An Open Letter to the Burning Man Community Re:2012&Tickets

[theCryptofishist]

*kisses Bbadger*

[5280MeV]

Eplaya snark is the 14th principle.

Unlike the real playa, eplaya can be downright caustic.

The difference in my reaction if someone on the real playa felt compelled to give his or her soapbox speech like above would be that I'd wander off to find something else more interesting.

For the record, I meant the above post as a joke, seeing how the playa is - by physical definition - downright caustic. This is what I figured out by wearing sandals at any rate.

I also found the playa culture to be at times obnoxious, rude, and in your face - but maybe that was a function of where I happened to camp. I actually like the fact that people say what they mean, that they don't have to gloss things over with a saccharine layer of politeness.

In the deep south, people will bend over backwards to make you feel comfortable and included, and pretend to give a shit about you, while devising various excuses to exclude or harm you. In a New York subway people will be rude make obvious that they don't give a shit about you. On the playa people will openly be themselves and what they think, and while they don't give a shit about what you think of it, they do give a shit about you and will bend over backwards to help should you really need it.

This is what I see at least, I never understood the intensely negative reaction to eplaya snark given how the actual playa can be.

[engineer2012]

I think I was direct and open in my reaction as well.

Ah well, I was thought to leave any person in his dignity (is this English? A direct translation from Dutch into English, there is probably an expression for it.) It's too easy to make someone very small. And indeed, that includes not making fun of stutterers. But it showed how easy it can be.
I truly do not understand some of the post reply's I read here. Snark you call it. I call it backstabbing. As in making a person very small. I guess this is also part of American culture. Deal with it you say. I will. By replying to it.

Europeen mentality is different compared to the US of A, you might say? I will not start the discussion on how we Europeens see the Americans, in general. Burners are an exception to this, I am sure of it. From the moment I first heard about BM, I started reading, and read a lot here on eplaya. Almost two years now. If the world comes down in December, burners will survive.

[theCryptofishist]

Burner culture can be harsh. Part of it stems from the cacophony society parentage of the group that first took the burn to the Black Rock Desert. Part of it is the harsh nature of that Desert itself. Nobody really wants to end up baby-sitting someone who's underprepared for her or his trip. Also, it's a snarky retort to the California hippie thing that was omni-present in San Francisco in the 1980s.

We give a lot of good advice on this board. (Although, not all our advice is good.) The snark serves in part to keep people from going to the burn with unrealistic idealism from going to the burn. It also gives the old hands a way to be engaged enough to spend time on the board, which means that the advice is here when needed. I don't know about Europe v. American intra-group relations. I suspect that there are European sub-groups that aren't all lovey-dovey either.
~shrug~

[Trishntek]

I just wanna know WHO OPENED THE LETTER?

[theCryptofishist]

The french letter?

[Trishntek]

The french letter?

I'm not sure what planet it's from,,,

French=cheese eatin' surrender monkeys

[FeetOfClay]

i think this discussion of "to snark, or not to snark" is very interesting.

one thing i would like to point out: many E-playans have mentioned (including in this thread) that the snarkiness on here is not a problem, because of the incredible kindness and community present on the actual Playa which offset it (ie: "people who snark u on here will be hugging u in the desert and offering u a beer; don't be so sensitive")...

however, as a newbie who has never yet attended BMan, and who had a somewhat negative experience with E-PLaya after my first post, I'd like to point out one consideration:

what if the person being snarked has NEVER BEEN to the Playa? what if he/she has been researching BMan obsessively (as I had been, and continue to do), but has no burners in their circle of face to face friends? what if that person's post (and the subsequent snarky replies) are their FIRST interaction with burners (as mine was)?

are you truly representing the radical inclusiveness of the culture when u aggressively snark someone's first post? are u welcoming them?
True, in terms of radical self reliance, the newbie needs to learn to deal with others--to pursue Burning Man for authentic reasons, and not expect all happiness and sunshine from every single burner....

but this idea of putting people in their place, or making fun of others for entertainment, I just can't understand.
to me, the anonymity afforded by the internet in general often makes us do things to others we would not do in face to face reality...

if u were at a party at a friend's house, and the person who started this thread walked into the room, you never met him before, and started pouring his heart out about burning man, genuinely sharing positive feelings, authentic epiphanies, would you tell him in not so many words: "shut the fuck up. no one's interested. learn the norms of our circle of friends before u even THINK of trying to be one of us"?

i don't think so.
and if u wouldn't do it to someone in real life, why do it to some anonymous someone on a message board?
does it really take so much effort to say "thanks for your post; welcome to E-Playa"

so what if a person's post is long winded or whatever; no one is obligated to read or reply to it.

[theCryptofishist]

if u were at a party at a friend's house, and the person who started this thread walked into the room, you never met him before, and started pouring his heart out about burning man, genuinely sharing positive feelings, authentic epiphanies, would you tell him in not so many words: "shut the fuck up. no one's interested. learn the norms of our circle of friends before u even THINK of trying to be one of us"?

I've never been good at this. I remember being trapped by that Christian lady who roamed the neighborhood with that little book of colored paper and told us that in heaven the streets would be paved with gold. And I just wasn't rude enough to leave. or even better to tell her to "Shut the fcuk up with that superstition bs." And I still feel that my time and attention are being used when ever a bore traps me in the flesh. So, I sort of zone out and try to ... well, not quite "think of England" but find something to keep my mind from being overcome by the soporific splendor. So, my issue is less that I think I should be more like real life on the eplaya, but that I feel I should be a little more like I am on the eplaya in real life. I have less than 40 years left; the less time on how the burn is going to save the world (for instance) the better...

[wh..sh]

does it really take so much effort to say "thanks for your post; welcome to E-Playa"

*shudders*

[vargaso]

Eplaya is a message board on the internet. That's pretty much all you need to know. It has exactly the same cast of characters as all internet message boards have. For instance, I play the "above it all" guy. Exactly none of the people who are rude here would be rude in person. Most just feel somewhat territorial over a virtual place they invest a lot of time and energy on. Sometime it's funny, most times it's tiresome, in between you'll find solid advice.

[Trishntek]

For anyone's FIRST POST on ePlaya to be some kind of philosophical monologue on all things Burning Man is presumptuous, narcissistic and deserving of snark. To do it TWICE is absolute egocentricity on the march!

Introductions? Saying hello? BAD MANNERS! and deserving of all the snark possible.

@feetofclay, we've all gone through the hazing and, what you describe is precisely my experience a couple years back. All I knew about Burning Man I learned here and ended up sponsoring a theme camp my virgin year. I never met another burner or even seen a theme camp until my virgin arrival on the playa.

Worst of all,,, my FIRST POST was on ROOT SOCIETY where SOP and his many socks had their way with me! So as my dear TRISH would say, "SUCK IT UP NANCY!"

[lemur]

what if the person being snarked has NEVER BEEN to the Playa? what if he/she has been researching BMan obsessively (as I had been, and continue to do), but has no burners in their circle of face to face friends? what if that person's post (and the subsequent snarky replies) are their FIRST interaction with burners (as mine was)?

are you truly representing the radical inclusiveness of the culture when u aggressively snark someone's first post? are u welcoming them?

I welcome you to attend a lecture about this subject that I will be giving on Wednesday of the event at 1pm at the north trash fence.

[oneeyeddick]

Is that the true north or the mapped north, because I think the trash fence is already booked that day.

(yup, Daft Punk again)

[BBadger]

I truly do not understand some of the post reply's I read here. Snark you call it. I call it backstabbing. As in making a person very small. I guess this is also part of American culture. Deal with it you say. I will. By replying to it.

I'm puzzled by this misuse of the term "backstabbing". You do understand that the term means "betrayal," right? Was there some kind of pact we all had going on here that I was not aware of? Even then, it would need to be a purposeful violation of that known pact to be backstabbing. It's like the abuse of the term "lie."

what if the person being snarked has NEVER BEEN to the Playa? what if he/she has been researching BMan obsessively (as I had been, and continue to do), but has no burners in their circle of face to face friends? what if that person's post (and the subsequent snarky replies) are their FIRST interaction with burners (as mine was)?

If that person is basing all of his/her impressions of something as big as Burning Man on the reaction of a small subset of people who happened to not pore over his/her sentimentalities, maybe this summer camp for grown ups (or real life for that matter) is not right for that person. There are kindergartens where one learns these kinds of social skills.

are you truly representing the radical inclusiveness of the culture when u aggressively snark someone's first post? are u welcoming them?

Radical inclusiveness is like freedom of speech: you're free and welcome to voice your opinion, but once you have voiced it that opinion is in the public discourse and not above scrutiny.

There is also this view: snark is not "discourse"; it is bullying. Maybe it is. But I'm going to partially blame the victim here too: he/she shouldn't forget that isn't kindergarten where we tattle on people calling each other names. To post something like the topic post? That's asking for snark.

but this idea of putting people in their place, or making fun of others for entertainment, I just can't understand.
to me, the anonymity afforded by the internet in general often makes us do things to others we would not do in face to face reality...

Anonymity pulls both ways. Do you expect someone to gush with something like the topic post, in person? The length of the post is testimony to the fact that the person had no feedback from the intended audience of the open letter. Face-to-face, we have nice feedback mechanisms to curb that kind of behavior: raised eyebrows, "what the fuck?"s, people telling him to "calm down man," people walking away to do something else, etc.

Some may point to our judgmental society for the lack of "real life" equivalents to the OP's post. However, I don't think most of us actually want to hear something like that from other people, and it is to all our benefit that we prevent such outbursts in all but the most extreme circumstances. "Open letters" in particular are the "real life" equivalent of standing on your soapbox and preaching to your choir with the lame idea that the powers-that-be are listening to you. Who would want that? I've done my part to society to show that such things aren't acceptable.

and if u wouldn't do it to someone in real life, why do it to some anonymous someone on a message board?
does it really take so much effort to say "thanks for your post; welcome to E-Playa"

Is that really much better? You know what a response like that is equivalent to?

"Cool story bro."

The post might as well just float on away off the first page with zero replies. Inattention: the most expert form of power. At least the OP knows someone even bothered with his or her post.

I think 5280MeV hit it on the head:

I also found the playa culture to be at times obnoxious, rude, and in your face - but maybe that was a function of where I happened to camp. I actually like the fact that people say what they mean, that they don't have to gloss things over with a saccharine layer of politeness.

In the deep south, people will bend over backwards to make you feel comfortable and included, and pretend to give a shit about you, while devising various excuses to exclude or harm you. In a New York subway people will be rude make obvious that they don't give a shit about you. On the playa people will openly be themselves and what they think, and while they don't give a shit about what you think of it, they do give a shit about you and will bend over backwards to help should you really need it.

All this reminds me of what my grandfather will do if he eats at a restaurant and it sucks ass and he has no hope for it: when asked about how the food is, he'll just tell them it's great and never return. If he sees hope he'll give them a decent critique. Not sure where "snark" would fit into it all though, as most situations don't prompt it.

We should all be disturbed when people don't respond, give boilerplate responses, or act superficially nice. That's when something is wrong. A little snark? All in good jest.

[lemur]

nice post BBadger*

[gussa]

This is a pretty interesting discussion. Regarding the whole transatlantic 'snark' thing... my own view is that it's a welcome change from the usual stuff you encounter in the States, especially on the west coast. While I'm a big fan of many of my American friends' can-do attitude, positive spirits and unwavering self-belief, it can get tiresome when it's turned up full volume. The person who posted this letter is doing precisely that, making what they think is a pretty great little speech without actually taking the time to consider the likely impact on the audience. As such it seems to be an exercise in self-promotion (look at me, I am an awesome and positive person) rather than a useful and well-thought out contribution (how can I really help things along here). But you gotta admit, their heart's in the right place, right?

After all, there is such a thing as taking the snark thing too far. Snark can be done in a way that's funny without actually resorting to being mean. Hazing is all very well, but surely it's not that hard to keep the tone light? Surely heavy-handedness belongs in the past with the Usenet boards or in the more obscure corners of the internet? If you'd like to see a good example of the right way to do it, just sit in a pub with a group of British people. Initially, you might be horrified by the name-calling or the outrageous things they accuse each other of, but you soon realise that a lot of it is deliberate exaggeration. If they are nice people you'll notice that the snark (they call it banter) actually never degenerates into nastiness; the emphasis instead is on wit, and underlying it all is often a deep affection for each other. If you're a newcomer and can't keep up or are annoying, then you'll get dropped like a hot potato, but not in a nasty way. I'm not saying this is a uniquely British trait; I'm sure there are people like this in every country in every corner of the globe. It's just that the British are very good at it. And I'd like to think its what most ePlayans are good at as well?

In one sentence: a) look before you leap, think before you speak; b) snark = good when witty, gentle but firm; c) snark = bad when unnecessary and nasty.

[FeetOfClay]

this has been an interesting discussion--and I can see many valid points made...
maybe i will soften my stance on snark? maybe become snarky someday? i dunno, that goes a bit far...

BTW: i will be waiting by the North trash fence on Wed. of the event, crying, nursing my emotional wounds, wondering why no one has showed up to lecture me as promised, and vowing "I will NEVER come back to Burning Man! Burners are MEAN!"

I'll also be sitting in a diaper of my own filth...

[junglesmacks]

I'll also be sitting in a diaper of my own filth...

That's hot.

[ygmir]

this has been an interesting discussion--and I can see many valid points made...
maybe i will soften my stance on snark? maybe become snarky someday? i dunno, that goes a bit far...

BTW: i will be waiting by the North trash fence on Wed. of the event, crying, nursing my emotional wounds, wondering why no one has showed up to lecture me as promised, and vowing "I will NEVER come back to Burning Man! Burners are MEAN!"

I'll also be sitting in a diaper of my own filth...

I'm starting to like this one

well, "north trash fence" is about 1.6 miles long..........perhaps they mean a corner?

and, don't worry, if you're out there, some friendly Perimeter folks, will at least pass by, so you're not alone.......wave, for flash them, at your discretion.

[engineer2012]

We give a lot of good advice on this board. (Although, not all our advice is good.) The snark serves in part to keep people from going to the burn with unrealistic idealism from going to the burn. It also gives the old hands a way to be engaged enough to spend time on the board, which means that the advice is here when needed. I don't know about Europe v. American intra-group relations. I suspect that there are European sub-groups that aren't all lovey-dovey either.
~shrug~

Thank you. Eyeopener . And true. In Europe there a lot of bastards too, even in my little country (the Grand Canyon alone is three times bigger) there is a difference between east and west. Coast to German border is maximum 2.5 hour drive. And the more you come closer to the German border, the nicer people will be. I mean, strangers do say hallo in the east of the Netherlands. They talk with you, are open for conversation. Thats what attracks me of the BM culture. As I am of the very west of Holland, people here are always busy, in a hurry, not taking notice of people they don't know.

And I know it will not be a picknick in the dessert and that it will be harsh sometimes. But I will be prepared. Maybe not for everything, but I'll try at my very best. I do hope to meet some people who are open and helpfull to first timers like me.

[engineer2012]

I truly do not understand some of the post reply's I read here. Snark you call it. I call it backstabbing. As in making a person very small. I guess this is also part of American culture. Deal with it you say. I will. By replying to it.

I'm puzzled by this misuse of the term "backstabbing". You do understand that the term means "betrayal," right? Was there some kind of pact we all had going on here that I was not aware of? Even then, it would need to be a purposeful violation of that known pact to be backstabbing.

One can see it as betrayal if that person is making some comment that hurts his or her feelings. It was certenly not expected while writing the story. I think. Maybe it is just me but I do sence a bit of giving the blame to firts timers for stealing your event and for the ticket situation. But you know best, you have participated the event lots of times. Teach me, make fun of me, but don't patronize me. Please.

[MisguidedMonkey]

Here is my point of view on this “snark is OK” argument.

I live among the poor and have spent a lot of time as a volunteer working with kids and adults who have been abused by their parents and for whom every day is a struggle against the harshness of life in a messed up world. I have seen violence of every kind and even murders in the streets. I have seen the price that is paid, both by the individual and society as a whole, for this abusive behavior. Many are so traumatized that it is improbable that they will ever recover.

In my opinion, there is no place in this world for unkind words, put-downs, insults, name-calling, hazing, hurling of epithets, or any other form of violence, verbal or physical. I do not see any benefit to it whatsoever.

It is especially irksome to see people who have set themselves up as representatives of Burning Man engaging in this sort of activity. While it may bring a good laugh amongst themselves and some sort of feeling of superiority and worldliness, from my perspective it looks rather immature.

I understand that honesty is preferable to deceit, that plain speaking is a virtue, and that sometimes it is necessary to say something sharp to protect your loved ones from running metaphorically into the street. I also understand black humor and kidding among friends. But, in my opinion, these do not grant license to just heedlessly say whatever thought impulsively pops into one’s mind. Especially to a stranger.

Burning Man means a lot to me. As someone who doesn’t fit in to this world very well, it provides a place of belonging and acceptance. It helps me feel that I am OK even with all my deviance and flaws. It provides a space where I can express myself as I truly am, without the fear of being smacked down and “put in my place.” It is a “home,” if you will, where I am, if not exactly liked, at least tolerated. This is what makes Burning Man so special, so different from all the other experiences life has to offer. In return, I try to extend that tolerance to others, whoever they are or wherever they may be on their life’s journey. Some are wise, some are foolish, but that’s not for me to judge. My job is to find whatever it is that I have in common with that person and nurture that connection to the best of my ability.

Am I perfect? Of course not. I mess up in more ways than I care to think about. But I do believe that Burning Man can change the world, because it has changed me. Is that saccharine? Maybe. But if Burning Man is nothing more than a party, or a place no less callous than the New York subway, perhaps we should ask ourselves “What is the point?”

[theCryptofishist]

It is especially irksome to see people who have set themselves up as representatives of Burning Man engaging in this sort of activity.

While this is a computer message board that is supported by the llc, few of us have set ourselves up as representatives of Burningman. I'd say the mods have, in a limited sense, and action girl, and maybe some of the department representatives--at least some times.
In so far as I am a "representative" of burningman, I am a representative of a certain rough honesty, of not dipping everything in sugar syrup, and of not allowing anyone to define my experience.

Burning Man means a lot to me. As someone who doesn’t fit in to this world very well, it provides a place of belonging and acceptance. It helps me feel that I am OK even with all my deviance and flaws. It provides a space where I can express myself as I truly am, without the fear of being smacked down and “put in my place.” It is a “home,” if you will, where I am, if not exactly liked, at least tolerated. This is what makes Burning Man so special, so different from all the other experiences life has to offer.

Why don't you tell us what burningman "means" when you've been a couple of times? It means very different things to different people. It can be a week of bar crawl. It can be a week of yoga and meditation practice. It can mean a week of looking at all sorts of art. It can mean a week of fooling strangers into feeding you. It's not all benevolent, and it's not uniformly pretty.

Anyway, for what it's worth, this is perhaps the worst place to look for the best of eplaya. Try Greeter's Station and Open Discussion. This sub-forum has been a pile of crap for months, and we're tired and bitter and we have to go through the same bits of drama over and over in our seeming futile to educate the newbs in what we believe are truths of the event...

[lemur]

FUCK YER DAY!

[BBadger]

I truly do not understand some of the post reply's I read here. Snark you call it. I call it backstabbing. As in making a person very small. I guess this is also part of American culture. Deal with it you say. I will. By replying to it.

I'm puzzled by this misuse of the term "backstabbing". You do understand that the term means "betrayal," right? Was there some kind of pact we all had going on here that I was not aware of? Even then, it would need to be a purposeful violation of that known pact to be backstabbing.

One can see it as betrayal if that person is making some comment that hurts his or her feelings.

No, one cannot see it as "betrayal" because that is not "betrayal". The fact that you're not even attempting to frame this as a violation of unspoken rules indicates to me that you have no idea what these terms mean.

It was certenly not expected while writing the story. I think. Maybe it is just me but I do sence a bit of giving the blame to firts timers for stealing your event and for the ticket situation. But you know best, you have participated the event lots of times. Teach me, make fun of me, but don't patronize me. Please.

Yes, it is just you. Your "sense" follows the same pattern as your misuse of "betrayal": seeing what you want to see, not what is there. It can only be your dysfunctional "sense" because there is zero in the above posts that even imply blaming first timers.

Don't rely on your sense anymore. You don't have intuition. Instead, spend a little time reading some of the other posts before mouthing off about something you're so obviously misinformed about.

No, I won't "teach" you, because this falls into the category of "stupid questions" that waste the time of the person questioned because the questioner obviously didn't put much effort into his prior research. Yes, we can expect you to do some of your own homework when entering unfamiliar social situations for which you have no prior understanding--and before you start making misinformed, ridiculous assumptions much in the way the OP did when he thought to post his goofy open letter.

If not, expect a lot of well-deserved snark coming your way.

[theCryptofishist]

A "stab in the back" is a betrayal. It implies a prior relationship, in which the "stabbed" party could reasonably expect the "stabber" to be in the same corner, to have the same interests. You can't betray someone three minutes after meeting.

(Is anyone else finding the repeated phrase "stab in the back" to be reaching for Godwin's law?)

[vargaso]

Here is my point of view on this “snark is OK” argument.

I live among the poor and have spent a lot of time as a volunteer working with kids and adults who have been abused by their parents and for whom every day is a struggle against the harshness of life in a messed up world. I have seen violence of every kind and even murders in the streets. I have seen the price that is paid, both by the individual and society as a whole, for this abusive behavior. Many are so traumatized that it is improbable that they will ever recover.

In my opinion, there is no place in this world for unkind words, put-downs, insults, name-calling, hazing, hurling of epithets, or any other form of violence, verbal or physical. I do not see any benefit to it whatsoever.

It is especially irksome to see people who have set themselves up as representatives of Burning Man engaging in this sort of activity. While it may bring a good laugh amongst themselves and some sort of feeling of superiority and worldliness, from my perspective it looks rather immature.

I understand that honesty is preferable to deceit, that plain speaking is a virtue, and that sometimes it is necessary to say something sharp to protect your loved ones from running metaphorically into the street. I also understand black humor and kidding among friends. But, in my opinion, these do not grant license to just heedlessly say whatever thought impulsively pops into one’s mind. Especially to a stranger.

Burning Man means a lot to me. As someone who doesn’t fit in to this world very well, it provides a place of belonging and acceptance. It helps me feel that I am OK even with all my deviance and flaws. It provides a space where I can express myself as I truly am, without the fear of being smacked down and “put in my place.” It is a “home,” if you will, where I am, if not exactly liked, at least tolerated. This is what makes Burning Man so special, so different from all the other experiences life has to offer. In return, I try to extend that tolerance to others, whoever they are or wherever they may be on their life’s journey. Some are wise, some are foolish, but that’s not for me to judge. My job is to find whatever it is that I have in common with that person and nurture that connection to the best of my ability.

Am I perfect? Of course not. I mess up in more ways than I care to think about. But I do believe that Burning Man can change the world, because it has changed me. Is that saccharine? Maybe. But if Burning Man is nothing more than a party, or a place no less callous than the New York subway, perhaps we should ask ourselves “What is the point?”

Internet message boards are probably not the place for you, then.

[RedHeaven]

Yin and Yang represented again in Burning Man. The balance of snark and softness. Not too naughty, not too nice. Or just a good balance of both!

New York (or UK) meets San Fran. Hippie and Punk (and Yup or whatever) alike. Lets make thunder.

In my experience, most message boards are fairly whirly places and thats understandably so especially with jokey crazy Bernie's Man, but a good check in of Yin aint ever such a bad thing....A spooonful of sugar helps the medicine go down the medicine go down blah blah blah

[engineer2012]

"Look at me! Look at me! I'm making my big statement and want everyone to read it, even though it's not even going to be sent to the declared addressee."

Good fuck do I hate open letters. I thought we were done with these ridiculous first-post soapboxes?

That's how it started