Craigslist Douche Bags - So it begins

[Colonel Monk]

When you put it that way .. . . . that sounds like a great idea!

That is exactly my plan.

What if they have a gun and are planning on robbing you? It has happened.

Very good point, and though I don't watch TV, I feel that a disclaimer might be in order......

"I'm an Anti-Professional....Please, do not attempt what you read here..."

Y'all, I get what trilo was saying and what AntiM was saying too... I'm not a typically aggressive person, however....

If a non-burner has a ticket for the event, and I do not -- and this individual, for ANY REASON has a ticket for sale above face value....

Well, I will not hesitate to liberate it. No, I will not kill for it, nor really would I hurt anyone for it.

I might though attend the meeting with a shillelagh or something, at least.

And, I will pay them face value of $390 - so it's not stealing!

Sorry, I know this is not what we would do in BRC but I'm not afraid to fight the enemy.

[ygmir]

WTF is with some of you?

Violence? or even the threat of violence?
Because, someone "breaks the rules", or does something you don't like?

How about you run a red light, and a concerned citizen pulls you out of your car and beats you?

you want to meet them, with a weapon in hand (maybe not intending to use it, but, how would anyone know?), and say "I'd not hurt anyone or kill for it.
At the point you show up armed, you've escalated, and have lost control.

So, what are you going to do, when the scalper, (asking 500 bucks) lets you look at the ticket, you hand him 390, and he says "no"? It's his business, if he breaks the rules. But, if you take it, and not for an agreed sum, I'd bet the cops would side with the scalper. Not to mention, if you refuse to return it when asked, you may be committing a property crime (in the eyes of the police) and the scalper may well be justified in beating you, to get his property back.
Are you willing, to engage in physical, potentially deadly, confrontation?
If not, don't go there looking for it.

Violence? Really?

How about, as others suggest, get the numbers, ID, report them to the ORG to see what can be done.

Choose your battles wisely, IMHO.

How, are you, and your attendance, any more important, that the scalpers attempts, to do what he wants? Really, not just emotionally, but, it comes down, IMHO, to which of you is more "deserving"?

I'm not condoning scalping, in any way or form.
But, I am decrying the thought of harming others, for the sake of a few dollars (the difference between scalping and face value).

If a person is desperate to go, one has to decide where their morals and integrity end, to go.
I'd pay 100 bucks (over face value) or whatever, to not have a fight, hurt or get hurt, jail, or worse. But, you have to decide, if you want/need to go that bad.
Perhaps, the decision, is really yours (the Burner), as to, how far will I go, to attend?

It confuses, and saddens me, folks would consider physical violence, as a solution to this.

[jkisha]

Good post Ygmir. I wouldn't have been near as polite.

[hotmess]

QUESTION: If you purchase a ticket from someone and you want to confirm the tickets what is the best way to go about it? I assume that if they can not give you a confirmation email or proof of confirmation then it is a scam. Also, if you do purchase from someone and they give you the confirmation number can you then change the confirmation number after you change the shipping address so the original purchaser can't change the shipping address back to them?

[ygmir]

QUESTION: If you purchase a ticket from someone and you want to confirm the tickets what is the best way to go about it? I assume that if they can not give you a confirmation email or proof of confirmation then it is a scam. Also, if you do purchase from someone and they give you the confirmation number can you then change the confirmation number after you change the shipping address so the original purchaser can't change the shipping address back to them?

seems there's a thread, or maybe an article on the main site, that deals with this.
Sorry, I don't know the answer, but, you might find it.

[mshaman]

@Colonel Monk, I'm not one to judge because I share your desire to give such losers the pimp-hand at every opportunity, BUT, this is the same tactic used by the mob... not stealing, extortion. Explicitly. It is punishable by law if it can be proved (difficult, if you're good at it, as evidenced by the fact that the mob is alive and well).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extortion

Meeting them in person, looking at their ticket numbers, and reporting them on the spot via smartphone and getting their tickets cancelled in front of them would be very emotionally satisfying.

I'm searching for systematic ways to negate these people en mass... I haven't found a reliable method yet because it can be so difficult to link a ticket purchaser to an ad without their cooperation. Just flagging every CL ad is one option. There is no consequence to you, as far as I know, for flagging it for the wrong reason (it didn't violate CL's terms of use, but rather our own sensibilities about scalping).

It frustrates me that we're in this mess because the board's ticket policy had such disregard for the need to align the individual's interest with the community's interest. But we're here, and we must now find ways as individuals and as a community to compensate for that mistake, and hope that the board members are more able to recognize the importance of such alignment in the future.

There is no systemic disincentive to StubHub for brokering BM tickets. It isn't illegal, and they don't stand to lose their investment... they have none. But they do stand to make a commission if they create a transaction. Thus they will list them regardless of the legal agreement between BM and the primary ticket purchaser.

There is no systemic disincentive to scalpers... if they get found out, they lose the profit, but still get their money back. All they're out is a little time. The only way to create a real disincentive to a scalper is to make him be unable to re-sell the ticket and lose his money on it. But this should have been done in the first place through non-transferable/STEP transferable tickets. To attempt it retroactively by "freezing scalpers out" (if it were possible), would only ensure that every scalped ticket was wasted and created value for no one, except perhaps the originator, BRC, Llc, because they sold a ticket and didn't have to pay to haul anyone's poop off in exchange. Given that the LLC members have an emotional investment, not just a financial investment, I suspect they would consider it a loss as well.

So I'm creating disincentives to scalpers as best I can by trying to cost them time and profit, since I can't cost them their original investment or legal retribution. I'm flagging the ads I can, trying to get specific, actionable information when I can, etc. The best way I've thought of is to try to get a copy of the confirmation email from the seller. "I know what the email looks like because I saw my camp-mates'... please forward so I know you're for real." Forward it to the BMOrg and you're done. Tickets cancelled.

[mshaman]

QUESTION: If you purchase a ticket from someone and you want to confirm the tickets what is the best way to go about it? I assume that if they can not give you a confirmation email or proof of confirmation then it is a scam. Also, if you do purchase from someone and they give you the confirmation number can you then change the confirmation number after you change the shipping address so the original purchaser can't change the shipping address back to them?

If you have enough info to verify the ticket, you have enough info to get it cancelled and put back into the STEP pool. Just sayin'.

[wh..sh]

yggy, best post EVER!

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

[hotmess]

Seems like the seller is unwilling to give me any info regarding the confirmation. I know what the email looks like as I saw my friends. Won't even send out a confirmation with con # blacked out so I can be sure name and email are on the ticket. I think i am gonna flag this person.

[theCryptofishist]

I'm not sure they can cancel a "fulfilled" ticket. I'm also pretty sure that if you had a genuine ticket at the gate, you'd be let in--even if that ticket has been canceled. There's just no way for gate staff to know this.

[mshaman]

I'm not sure they can cancel a "fulfilled" ticket. I'm also pretty sure that if you had a genuine ticket at the gate, you'd be let in--even if that ticket has been canceled. There's just no way for gate staff to know this.

Right, so evangelists should act now, while all scalpers have got is a confirmation number. Assuming one is an evangelist on this subject.

[ZaphodBurner]

WTF is with some of you?

Violence? or even the threat of violence?
...
Violence? Really?
...
It confuses, and saddens me, folks would consider physical violence, as a solution to this.

It saddens Rick Santorum that there are homosexuals. That's his problem. We're not all pacifists. If we were, we'd all be victims. It saddens me that there are scalpers.

If somebody tries to sell me a scalped ticket, I'll take the ticket from him--which is an academic exercise because he probably won't be holding the actual article--for inspection, and give him the ticket value, plus a little extra for his original shipping/handling fee. He doesn't get the ticket back. If he wants it back, it will be up to him to initiate violence. That would be a profoundly bad idea.

I WOULD have considered taking the information from the ticket, flagging him and getting the sale canceled. But since we can only buy one ticket from the STEP program and my wife gets it, that means I'd be ineligible to buy from the Org the ticket that I liberated from a scalper. So, that option is effectively off the table.

[ygmir]

WTF is with some of you?

Violence? or even the threat of violence?
...
Violence? Really?
...
It confuses, and saddens me, folks would consider physical violence, as a solution to this.

It saddens Rick Santorum that there are homosexuals. That's his problem. We're not all pacifists. If we were, we'd all be victims. It saddens me that there are scalpers.

If somebody tries to sell me a scalped ticket, I'll take the ticket from him--which is an academic exercise because he probably won't be holding the actual article--, inspect him, and give him the ticket value, plus a little extra for his original shipping/handling fee. He doesn't get the ticket back. If he wants it back, it will be up to him to initiate violence. That would be a profoundly bad idea.

I'd bet, as you're explaining that to the cops, you'll still be in cuffs. Not sayin' it's right, just sayin I bet that's how it'd shake out. In the cops eyes, you took something, you didn't pay the agreed price, and, you won't give it back.
Burners will not be judging you there, it'll be cops, who don't care how "Burney" or not, you both are.

and, yeah, 'cause your tough.......I bet none of them are as tough .......and well, you can blame "them" for initiating violence, for trying to get "their" property back (because they don't agree to sell it for "your" price). But I'd submit, you'd be escalating it by doing so.

again, I don't condone the scalping. Neither, do I agree with your vigilante method, that will work against you, IMHO.

[ZaphodBurner]

yggy, best post EVER!

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

My grandfather was Prisoner of War who had been shot down over Germany and dumped off in a concentration camp where he saw men, women and children executed en masse while SS guard dogs ripped others to pieces. He raised me, and always told me that there were so many slaves and inmates they could have easily overwhelmed the guards and fought for their own freedom but they didn't, so not only did they die by the millions, young men from all around the world had to die by the millions for them as well.

So, I don't buy that quote. Especially because he also said:

"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."

"Democracy necessarily means a conflict of will and ideas, involving sometimes a war to the knife between different ideas. "

Interestingly enough, you'll never see a hippie put either of THESE on a bumper sticker, and most will try to deny that he actually said them.

[ZaphodBurner]

I'd bet, as you're explaining that to the cops, you'll still be in cuffs.

What cops? Is that like when people tell you if you smoke weed, the cops are going to arrest you?

In PDX, the police are more worried about the gang shootings every other day and the fact that a woman was recently beaten by six adolescent youths (racially-motivated. She was white) on the transit system while people watched. Not only that, but, a bus driver was recently beaten by some woman over a fare conflict and her punishment was 90-day suspension from the bus. That suggests to the world if you're not going to ride the bus for three months, you can a bus driver and get away with it. Another woman had soda poured her baby stroller, again on the MAX, by an 11-year-old wielding a gun and showing off to his gang buddies. THAT KID'S 16 y.o sister was murdered by another gang-banger, (and the mom's out on facebook dressed in stripper clothes, flashing gang signs with her son, for real.)

The police aren't going to go Code 3 because some scalper didn't get his full unfair price.

Listen... Trying to be nice, play fair and be courteous to my fellow man is why my wife and I only requested two tickets in the lottery and figured if we didn't win, we'd get tickets in the secondary sale. I'm still committed to playing fair. I will pay the ticket value printed on the ticket.

My bigger fear is that the scalper had the ticket number and will simply call the BORG and report that somebody tried to scalp a ticket with the #... He's got my money, and the ticket is nuked.

yeah, 'cause your tough.......I bet none of them are as tough ..

What makes you think I'd be alone?

[mshaman]

Seems like the seller is unwilling to give me any info regarding the confirmation. I know what the email looks like as I saw my friends. Won't even send out a confirmation with con # blacked out so I can be sure name and email are on the ticket. I think i am gonna flag this person.

Or, you could just summarily flag every BM ticket post on CL in an effort to make them unsellable via Craigslist, like a denial of service attack, a cyber sit-in. Won't get them cancelled, but it's easy and fast and frustrates the seller.

@ZaphodBurner... I agree with the sentiment, but be careful, I don't want to have to post bail for my burning brethren... legally, extraction of good or services by coercion is extortion, and extraction of a good or service by deception is fraud.

So if the ticket gets into your hands without the seller willingly agreeing to the price, a crime has been committed. It's explicitly outside the law to go there... but difficult to prove or prosecute if there was no physical violence (do with that nugget what you will, let your conscience be your guide...).

To the law, it doesn't matter what's right. It doesn't matter to the cop that scalping is despicable, because it's legal, or that taking the ticket from the little punk was "right" because it's illegal. Even if you're not a pacifist, even if you're active and aggressive in shutting these losers down, I still figure that it's easier to do it by legal means, say trying to get the ticket cancelled, because that doesn't require their consent to be legal. If one stays inside the line on his resistance, he can resist again and again.

[hotmess]

Flagged the seller. Total scammer!!!!!!! Simple google of his email address came up with a bunch of hits saying that he is well known. Geeze. THis is what we are now up against. I am with you. Flag all CL post in an effort to make them unsellable.

[ZaphodBurner]

@ZaphodBurner... I agree with the sentiment, but be careful, I don't want to have to post bail for my burning brethren... legally, extraction of good or services by coercion is extortion, and extraction of a good or service by deception is fraud.

So if the ticket gets into your hands without the seller willingly agreeing to the price, a crime has been committed. It's explicitly outside the law to go there... but difficult to prove or prosecute if there was no physical violence (do with that nugget what you will, let your conscience be your guide...).

Thank you for your kindness, and you have an awesome point: "Difficult to prosecute if there was no physical violence."

You cannot attack somebody over a property dispute. If a Radio Shack employee punches somebody who's trying to steal something from him, that's Battery, and probably even more of a crime than the theft itself.

As long as you don't make threats (Assault, in Oregon) or use force (Battery), and he tries to actually attack you, he's looking at a much more difficult court battle and set of charges than you are. For example, in Gresham some tweakers broke into an AT&T store and tried to run off with cellphones. Some jackass pulled a gun and fired at them...missed... and was subsequently arrested, had his CHL and license confiscated, etc.

By the way, I don't advocate violence. When I see a rattlesnake or an alligator, I neither kill it nor judge it nor judge it for what it is it simply because it's dangerous. I just don't fuck with it. I would rather hug you than argue with you.

[jkisha]

I think your grandfather would be ashamed of you right now.

yggy, best post EVER!

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

My grandfather was Prisoner of War who had been shot down over Germany and dumped off in a concentration camp where he saw men, women and children executed en masse while SS guard dogs ripped others to pieces. He raised me, and always told me that there were so many slaves and inmates they could have easily overwhelmed the guards and fought for their own freedom but they didn't, so not only did they die by the millions, young men from all around the world had to die by the millions for them as well.

So, I don't buy that quote. Especially because he also said:

"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."

"Democracy necessarily means a conflict of will and ideas, involving sometimes a war to the knife between different ideas. "

Interestingly enough, you'll never see a hippie put either of THESE on a bumper sticker, and most will try to deny that he actually said them.

[lucky420]

ZaphodBurner

In PDX, the police are more worried about the gang shootings every other day and the fact that a woman was recently beaten by six adolescent youths (racially-motivated. She was white) on the transit system while people watched. Not only that, but, a bus driver was recently beaten by some woman over a fare conflict and her punishment was 90-day suspension from the bus. That suggests to the world if you're not going to ride the bus for three months, you can a bus driver and get away with it. Another woman had soda poured her baby stroller, again on the MAX, by an 11-year-old wielding a gun and showing off to his gang buddies. THAT KID'S 16 y.o sister was murdered by another gang-banger, (and the mom's out on facebook dressed in stripper clothes, flashing gang signs with her son, for real.)

Was thinking about visiting Portland this summer if I don't go to the playa, now not so sure...

[moonrise]

In addition to vigorous flagging; what about posting countless ads stating "ALL BURNING MAN TICKET ADS WILL BE FLAGGED INSTANTLY IF OFFERED FOR OVER FACE VALUE" all over CList where the tickets are being sold for over face value.

There are a bajillion pissed off burners just sitting at desk jobs and I have a feeling they'd all be more than happy to assist.

Simply drive the scalpers crazy with frustration.

is there a way to be alaerted of these ads on CList? If there is, I'd like to know...I have a desk type job....

[ygmir]

yggy, best post EVER!

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

My grandfather was Prisoner of War who had been shot down over Germany and dumped off in a concentration camp where he saw men, women and children executed en masse while SS guard dogs ripped others to pieces. He raised me, and always told me that there were so many slaves and inmates they could have easily overwhelmed the guards and fought for their own freedom but they didn't, so not only did they die by the millions, young men from all around the world had to die by the millions for them as well.

So, I don't buy that quote. Especially because he also said:

"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."

"Democracy necessarily means a conflict of will and ideas, involving sometimes a war to the knife between different ideas. "

Interestingly enough, you'll never see a hippie put either of THESE on a bumper sticker, and most will try to deny that he actually said them.

I don't say, violence is "never" the answer. If attacked, yes, a violent reaction is reasonable.
and, I beleive you're drawing false equivalences with your analogous examples to Wh..sh's "an eye for an eye........" statement.


the prisoners rising against their tormentors, is not revenge, it's escape and survival.

I your first "red" quote, seems conflicted: "it's better to be violent, if there's violence in our hearts". well ok I see that as a statement, but how does the rest tie into it? cloaking impotence with non violence, it seems, would also be a stand alone statement.
I also don't see how either apply to this discussion.

I fail to see how your second "red" quote applies here, either.

the only thing I can see in common, is the calls and aggrandizement, if not encouraging violence.

I can see, you filled with "righteous indignation", and note in your other post, a frustration with society in general, and it's unfairness and violence.
I agree with much of this, in that society has become "raw", and the ner-do-wells seem to be taking over. I agree, with violent reaction, to violent aggression, or threat thereof.

But, I just feel, you are suggesting a very "over the top" set of actions, regarding scalpers.
I also feel, you're suggesting being "above the law" in your vigilantism, when in this case, lawful means, IMHO, would work.

just some thoughts.

[Smenkare]

yggy, best post EVER!

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

My grandfather was Prisoner of War who had been shot down over Germany and dumped off in a concentration camp where he saw men, women and children executed en masse while SS guard dogs ripped others to pieces. He raised me, and always told me that there were so many slaves and inmates they could have easily overwhelmed the guards and fought for their own freedom but they didn't, so not only did they die by the millions, young men from all around the world had to die by the millions for them as well.

So, I don't buy that quote. Especially because he also said:

"It is better to be violent, if there is violence in our hearts, than to put on the cloak of nonviolence to cover impotence."

"Democracy necessarily means a conflict of will and ideas, involving sometimes a war to the knife between different ideas. "

Interestingly enough, you'll never see a hippie put either of THESE on a bumper sticker, and most will try to deny that he actually said them.

I appreciate that this bothers you. But a scalper isn't an SS trooper with a MAUSER mowing down unnarmed non-combatants. It's just a non-violent parasite that's temporarilly inconvenienced you, me and we don't know how many other people. It's nothing big, it's something that happens every year.

How did your grandfather get out of the POW camp BTW? Did he lead a rebellion of inmates and slaves, and overthrow the guards?

[ZaphodBurner]

I think your grandfather would be ashamed of you right now.

You don't know fuck about my grandfather. You don't speak for him.

Was thinking about visiting Portland this summer if I don't go to the playa, now not so sure...

A million people or so in the metropolitan area are NOT victims of crime each day. It is an unfortunate fact that you must be cautious on the MAX. Portland is a wonderful city with a large Burner community.

How did your grandfather get out of the POW camp BTW? Did he lead a rebellion of inmates and slaves, and overthrow the guards?

I hope that's a legitimate question and not snark.

He was rescued by Patton's army, who liberated the camp as soon as they heard about it. He was left at the camp because he and three other "kriegies" who had not eaten for days captured and ate a chicken raw. The other three died, and the Germans took him to KZ Mauthausen, expecting him to die. A couple of days later, before the army showed up, a jew marching to his own disposal looked over him and said "Cheer up, yank, you'll be home soon" and an SS guard shot the man in the head and let the dogs have the body. The next day, the SS all fled, leaving the dogs to roam among the camp and fend for themselves. The dogs were the only source of food, and he managed to capture, kill and eat one that had been eating the dying prisoners.

When he was liberated he was 6'1" and weighed 79lbs. It would not have been possible for him to overthrow the guards. He died in 1995 from organic destruction caused by severe malnutrition, complicated by Hepatitis C that he got from a VA blood transfusion. All for having to go fight to save some pacifists.

@wraith: GOOD POINT!

[wraith]

@ZaphodBurner... I agree with the sentiment, but be careful, I don't want to have to post bail for my burning brethren... legally, extraction of good or services by coercion is extortion, and extraction of a good or service by deception is fraud.

So if the ticket gets into your hands without the seller willingly agreeing to the price, a crime has been committed. It's explicitly outside the law to go there... but difficult to prove or prosecute if there was no physical violence (do with that nugget what you will, let your conscience be your guide...).

Thank you for your kindness, and you have an awesome point: "Difficult to prosecute if there was no physical violence."

You cannot attack somebody over a property dispute. If a Radio Shack employee punches somebody who's trying to steal something from him, that's Battery, and probably even more of a crime than the theft itself.

As long as you don't make threats (Assault, in Oregon) or use force (Battery), and he tries to actually attack you, he's looking at a much more difficult court battle and set of charges than you are. For example, in Gresham some tweakers broke into an AT&T store and tried to run off with cellphones. Some jackass pulled a gun and fired at them...missed... and was subsequently arrested, had his CHL and license confiscated, etc.

By the way, I don't advocate violence. When I see a rattlesnake or an alligator, I neither kill it nor judge it nor judge it for what it is it simply because it's dangerous. I just don't fuck with it. I would rather hug you than argue with you.

Depends on your state. In Texas, for example, you can shoot and kill over property.

[lucky420]

ZaphodBurner,
That is a very touching story about your grandfather...

Sorry for the ot but that just touched my heart and felt the need to tell you.

Okay, carry on...

[Herring]

Seems like the seller is unwilling to give me any info regarding the confirmation. I know what the email looks like as I saw my friends. Won't even send out a confirmation with con # blacked out so I can be sure name and email are on the ticket. I think i am gonna flag this person.

This seemed to be the most helpful thing I could find on the main site:

http://blog.burningman.com/2011/08/news ... ket-scams/

[hotmess]

Thanks I just read this awhile ago. Thanks for sharing.

ALSO,if you see someone with the email [removed; send info about scammers to partiserv at burningman dot com] AVIOD HIM. TOTAL BS SCAMMER. Flagged him on CL and wanted to be sure and share with everyone here.

[mshaman]

Thanks I just read this awhile ago. Thanks for sharing.

ALSO,if you see someone with the email bigshot 102 at gmail dot com AVIOD HIM. TOTAL BS SCAMMER. Flagged him on CL and wanted to be sure and share with everyone here.

You mean [email removed] is a scammer? >> [email removed] <<? *waits for spam bots*

[hotmess]

Yes that dude. Total scammer!!!!!!! beeee booooo bap booooop beeeeep boooo beeeeeeeeeep