What constitutes "low income"? (talk amongst yourselves)

[Mitch]

L'il Reality Check: Amtrak from NY to Reno is $212 per person each way, so $848 for 2 people round/trip. Then you have to get to and from the Playa, maybe free, maybe not. Certainly not free, getting to and from Penn Station in NY (lady indicates she's upstate). If they are planning to spend $1,400 including 2 tix, that implies a $620 travel budget, making it significantly cheaper to come by car.

[EspressoDude]

let's see. I had $50 earned income on a W-2 last year for working on a pyro show....

[International Incident]

I've been following this post for a while - it upsets me to see people whinging that the poor don't "deserve" to come to BM or that poorer people should prioritise the rent over BM.

Every now and then I look at my bank balance and have to stop doing the things I want to do because the money has all been spent. On those days I get a pit pissed off and think about my pay and wish it was higher. Then I come on here and read about the miserable amounts of money lots of people who come to BM (or want to come to BM) earn - and it's a massive reality check. I've been down to my last dollar a few times and it sucked - but I was fortunate enough to know that within a few weeks the bank balance would be OK again. Then I realise (again) I am a middle class wanker.

People that don't earn very much need a holiday way more than me (but man do i love my holidays...)

Thanks to the OPs who told their financial stories - I hope others found it a reality check like I did.

I hope those that need a low income ticket get one.

[BBadger]

You can live materially "rich" as a poor person, it just takes longer. Money buys you nothing more than time. Save your money, go to Burning Man, or buy whatever luxuries your heart desires after you've accumulated enough.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of poor people who are chronically poor, not because of dire straits or because they're held down by "the man", but because they think they can live materially rich as a rich person does--i.e. having lots of discretionary income. Those are stupid poor people and I have no sympathy for their self-imposed "plight".

[Simon of the Playa]

you're right badger, i choose to be poor.

i give away most of my cash every week.

i share whatever i got....ask anyone i know, if i have something, you can have half, or a portion depending on numbers.

i could be rich again, i could chase a piece of paper all day, instead i make enough when i need it to give it to those i love or those that supply me with my necessities.

you may question my need for cigarettes and medicine but i dont.

i pay 350 a month for a very small room to put my bed.

my workshop is rent free, i am lucky.

i dont eat much. I rarely drink alcohol.

i cannot produce financial documents and will not apply because of two things...i am resourceful and will find my way home. Secondly, there are people out there who are in worse financial condition than me who want tickets, of this i am certain.

but because i dont "participate" in the folly of unbridled capitalism i am somehow not trying hard enough?

walk a mile in my ten year old boots that i have fixed twice instead of buying new ones and get back to me on that.

i agree. those that waste what little money they have on what seems to be indulgences should not complain.

but then again, i'm sure they same the same thing about us....wasting all that time and money and energy to burn a fucking stick man in the wasteland with a bunch of freaks.

so who are the stupid ones? everybody i guess. It all depends on what you think is stupid.

if you really want to go to burning man there is nothing stopping you except yourself, period.




PS...this does NOT mean i like buddha in any way shape or form

[lucky420]

and I can see why you have so many people who love and befriend you Simon.

[theCryptofishist]

and fishy, i can only surmise, but i bet life with scott even under "impoverished" conditions was wonderful, and Rich, in it's own way.

Yes. It was wonderful. Stressful at times, but wonderful.

[Simon of the Playa]

poor and in love beats wealthy and miserable.

EVERY TIME.


and by love, it can simply mean this...to love life...to love whatever it is that drives you on, it could be anything.

a person, an idea, a tree, a smell, whatever...makes no difference.

the love of knowledge, truth and beauty.

without these things, you can buy all that you want but will never be content with your life.

gimme gimme poverty, if i can be who i want to be.

[vargaso]

If you don't have dependent kids and you're able-bodied/minded, you can't be poor, only broke. And "broke" can be a good thing if you're living the way you want to live. It's my opinion that to apply for low income tickets if you're in this situation is a bit silly, but that's just my opinion. Now, if you have kids and/or aren't able-bodied/minded, that's a whole other story.

[Simon of the Playa]

i think that being disabled is and should be open to criteria, and is truly subjective.


i also think having kids has nothing to do with anything.


so, what is it you are trying to say, or are you just pissing and watching the stream?

[lemur]

i think that being disabled is and should be open to criteria, and is truly subjective.


i also think having kids has nothing to do with anything.


so, what is it you are trying to say, or are you just pissing and watching the stream?

i think he is trying to say something about these, without saying it..



apparently being without children and not disabled means that bootstraps are extremely effective!!

and i guess, redefining it as 'broke' instead of poor makes the avoidance of referring to the bootstraps more palatable for vargaso ....that way he's not offending poor people.. he's just offending broke people..and we all know its OK to diss on broke people!! (saying stupid stuff about poor people is just downright offensive!! avoid that!)

(Edit: this is all just my opinion, of course, so, dont take any offense or criticize it, cuz its just my opinion, after all.. opinions are just opinions..)

[BBadger]

Hmm, maybe "broke" or "little discretionary income/savings" is the term I'm looking for, not "poor" as that is a function of what you're valuing.

[lemur]

i guess one could be both poor AND broke!!!


HOW ABOUT THEM APPLES

[vargaso]

Able-bodied/minded people with no dependents have only themselves to worry about and every opportunity to choose whatever it is they want to do. It's EASY to support only yourself and have a little discretionary income left over. As Simon states, he pays $350 a month for a nice room and so can pursue whatever goal he chooses and still have a roof over his head. I remember this well, my choices before kids affected me and me alone, I could fuck off for 6 months living on top ramen and have a blast, then get a job at minimum wage for awhile (not saying you're fucking around). I was broke, sure, but not poor.

Poor, to me, is having people to support (kids, parents, whomever) and very little money to do so, with no possibility of quitting a job, no possibility of going to school on account of not having time or money, and so very little chance to improve one's income, or even worse, not having a job and needing to find some way to put food on the table and spend time with one's dependents. It's feeling like you're in a hole with no way out and people depending on you.

I have ZERO sympathy for the former when crying "low income." Not that I resent or pass judgement on their choice to pursue dreams and goals that may not pay well. More power to them, in fact, do it up, live your dream while it only affects you. But I think asking for special consideration in that case is unseemly.

Edited to add:
Eh, I'm mostly spouting off. I just think it's weird for unfettered, able-bodied/minded grown-ups to ask for special consideration to go to an arts festival.

[tattoogoddess]

im to poor/broke to afford boots.... now what?

[lemur]

sock garters.

[tattoogoddess]

SEXY!!!!

[snardy]

Able-bodied/minded people with no dependents have only themselves to worry about and every opportunity to choose whatever it is they want to do. It's EASY to support only yourself and have a little discretionary income left over. As Simon states, he pays $350 a month for a nice room and so can pursue whatever goal he chooses and still have a roof over his head. I remember this well, my choices before kids affected me and me alone, I could fuck off for 6 months living on top ramen and have a blast, then get a job at minimum wage for awhile (not saying you're fucking around). I was broke, sure, but not poor.

Poor, to me, is having people to support (kids, parents, whomever) and very little money to do so, with no possibility of quitting a job, no possibility of going to school on account of not having time or money, and so very little chance to improve one's income, or even worse, not having a job and needing to find some way to put food on the table and spend time with one's dependents. It's feeling like you're in a hole with no way out and people depending on you.

I have ZERO sympathy for the former when crying "low income." Not that I resent or pass judgement on their choice to pursue dreams and goals that may not pay well. More power to them, in fact, do it up, live your dream while it only affects you. But I think asking for special consideration in that case is unseemly.

Edited to add:
Eh, I'm mostly spouting off. I just think it's weird for unfettered, able-bodied/minded grown-ups to ask for special consideration to go to an arts festival.

LOL. This is the most ridiculous argument.

What about full time students? Those who work in the non-profit world and make very little? Those who work with the poor & indigent simply because they want to make the world a better place?
Keep readin' Atlas Shrugged, broski.

[vargaso]

Able-bodied/minded people with no dependents have only themselves to worry about and every opportunity to choose whatever it is they want to do. It's EASY to support only yourself and have a little discretionary income left over. As Simon states, he pays $350 a month for a nice room and so can pursue whatever goal he chooses and still have a roof over his head. I remember this well, my choices before kids affected me and me alone, I could fuck off for 6 months living on top ramen and have a blast, then get a job at minimum wage for awhile (not saying you're fucking around). I was broke, sure, but not poor.

Poor, to me, is having people to support (kids, parents, whomever) and very little money to do so, with no possibility of quitting a job, no possibility of going to school on account of not having time or money, and so very little chance to improve one's income, or even worse, not having a job and needing to find some way to put food on the table and spend time with one's dependents. It's feeling like you're in a hole with no way out and people depending on you.

I have ZERO sympathy for the former when crying "low income." Not that I resent or pass judgement on their choice to pursue dreams and goals that may not pay well. More power to them, in fact, do it up, live your dream while it only affects you. But I think asking for special consideration in that case is unseemly.

Edited to add:
Eh, I'm mostly spouting off. I just think it's weird for unfettered, able-bodied/minded grown-ups to ask for special consideration to go to an arts festival.

LOL. This is the most ridiculous argument.

What about full time students? Those who work in the non-profit world and make very little? Those who work with the poor & indigent simply because they want to make the world a better place?
Keep readin' Atlas Shrugged, broski.

Oh, I'm no Rand-ian, and as I've stated, it's awesome for unfettered people do pursue those things, but it don't cost squat to support only yourself. And if you're a two-income no kid couple (DINKs, in the common vernacular), it's even easier. I went back to school full-time while working full-time with a wife and kid at age 27, totally doable albeit tough. Full-time student only, or maybe with part-time job and no dependent? Sorry, while I wish that person success, he/she will get no sympathy from me when crying "low-income" or especially "poor." You're temporarily broke.

Edited to add:
And I'm only talking about the low-income thing for Burning Man. I'm a full believer in intelligently regulated safety net programs for actual living expenses when needed, but to cry "poor" because you want to go to fucking Burning Man and you're able-bodied/minded and have no dependents? Boo fucking hoo.

[tattoogoddess]

Oh, I'm no Rand-ian, and as I've stated, it's awesome for unfettered people do pursue those things, but it don't cost squat to support only yourself. And if you're a two-income no kid couple (DINKs, in the common vernacular), it's even easier. I went back to school full-time while working full-time with a wife and kid at age 27, totally doable albeit tough. Full-time student only, or maybe with part-time job and no dependent? Sorry, while I wish that person success, he/she will get no sympathy from me when crying "low-income" or especially "poor." You're temporarily broke.

Edited to add:
And I'm only talking about the low-income thing for Burning Man. I'm a full believer in intelligently regulated safety net programs for actual living expenses when needed, but to cry "poor" because you want to go to fucking Burning Man and you're able-bodied/minded and have no dependents? Boo fucking hoo.

Wow really!? I work one job 30 hours a week and it breaks down to about $2.50 a hour a so. I am 50% commission. Why? Because that is how it works in the hair world unless you work at a slave job like cost cutters. So because of this I some how am a asshole and should pay the $390?

Seems to me as if you have a stick up your ass and do not know what it is like to really live everyday on your last dollar damn near.

[phoenix808]

he must be part of the 1% ROTFL! good luck to everyone! its never a choice to be poor!

[vargaso]

Oh, I'm no Rand-ian, and as I've stated, it's awesome for unfettered people do pursue those things, but it don't cost squat to support only yourself. And if you're a two-income no kid couple (DINKs, in the common vernacular), it's even easier. I went back to school full-time while working full-time with a wife and kid at age 27, totally doable albeit tough. Full-time student only, or maybe with part-time job and no dependent? Sorry, while I wish that person success, he/she will get no sympathy from me when crying "low-income" or especially "poor." You're temporarily broke.

Edited to add:
And I'm only talking about the low-income thing for Burning Man. I'm a full believer in intelligently regulated safety net programs for actual living expenses when needed, but to cry "poor" because you want to go to fucking Burning Man and you're able-bodied/minded and have no dependents? Boo fucking hoo.

Wow really!? I work one job 30 hours a week and it breaks down to about $2.50 a hour a so. I am 50% commission. Why? Because that is how it works in the hair world unless you work at a slave job like cost cutters. So because of this I some how am a asshole and should pay the $390?

Seems to me as if you have a stick up your ass and do not know what it is like to really live everyday on your last dollar damn near.

Whether or not I have a stick up my ass is up for debate, but I certainly know what it's like to live every day on your last dollar. I spent my early 20s doing that with no kids and had a blast. I spent the rest of my 20s doing that with a kid and it sucked ass, so I went back to school while working in a literal factory cutting paper for a stationary company. You're young with no kids and so can take the high road and not work "at a slave job like cost cutters." You're making a choice. I GUARANTEE you'd take the bad horrible slave job in 2 seconds if you had someone depending on you. Again, go for it while you can, if you work hard you'll build up a clientele and can either rent a chair at a high-end salon or strike out on your own, in both cases you'll make good money. After years of work, paying your dues, like the rest of us. Do I think you deserve special consideration so you can go to an arts festival? Fuck no.

[vargaso]

he must be part of the 1% ROTFL! good luck to everyone! its never a choice to be poor!

Oh, sometimes it certainly is, depending on your circumstances. Are you an artist? Well, there you go. More power to you for creating art, but if that's you're full-time gig, well, I don't have much sympathy if you're claiming "poor." A shit-ton of programming jobs out there, son.

[lemur]

YEAH YOU TELL EM vargaso !!! ALLL YOU NEED TO DO TO GET OUT OF POVERTY IS TO WORK HARD, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, AND PAY YER DUES..

COME ON!! THIS IS HOW IT WORKS!!! I DONT KNOW WHY ITS SO HARD FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD TO UNDERSTAND!!

[vargaso]

YEAH YOU TELL EM vargaso !!! ALLL YOU NEED TO DO TO GET OUT OF POVERTY IS TO WORK HARD, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, AND PAY YER DUES..

COME ON!! THIS IS HOW IT WORKS!!! I DONT KNOW WHY ITS SO HARD FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD TO UNDERSTAND!!

It's absolutely how it works if you're in the US. Everyone's mileage will vary, of course, and it can take years. And I'm only applying this to able-bodied/minded people with no dependents. And also, I'm only applying this to crying "poor" so they can get cheaper tickets to an arts festival. I fully support safety net programs for actual living expenses. I mean, whatever, the tickets are there, might as well try for them. I just have zero sympathy for it, and this thread is about discussing what constitutes "low income". I've yet to hear a convincing argument (or any argument at all, really) for why it's valid for an able-bodied/minded grown-up with no dependents to qualify for a low-income status to go to an arts festival. Aside from bootstrap images. Yes, I realize grabbing gifs is standard debating fare for a BBS, but you know, I had hoped for something a little more rigorous.

[lemur]

I've yet to hear a convincing argument (or any argument at all, really) for why it's valid for an able-bodied/minded grown-up with no dependents to qualify for a low-income status to go to an arts festival.

why do you need a valid reason ..or an argument for it to exist ?

sounds like yer turning it into some bullshit status thing 'OH THEY DONT DESERVE IT!! WHY SHOULD THEY!!! GIVE ME A GOOD REASON.. ITS AN ARTS FESTIVAL THEY SHOULD STAY HOME AND WORK IF THEY CANT AFFORD IT'


fuck, its a GOOD THING... do we need a valid reason for cupcakes being good ?




a valid reason for cute fuzzy pets being good?




or a valid reason for flowers being good?



or a valid reason for eating turkey on thanksgiving ?



or a valid reason for reading books ?



WHATEVER MAN.

low income/scholarship is a GOOD THING... it doesnt need no stinkin valid reason to exist, it doesnt need to meet anyones approval ...its just good... no amount of rigorous debate can change that!!

if you dont see it... well.. maybe you just dont like good things!!







(i bet martha didnt need no stinkin boot straps to put those boots on)

[vargaso]

Whatever, I'm an asshole. Some very necessary jobs pay shit, and the people doing those jobs should get a break. What galls me is when kids in their 20s with no dependents who are either full-time students or pursuing their art full-time claim to be poor. That's not poor, that's a choice. And this thread was for the purpose of discussing what we think "low income" means, so I would think valid arguments are in order, but oh right, internet message board, must not forget that. Here's a cat picture:

[Stephendragonfly]

Vargaso,
In reading your comments it seems to me that you have been pretty lucky in life.
I hope that continues for you.
I hope you never get laid off of your job because of an overseas merger.
I hope you are never told that you are either overqualified or a poor fit with the twenty-something culture for the jobs you get interviews with.
I hope you never find that your skills become outmoded or outsourced.
I hope you never have the annoyance of having someone steal your identity, screw over your credit rating, and force you to declare bankruptcy.
I hope you never have to watch your retirement savings dwindle to nothing because some monetary engineer on Wall Street made a bad bet.
I hope you are always able to continue to live the "good" life.
I hope that serious disease or injury never slow you down.
I hope that you live to a ripe old age without ever knowing the pain of losing someone you love.

I also hope that you learn more sympathy for those less fortunate than you.

[theCryptofishist]

It's absolutely how it works if you're in the US.

Um. recent studies contradict this...

[vargaso]

Vargaso,
In reading your comments it seems to me that you have been pretty lucky in life.
I hope that continues for you.
I hope you never get laid off of your job because of an overseas merger.
I hope you are never told that you are either overqualified or a poor fit with the twenty-something culture for the jobs you get interviews with.
I hope you never find that your skills become outmoded or outsourced.
I hope you never have the annoyance of having someone steal your identity, screw over your credit rating, and force you to declare bankruptcy.
I hope you never have to watch your retirement savings dwindle to nothing because some monetary engineer on Wall Street made a bad bet.
I hope you are always able to continue to live the "good" life.
I hope that serious disease or injury never slow you down.
I hope that you live to a ripe old age without ever knowing the pain of losing someone you love.

I also hope that you learn more sympathy for those less fortunate than you.

I feel incredibly lucky and grateful. However, I have been laid off before, twice in fact. Once at a dotcom and once as a high school teacher, had to switch industries both times after to get another gig, the second time doing a lot of self-training to get up to speed in some programming languages because no one wants an English major who "knows HTML." I have had my identity stolen and it did screw with my credit rating. I dont have any retirement savings at this point. I've been "comfortable" for about 3 years, first time in my adult life, didn't get there until I was 40. Everyone loses the ones they love. I admit I've been very lucky physically (knock on wood).

As I've stated, I'm very sympathetic to people struggling financially, I was one of them for 20 of my adult years. My ONLY gripe is when able-bodied/minded adults with no dependents cry "poor" so they can get cheaper Burning Man tickets. And yes, it's my belief that in general, it's FAR FAR easier to support only yourself and no dependents. Getting laid off in your 40s and above is fucking tough, no doubt.