like yer never suppose to give your name to strangers. The note book is for drawing land marks in and stickers and stuff.

I have found that my kids are just as happy not to run into adult situations as adults are not to have to worry about them. Dry erace boards are terriffic for schedules,notes and other stuff. Those 60 gallon storage tubbs at target double great for packing in and out and then as mobil bath tubs..just add ice daily and its a great way to keep them cool or you for that matter. Oh yeah...WET T-SHIRTS go a long way in fending off too much heat..

Im gonna post a baby party info at burning bell...more how to"s and baby playa life styles with cocktails prhaps....Join us !!! jjjjjjjjoooooooiiiiinnnnn uuuusssssssssss! Also everybody gettin married...how bout some babtismoz like fire style.... LETS!!!! Alchemy,Princess Fofi LU of the Moncheechi aka the Playa Messiah and Furious George.

[Badger]

I'll be checking Ranger Logs for the number of missing children reports for a piece that I'm writing, but for the moment, I don't know how many children have been reported missing.

We had one child missing last year. That child was found VERY soon after the report came in. ALL Rangers were notified that finding the child was a priority. That will not change.

There are contingencies in place if it happens again this year. They're not discussed openly only because doing so could give away strategies that we employ in tandem with law enforcement personnel. Suffice it to say that they're tried and true methods. Not perfect but damn good given the unique nature of the event.

[Fat SAM]

I have a 7 year old step daughter. She's a beautiful young girl, has a scrorching case of ADD (making her a pefect candidate for raving or being a burner), is full of vibrant creative energy, and loves to talk and run and have fun. She would love Burning Man. However...

I would never consider bringing her, specifically, because we have custody issues with her dad, who is very conservative and obnoxious. I think that if you're a parent who has even an inkling of a custody problem to deal with, don't do it.

If she were my child, biologically, and we didn't have to worry about it, I'd still wait a year, as this is going to be my first year (and my wife's) staying the whole week. I've been out before, but only for a day. I think I would try to make it as physically comfortable for her as possible, too -try to rent an RV or something. Tent camping and stuff is cool for us, but I don't think I'd like her to be sucking dust for a week.

I can say for sure, though, that Kidsville will be one of my first stops when there are a good number of people there. I really want to see how the kids react to the older burners and vice versa. I figure at night, it's pretty quiet - I'd imagine it to be, anyway. Also, our daughter, Harmony, has asked us to give some of the bracelets that we've been making to kids and I think that's a great idea.

So we'll see. Sadly, I don't think we'll be able to bring her out for another few years - hopefully there'll still be a Burning Man...

On a side note, I'm almost 100% positive that Burning Man will be an experience that I can walk away from and be able to relate with Harmony waaaaaaaaaaaay better than I can currently. I think that it's really going to be a positive step in being able to live in a more childlike state.

Do any of the parents (of younger kids) have any feelings about that? Have you noticed anything along those lines? Just curious. Peace

[DVD Burner]

Just thought this artical was intersting and reminded me of this thread. ( I know....there's no relation.)

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/07/01/news_ ... ound.shtml


Nude kids' camp found harmless
The governor's general counsel suggests a congressman seek local, legislative or national remedies.
By CHASE SQUIRES, Times Staff Writer
© St. Petersburg Times
published July 1, 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Gov. Jeb Bush, following a congressman's complaints, ordered a state investigation into nude summer camps for children, but the probe uncovered no evidence of illegal activity, according to the governor's general counsel.

In a letter to U.S. Rep. Mark Foley, R-West Palm Beach, General Counsel Raquel Rodriguez said Bush "shares your concern for the well-being of children" but there is little he can do. Instead, the letter indicates that perhaps Congress, the state Legislature or individual communities might want to get involved.

Foley, co-chairman of the House's Missing and Exploited Children's Caucus, learned of children attending nude summer camps from a newspaper article. The news led Foley to ask the state to look into the practice in Florida, including a nude camp run at the Lake Como nudist resort in Land O'Lakes under the direction of Kissimmee-based American Association for Nude Recreation.

Rodriguez, in a letter released Monday by Foley's office, reported the state has no law against being nude without evidence of intent to engage in lewd or lascivious behavior.

The state will continue to investigate, Rodriguez wrote to Foley. But it might not be up to the governor's office to interfere.

"Governor Bush supports solutions to protect children from sexual and financial exploitation and encourages members of Congress and the Florida Legislature to consider legislation that would prevent solicitation by these establishments using interstate commerce if inappropriate or illegal behavior is occurring," Rodriguez wrote.

The governor's office also suggested if not the Legislature, perhaps local communities should oversee nude camps.

"The state's interest in protecting children is enhanced by local communities, which are in a stronger position to regulate activities that take place in their jurisdiction," Rodriguez wrote.

Foley's communications director, Christopher Paulitz, said the congressman is pleased that the governor and the state Department of Children and Families got involved and is studying the issue. Paulitz said Foley has considered addressing the matter in Congress, but so far has thought it might be best dealt with by individual states.

State Rep. John Quinones, R-Kissimmee, said Monday that constituents in his district, concerned about a nudist resort there, brought the issue of children at nudist camps to him. He said he is studying the situation and might introduce legislation next year, but it was too early to say how that bill would address the issue.

"I want to make sure whatever I do is constitutional," he said. "I want to protect our children, but I want to do it within the Constitution."

A statement released Monday by the nude recreation association supports Bush's position and findings, calling the letter "a very thoughtful, pragmatic response."

"We stand ready to provide our support in protecting the well-being of our youth against illegal behavior," the statement reads.

© Copyright 2003 St. Petersburg Times. All rights reserved

[Stormy]

The thing that bothers me the most, is that shame around nudity and sexuality are what cause harmful behaviors. Women and children become targets for sexual abuse because of the lack of information necessary to combat abuse and the shame that prevents people from reporting it. Pornography and peeping are probably so popular due to nudity being such a secretive thing. And because most people rarely see others nude, they equate nudity with sex, which is far from what it is.

[mamagrrl]

I've been reading this thread with some amused interest - because my 15yo (virgin) son is bringing me (also virgin), his mom... I'm excited to be going, but probably wouldn't think to go if I didn't have him. We're virgin to the playa, but not to self-sufficient living (to a certain degree.) I've gotten us tucked into a themecamp, but we could go solo, with all the planning I'm doing. We're even volunteering already. I'm not worried, not even a little. Definitely, kids should be at burningman.

I think what the initial questioner should have asked instead, is what short of personalities/behaviors do you feel should be/notbe at burning man?

Idiots (idiot parents too) top the list, followed closely by frat boy mentalities... Strangely enough, frat boys fit under the 'idiot' catagory.

Personally, I think the frat boys pose the most difficulties for BM in the long run. They're ignorantly destructive, don't return what they take from the community, and are just thoughtless idiots. Take, take, take. They probably think bm is 'Girls Gone Wild' 24/7, town-wide. (reference: 'Show us your tits' camp. If they're not out already, why would I want to bother?) Frat boys are probably why rental companies won't rent to bmers, why the townies probably aren't always tickled pink to see bm arrive and why there's a larger legal awareness (as I understand it.) Frats don't care to keep the town going. To frats, it's just a wild party while the parents are gone. ...but then I live across the street from a 30+year old frat boy (still lives with his mummy, rent-free!), so maybe I'm projecting.
Could be.

[DVD Burner]

frat boys are from college in most cases yes?

This President is a frat boy yes?

Is'nt this world run by frat boys?


This world must be in a world of shit yes?

[thedrunkenmonkey]

Yer thinking of the Illuminati.

Stop that. You're not supposed to. (whacks DVD on the noggin)

We'll hit you on the head until you say, "Ow. Quit it." five times in a row if you keep thinking about who runs the world.

Serious post: FS, the Martians (at 9:30 and Esp, this year) had a discussion at some point about having a kid's day at our camp where the kids could come through and hang out in our structure - and they can bring an adult if they WANT to.

It'd be a sign posted at the gate that said, "Kids and parents ONLY from X time until X time". We haven't really gone much past that. But you're very right - if the father's a conservative, then chances are taking a kid who's not yet of the teen years (13 and below) is probably not the best for custody arrangements.

I'd actually encourage camps, especially kid-friendly camps, to have a kid's event. We talked about a root beer float party on the playa for kids (but again, whether we're going to do it is something else entirely).

[stuart]

enter the thought police


it is tough to take an opinion from someone who has never been to burning man seriously about what should and should not be at burning man.

[Sloan]

I don't care if you all hate me. But you parents should leave the 16-and-under kids at home and here's why.

This event, as great as it may be for kids, it is not intended a parenting or teaching tool. It is not meant for the wonder of children. Not designed for them. Sure they may glean some good stuff (and not so good stuff) from the experience, but just because they can do, doesn’t mean it was intended that way. I’m glad it creates a platform for you and a disgruntled teen to relate, but that is not its purpose. I’m glad it provides a new reality to share with your seven year-old, but it is more than that. I’m glad there are things to stimulate your kiddies, but the art and community was not designed to serve as entertainment to fill your family vacation.

The event is unpredictable, an adult free-for-all, uncensored, liberating, sometimes dangerous, and most of us like it that way.

To approach and arrange the event so it’s a good time for the kiddies, well, then it’s on the road to becoming Disney world—an apparently reviled venue by the sound of things here. And for what it’s worth, Disney is annoying because it so panders to children and asks for their undying commercial consumption in return…but equally as annoying, is the way it’s designed for completely for children. How safe it is…how boring. Think about that, and think about what you want the future of Burning Man to look like? Can any once-happy sinners say with me, “We miss you, Las Vegas!”

The BM org has already asked certain camps to move away from Kidsville because their content was found unacceptable for kids. That's right, the influence of children is forcing well-meaning artists and active supporters of the event to change and accommodate these little creatures. People who have toiled and imagined and paid dearly for their art, are now being affected by neighbors who add, in my opinion, nothing to the event.

I like kids, but I don't feel they add to the event itself. They just exist there. As is their nature, they are the ultimate spectators, because they are too small, too fragile and too unschooled in the art of self-reliance to know any better. They are little squirmy blobs just waiting to be injured, who not just require, but DEMAND endless supervision, protection and a safe environment.

This scares me, because in supporting a large child-friendly environment, we are inviting the “make-every-thing-safe-for-children” mentality that runs counter to one main energy arteries of the event…the sublime, the unknown, the dangerous, the heart-stopping, the sexy and the…well, that may not be safe for a 6-year-old, let’s move it WAY over there.

I realize that L.H. brought his sons to the early events, and they have gone on to support the event even today. Bless him and his sons. And everyone else who has helped this event blossom into what it is. But the event has evolved. It’s bigger, scarier, more wonderful and it’s the die-hard participants who have made it that way. Not children.

What's more, I think most kids’ attendance is more or less for their parent's enjoyment, so the parent can feel nice about themselves, because they have children who “made it through the event.” Now they have a nice story to tell. Great, way to go. "Yeah, I took my two-year-old to burning man. He’s a hard-core little dude!”

Uh huh, I’m sure it was fun changing those diaper between the martinis and flame balls. Nothing says "radical self-reliance” like a looking to your right and seeing a couple in matching jogging suits, pushing a brand-new baby carriage, saying “Ohhh, lets take the kids to see Dr. Megavolt!” Welcome to a gentler, kinder Burning Man. I hope that four-year-old thoroughly studied the “survival guide.”

Not to sound too harsh, if you leave a dog on the playa and it gets lost, I bet it has a better chance of independently finding shade, water and food, and surviving…a much better chance than a 5-year old. Without a lot of help, a young child will die of the elements. Children are not at all self-sufficient, and they can not take care of themselves. BM bans dogs for that reason. Yet toddlers are wholly welcomed. Huh.

There are a million places for children, designed with children in mind, built for children that are fun and safe and good for children, which a parent can go to. Including the much-distained Disney parks, if that be the case.

I think it is selfish for parents to take any children under 16 this event in particular. Younger than that, and they become a liability. And when a child is seriously injured or worse at the event, I can almost hear the lawyers banging on the BM offices doors in SF. Despite the ticket warning the event will suffer, no doubt at the same well-intentioned hands of the parent who muttered "oh, my child is definitely mature enough for the event." Their tune will change to, "I never wanted to lose my baby! Lets sue!"

Actiongirl wrote that a society is not whole without children. Fine. BM never claimed to be a society. BM is a community, and a community can exist just fine without children. I don’t think they should be banned or otherwise, but I think parents should take it upon themselves to not bring anyone younger than 16. Would I miss the occasional glimpse of a Mohawked toddler? Not really. Would I miss seeing a couple of jubilant 10-year olds making paper chains for their own camp-made cardboard burning man? Not so much. My sister has a 3-year old nephew. I can visit him whenever I want.

I don’t care what any of you say. This is not a family-themed vacation, nor do I ever hope it becomes one. I plan on having kids someday, and when I do, I will take them when they are 16. I would take them when they are younger, but only if BM did away with the drinking, the fire, the nightmarish costume, the slave auctions, the fire spinning, the explosions, the art cars, the loud noise and the sharp pointy things on some art, and when they install big air mattresses beneath thunder dome.

And I hope that’s never.

This wasn’t to inflame or offend. Just my opinion. Long live free speech.

[Sensei]

I've been reading this thread with some amused interest - because my 15yo (virgin) son is bringing me (also virgin), his mom...

Great. Welcome to the nightmare.

Personally, I think the frat boys pose the most difficulties for BM in the long run. They're ignorantly destructive, don't return what they take from the community, and are just thoughtless idiots. Take, take, take. They probably think bm is 'Girls Gone Wild' 24/7, town-wide. (reference: 'Show us your tits' camp. If they're not out already, why would I want to bother?) Frat boys are probably why rental companies won't rent to bmers, why the townies probably aren't always tickled pink to see bm arrive and why there's a larger legal awareness (as I understand it.) Frats don't care to keep the town going. To frats, it's just a wild party while the parents are gone. ...but then I live across the street from a 30+year old frat boy (still lives with his mummy, rent-free!), so maybe I'm projecting.
Could be.

Trust Sensei on just this one: you're projecting. You're projecting, bigtime. You'll be doing yourself, as well as everyone else, a huge favor if you leave your prejudices and preconceptions at home. Want to see my list of things that "pose the most difficulties for BM in the long run"? Somewhere up near the top of that list would be "standing idly by while newbies who haven't even attended talk shit." Why? Simply put, it's because "They're ignorantly destructive, don't return what they take from the community, and are just thoughtless idiots. Take, take, take." Or something like that... I seriously think that before you spout off on what our problems are, you should have at least one under your belt. Ugh.

[ness]

What sloane said.......except I think no one under 21 should be allowed on the playa.......It is an adult kinda of event.

[mamagrrl]

Trust Sensei on just this one: you're projecting. You're projecting, bigtime. You'll be doing yourself, as well as everyone else, a huge favor if you leave your prejudices and preconceptions at home.

Mmmn, could be, could be. I'm willing to own that, if I am. Right now, I'm working from what I've heard on other forums, from my veteran-burner campmates and etc. All I can work with is their experiences, but I DO work with it, not just let it sit there unquestioned.

Want to see my list of things that "pose the most difficulties for BM in the long run"? Somewhere up near the top of that list would be "standing idly by while newbies who haven't even attended talk shit."

Isn't it called 'talking smack' nowadays? In any event, I'm sorry you took it as smack. I didn't think a newbie's impression of what she'd heard so far would carry so much weight with you! And actually, I would like to hear your list. Not just the one item.

Look, it's an opinion and I laid out very carefully where it's coming from and what my background is, so you (and every reader) would have a better idea of what information I'm working from. It's a viewpoint, much like yours, only taken from the accumulated impressions and comments of many, many veteran burners.

Why? Simply put, it's because "They're ignorantly destructive, don't return what they take from the community, and are just thoughtless idiots. Take, take, take." Or something like that... I seriously think that before you spout off on what our problems are, you should have at least one under your belt. Ugh.

Honey, chill. I'm not trying to burn down your parade. I think maybe I'm not the only one projecting, around here.

Unbenownst to you, this rank-virgin-newbie is already GIVING to the community. I've helped make a bm-fire-art-opportunity so others can form and burn their own little men. I'm singlehandedly creating shade and cooling mist for many of my camp (veteran burners mostly) as well as passersby. We're even planning a roving-mister offering. In the process of all my reading-up and readying, I've even helped pull together lists of 'veteran's essentials' so that we and other newbies in our camp would be less likely to put a strain on BRC's resources. The teen (not disgruntled, as some might believe) and I are both coming in early to help set up Camp Arctica, and then we're volunteering there almost every day in the hopes that YOU, veteran holier-than-thou/s can have your ice without too much of a wait.

It so happens that even without having yet set foot on the playa, I've become enamoured of burning man, what it represented then, and the striving to stay true to that vision (and/or the struggle to get back to it.) I have not interest in seeing it cut down, curtailed or hindered. I think that it should be a liberating experience for everyone and even having not gone yet, can really hear and agree with some of the disgruntlements of those who were there in the free-er days.

But then, I'm a newbie and I take, take, take.
(laughing)
I think I've got a clue.
Thank goodness I've also got a sense of humor.

[mamagrrl]

Trust Sensei on just this one: you're projecting. You're projecting, bigtime. You'll be doing yourself, as well as everyone else, a huge favor if you leave your prejudices and preconceptions at home.

Mmmn, could be, could be. I'm willing to own that, if I am. Right now, I'm working from what I've heard on other forums, from my veteran-burner campmates and etc. All I can work with is their experiences, but I DO work with it, not just let it sit there unquestioned.

Want to see my list of things that "pose the most difficulties for BM in the long run"? Somewhere up near the top of that list would be "standing idly by while newbies who haven't even attended talk shit."

Isn't it called 'talking smack' nowadays? In any event, I'm sorry you took it as smack. I didn't think a newbie's impression of what she'd heard so far would carry so much weight with you! And actually, I would like to hear your list. Not just the one item.

Why? Simply put, it's because "They're ignorantly destructive, don't return what they take from the community, and are just thoughtless idiots. Take, take, take." Or something like that... I seriously think that before you spout off on what our problems are, you should have at least one under your belt. Ugh.

Honey, chill. I'm not trying to burn down your parade. I was merely pointing out that focusing on a minor issue, allows one to ignore a major issue. As for newbies being ignorantly destructive, thoughtless idiots, I think maybe I'm not the only one projecting around here.

Unbenownst to you, this rank-virgin-newbie is already GIVING to the community. I've helped make a bm-fire-art-opportunity so others can form and burn their own little men all week long. I'm singlehandedly creating shade and cooling mist for many of my camp (veteran burners mostly) as well as passersby. We newbies are even planning a roving-mister offering. In the process of all my reading-up and readying, I've pulled together lists of 'veteran's essentials' so that we and any other newbies in our camp will be less likely to put a strain on BRC's resources. The teen son (not disgruntled, as some might believe) and I are both coming in early to help set up Camp Arctica, and then we're volunteering there every day but one, in the hopes that YOU, veteran holier-than-thou/s can have your ice without too much of a wait.

Even without having yet set foot on the playa, I've become enamoured of burning man, what it represented then, and the striving to stay true to that vision (and/or the struggle to get back to it.) I have no interest in seeing it cut down, curtailed or hindered. I think that it should be a liberating experience for everyone and even having not gone yet, can really hear and sometimes agree with the disgruntlements of those who were there in the free-er days.

But then, I'm an iger'nt newbie and I take, take, take.
(laughing)
I think I've got a clue.
Thank goodness I've also got a sense of humor and a whole lot of compassion.

[mamagrrl]

Trust Sensei on just this one: you're projecting. You're projecting, bigtime. You'll be doing yourself, as well as everyone else, a huge favor if you leave your prejudices and preconceptions at home.

Mmmn, could be, could be. I'm willing to own that, if I am. Right now, I'm working from what I've heard on other forums, from my veteran-burner campmates and etc. All I can work with is their experiences, but I DO work with it, not just let it sit there unquestioned.

Want to see my list of things that "pose the most difficulties for BM in the long run"? Somewhere up near the top of that list would be "standing idly by while newbies who haven't even attended talk shit."

Isn't it called 'talking smack' nowadays? In any event, I'm sorry you took it as smack. I didn't think a newbie's impression of what she'd heard so far would carry so much weight with you! And actually, I would like to hear your list. Not just the one item.

Why? Simply put, it's because "They're ignorantly destructive, don't return what they take from the community, and are just thoughtless idiots. Take, take, take." Or something like that... I seriously think that before you spout off on what our problems are, you should have at least one under your belt. Ugh.

Honey, chill. I'm not trying to burn down your parade. I was merely pointing out that focusing on a minor issue, allows one to ignore a major issue. As for newbies being ignorantly destructive, thoughtless idiots, I think maybe I'm not the only one projecting around here.

Unbenownst to you, this rank-virgin-newbie is already GIVING to the community. I've helped make a bm-fire-art-opportunity so others can form and burn their own little men all week long. I'm singlehandedly creating shade and cooling mist for many of my camp (veteran burners mostly) as well as passersby. We newbies are even planning a roving-mister offering. In the process of all my reading-up and readying, I've pulled together lists of 'veteran's essentials' so that we and any other newbies in our camp will be less likely to put a strain on BRC's resources. The teen son (not disgruntled, as some might believe) and I are both coming in early to help set up Camp Arctica, and then we're volunteering there every day but one, in the hopes that YOU, veteran holier-than-thou/s can have your ice without too much of a wait.

Even without having yet set foot on the playa, I've become enamoured of burning man, what it represented then, and the striving to stay true to that vision (and/or the struggle to get back to it.) I have no interest in seeing it cut down, curtailed or hindered. I think that it should be a liberating experience for everyone and even having not gone yet, can really hear and sometimes agree with the disgruntlements of those who were there in the free-er days.

But then, I'm an iger'nt newbie and I take, take, take.
(laughing)
I think I've got a clue.
Thank goodness I've also got a sense of humor and a whole lot of compassion.

[mamagrrl]

Trust Sensei on just this one: you're projecting. You're projecting, bigtime. You'll be doing yourself, as well as everyone else, a huge favor if you leave your prejudices and preconceptions at home.

Mmmn, could be, could be. I'm willing to own that, if I am. Right now, I'm working from what I've heard on other forums, from my veteran-burner campmates and etc. All I can work with is their experiences, but I DO work with it, not just let it sit there unquestioned.

Want to see my list of things that "pose the most difficulties for BM in the long run"? Somewhere up near the top of that list would be "standing idly by while newbies who haven't even attended talk shit."

Isn't it called 'talking smack' nowadays? In any event, I'm sorry you took it as smack. I didn't think a newbie's impression of what she'd heard so far would carry so much weight with you! And actually, I would like to hear your list. Not just the one item.

Why? Simply put, it's because "They're ignorantly destructive, don't return what they take from the community, and are just thoughtless idiots. Take, take, take." Or something like that... I seriously think that before you spout off on what our problems are, you should have at least one under your belt. Ugh.

Honey, chill. I'm not trying to burn down your parade. I was merely pointing out that focusing on a minor issue, allows one to ignore a major issue. As for newbies being ignorantly destructive, thoughtless idiots, I think maybe I'm not the only one projecting around here.

Unbenownst to you, this rank-virgin-newbie is already GIVING to the community. I've helped make a bm-fire-art-opportunity so others can form and burn their own little men all week long. I'm singlehandedly creating shade and cooling mist for many of my camp (veteran burners mostly) as well as passersby. We newbies are even planning a roving-mister offering. In the process of all my reading-up and readying, I've pulled together lists of 'veteran's essentials' so that we and any other newbies in our camp will be less likely to put a strain on BRC's resources. The teen son (not disgruntled, as some might believe) and I are both coming in early to help set up Camp Arctica, and then we're volunteering there every day but one, in the hopes that YOU, veteran holier-than-thou/s can have your ice without too much of a wait.

Even without having yet set foot on the playa, I've become enamoured of burning man, what it represented then, and the striving to stay true to that vision (and/or the struggle to get back to it.) I have no interest in seeing it cut down, curtailed or hindered. I think that it should be a liberating experience for everyone (but also that liberation can only be defined by each individual and that some folks idea of 'liberating' might be oppressive to other folks.) It's not difficult to really hear and sometimes agree with the disgruntlements of those who were there in the free-er days.

But then, I'm an iger'nt newbie and I take, take, take.
(laughing)
I think I've got a clue.
Thank goodness I've also got a sense of humor and a whole lot of compassion.

[mamagrrl]

...okay, but clueless about keeping things from posting four times...

[Sloan]

I didn't know this was a contest about participated the most, or who has gone the most, or has the biggest clue as to "getting it," or who does and does not belong at the event. Without all of us, there is no event. We are the event. Now give each other a hug.

[actiongrl]

>BM bans dogs for that reason. Yet toddlers are wholly welcomed. Huh.


Huh. Well, dogs, even the smartest of them, don't really have the potential to grow up and, building on their positive experiences as children, make the world a better place.

I'm a huge dog lover (my fiance is a dogwalker and we are both dog-crazy) but I do think you could have a community without dogs. I wouldn't say the same about children.

[Sloan]

Most dogs, regardless of when or if they grow up, make the world a better place. I can not say the same about most children.

[Sensei]

...okay, but clueless about keeping things from posting four times...
:lol:

You don't sound clueless to me, there mamagrrl. I snapped at the generalization, that's all. Some of my best friends were frat types in their day. A lot of the cool shit you're gonna see was created by, you guessed it, fratboys. Don't worry, you'll see...

And I say "Thank God" someone still has their sense of humor around here; besides me, of course.

[Blonde Iguana]

Mamagrrl, I too am a newbie mom taking her newbie teen (daughter, just turned 16) to Burning Man. We're not with a camp, so we're jumping straight into deep water and damn I hope I got the right size fins!!! I've got most of the stuff on my list, now the challenge will be to figure out what to do with it all.

Maybe we'll get a chance to swing by your camp and say hi. Someone recommended that since we have kids (even tho they're older) we should try to camp between 4:30 and 5:00 somewhere.

[mamagrrl]

I snapped at the generalization, that's all. Some of my best friends were frat types in their day. A lot of the cool shit you're gonna see was created by, you guessed it, fratboys. Don't worry, you'll see...

It's cool. I snapped too. One of my pet peeves is when folks think that people who are new to a situation can't see what's gone on or have a valid opinion. Sometimes they have the clearest sight of all. (but not always or maybe even mostly.)

I hope I *do* see. I'd like that a lot. ...but I'm not sure that if someone's creating things, that I'd call 'em 'fratboys'... or maybe there needs to be a different name for the type of person I'm thinking of...

Blonde Ig: Please DO stop by! We'll be at 5:00 and Mercury with BouncyBouncyClub. Look for the big white ford truck and flatbed trailer. If you find you're without something, check with me 'cause I'll probably have a gallon of whatever it is. (laughing) I've started trying to unpack some of my overpack.

[diode]

I remember a couple of burns ago, a buck naked guy wearing rams horns was posing on his own personal lifeguard station off the esplanade.

In his own preening way, he was utterly vulgar, hilarious, and confrontational...or sexy if that's what tweaks your libido.

I believe the kid-friendly burn will suppress this kind of behavior even though two years ago it was acceptable.

It's weird in a way. Kids have always been at BM, and have probably witnessed all kinds of debauchery, artistry and chaos apparently without harm.

Kid-friendly seems like marketing-speak to me.

[Interested bystander]

or those whom the group didn't think were cool enough to enter.

I know this thread is about kids but the quoted sentence really bothers me. I've been to 4 burns with the first being 1998. My wife has been to the last two with me, we were married in 2001. We will never be accused of being "cool" and probably wouldn't be able to enter your theme camp. I noticed lots of camps the last two years being very exclusive, either by using guards at the door to turn away those that didn't fit their image of people they want to hang out with or just being downright rude and obnoxious. I think this runs contrary to what BM should be, an inclusive participatory community. I can understand people not wanting to let any old drunk or stoned passerby in to vomit on their things but why would you try and keep someone out simply because certain members of your camp didn't think they were "cool enough"?

As far as kids at BM, it doesn't bother me as long as they aren't bothered by me. If any parents come by my camp with their kids they are likely to see a fat, balding middle-aged man sprawled out naked misting himself to keep cool. If the powers start requiring me to alter my alternative BM lifestyle to accomodate other people's children then my attitude will change.

Well, there are some kids I object to. Last year an RV pulled up and camped across the street from me on Thursday. On Friday an SUV filled with kids pulled up to that RV. I'm assuming the had to wait until school was out for labor day. Then the Polo, registered trademark, clad children pulled out their powered scooters and proceeded to have races down our street. I would have gladly seen them and their parents drawn, quartered, and made into soup.

[Stormy]

or those whom the group didn't think were cool enough to enter.

I think that may have been my quote. I am no longer with an adult theme camp. I didn't like how it seemed less and less inclusive over time. One of the reasons that I don't like the idea of "guards" at the entrances of camps is that it seems more like radical exclusion than radical inclusion. I resent the idea that adult theme camps are now being required to "employ guards at the entrances." While it doesn't particularly apply to me currently the idea bothers me. Guarding against minors seems rediculous to me as any good parent will know where their kids are making this a non-issue. Keeping out adults seems like pre-emptive judging of them. I prefer an innocent until proven guilty attitude myself.

By that's just how I feel. Plenty of camps want security guards and have them, as is their right to do so.

[Stormy]

I believe the kid-friendly burn will suppress this kind of behavior even though two years ago it was acceptable.

I am very curious as to what you meant by this.