How about giving theme camps a certificate for tickets?

[lemur]

pretty much everything at burning man started with some people just showing up..


it might take all year or more to plan some of the things people are doing now but..

it wasnt always that way..


larry brought a crudely built man to a beach and burned it.. it eventually got organized

stevemobia brought some lanterns and lined them up on the ground, it eventually got organized

david best decided to change what his art project was for, making it a memorial.. "THE TEMPLE" that we know of now.. it eventually got organized

the airport came about after people brought planes, it eventually got organized

rangers came about cuz ppls seeing a need for that.. it eventually got organized

dpw came about cuz someone had to build it, and eventually got organized

etc

etc

etc

it is all just ideas, people have them.. sometimes they mutate into huge things with huge infrastructure..

but there aint much more to it than that.. burning man is a place where people come and do shit, some shit.. sometimes big shit, sometimes small shit..

burning man isnt only theme camps, it isnt only art projects..it isnt only mutant vehicles.. we may have those!! but .. the thing that has largely made it what it is is how people interact with eachother... how they share ideas and how they use em.. not the objects they bring, or build..

[ZaphodBurner]

Fuckin' miracle, isn't it? People just show up and, meet for the first time on the playa, and BAM! The Temple happens

that is how the temple started.

Is that what happened in 2004?

[lemur]

is it how it happened in or 2007 ? 2011 ?


no. did it have to be ? no.


it started as an idea.. the guy repurposed an art project intended to be something else..hey!! now its a memorial ...

did he spend time figureing out how to bring it there before the playa? sure! did he need help building it? sure!!

but it might as well have been a single sheet of plywood.. once it became a memorial it didnt matter how it looked (hell it was made out of recycled reused trash as it was).. the idea was important


same goes for The Man Himself

it didnt matter that it took time to build the man, or help to get it out there to the beach.... the idea of burning it was important......... not that it was built or brought it to the beach... the same could have happened with no man and no fire and no help... people got together and others saw what was happening and came and joined in, much enjoyment was had


Conceptual art is art in which the concept(s) or idea(s) involved in the work take precedence over traditional aesthetic and material concerns.


at some point some people seemed to have started to objectify burning man.. turning it into a thing about OBJECTS .. about SOUND CAMPS or ART PROJECTS ..

sure, its great to see those, burning man LLC likes to say these things are the core of the event now..

but that really isnt what has kept it going.. we can all see art pretty much anywhere.. we can all go to dance clubs pretty much anywhere..

the 'something' that is happening at burning man doesnt emanate from the theme camps, or the mutant vehicles or the art projects ..

the something that keeps people coming back every year comes from ... us!!!

and ya know, all we need is us ...some tents, some water and some food...itll still be burning man.

[Minxy]

Ugh, I agree with lemur. Dammit!

I pretty much spend ZERO time at theme camps. The only theme camp time I spend is when I go visit friends at Terminal City or Barbie Death Camp or Tuna Guys. I've danced at large sound camps twice in my years burning.

My burn happens because of interactions. I love spending time out on the playa wandering around. Randomly talk to a person, offer them a beer...chat for a while. People wander into my camp and we feed them and make new friends. Our neighbors offer us crab omelettes.

I do love the art. But for me, my burn really is made by the people. Not theme camps, not sound camps and honestly not even the art.

[tamarakay]

Yeah? How big do I have to be to be a theme camp?

Can I be a monkey hut theme camp where I bring my monkey hut and shitty vodka to the playa?

I have a monkeyhut theme camp that I've worked hard on for this year. I'm damn proud of it too. Who in the hell are you to act like its any less important than anything else? Screw you, but of course if you come by Dye with Dignity at barbie death camp you can paint\dye a silk scarf and have some Texas wine or juice. Bring your own damn vodka and fuck your day.

[ZaphodBurner]

Ugh, I agree with lemur. Dammit!

I pretty much spend ZERO time at theme camps. The only theme camp time I spend is when I go visit friends at Terminal City or Barbie Death Camp or Tuna Guys.

*sigh*

You JUST said you spend ZERO time at theme camps.

I do love the art.

That makes sense, it being an art festival.

The fact is, people like Black Rock City the way it is. That's why tickets sold out. Not because there are going to be 50,000 people wandering around offering each other booze and conversation.

[vargaso]

Ugh, I agree with lemur. Dammit!

I pretty much spend ZERO time at theme camps. The only theme camp time I spend is when I go visit friends at Terminal City or Barbie Death Camp or Tuna Guys. I've danced at large sound camps twice in my years burning.

My burn happens because of interactions. I love spending time out on the playa wandering around. Randomly talk to a person, offer them a beer...chat for a while. People wander into my camp and we feed them and make new friends. Our neighbors offer us crab omelettes.

I do love the art. But for me, my burn really is made by the people. Not theme camps, not sound camps and honestly not even the art.

Same here. I seem to spend more and more time in the city every year and less time on the playa. And zero time in theme camps except to dance, and I'm quite sure even if the larger sound camps can't make it out there, there are a 1000 DJs/smaller camps waiting to take their place. . My favorite thing is riding around the streets and coming across a smallish camp doing their thing (whether it's food or music or massage or whatever), and stopping and hanging out and chatting. Or in our smallish camp, either giving out food or messing with our neighbors and cranking the sound system up and getting the drums going so that people walking by come over and start dancing. That's the best. I fucking love it.

Frankly, the larger theme camps are a bit off-putting at times, as they tend to be set up in a "circle the wagons" pattern, which I understand logistically, but it doesn't make for easy conversation. That's not to say they're not important, just that I don't believe they're essential to the event. I feel more for the individuals in the theme camps who won't be seeing a lot their friends out there this year, but then we're all in the same boat, so I don't see why they should get special consideration. As for their "services," well, like I said, I hardly partake. Smaller camps are where it's at, for my money.

[vargaso]

Sorry, double post.

[Minxy]

Ok, ZaphodBurner, if you want to get technical. I have spend less than 1% of my burn time at theme camps. Better?

I don't even consider my time visiting my friends at the two camps I mentioned "theme camp time" as I would have gone to visit them wherever they would have camped.

The two sound camp visits, yes, that would count as theme camp time. So less than 1%. Must be precise, mustn't we?

Ugh, I agree with lemur. Dammit!

I pretty much spend ZERO time at theme camps. The only theme camp time I spend is when I go visit friends at Terminal City or Barbie Death Camp or Tuna Guys.

*sigh*

You JUST said you spend ZERO time at theme camps.

I do love the art.

That makes sense, it being an art festival.

The fact is, people like Black Rock City the way it is. That's why tickets sold out. Not because there are going to be 50,000 people wandering around offering each other booze and conversation.

[ZaphodBurner]

and ya know, all we need is us ...some tents, some water and some food...itll still be burning man.

OK. That makes me feel better. We'll bring out own beer and food, skip building art, stop volunteering at the airport, abandon the mutant vehicle in my backyard, save the money and wander around talking to all the pretty hipsters, but, then, what's the point of trucking the whole show all the way out to the Black Rock Desert? Why not just do it in San Francisco and spare Nevada the environmental and highway damage?

[5280MeV]

Yeah? How big do I have to be to be a theme camp?

Can I be a monkey hut theme camp where I bring my monkey hut and shitty vodka to the playa?

I have a monkeyhut theme camp that I've worked hard on for this year. I'm damn proud of it too. Who in the hell are you to act like its any less important than anything else? Screw you, but of course if you come by Dye with Dignity at barbie death camp you can paint\dye a silk scarf and have some Texas wine or juice. Bring your own damn vodka and fuck your day.

Fuck Yea!

[lemur]

and ya know, all we need is us ...some tents, some water and some food...itll still be burning man.

OK. That makes me feel better. We'll bring out own beer and food, skip building art, abandon the mutant vehicle in my backyard, save the money and wander around talking to all the pretty hipsters, but, then, what's the point of trucking the whole show all the way out to the Black Rock Desert? Why not just do it in San Francisco and spare Nevada the environmental and highway damage?

we neednt build anything.

burning man IS the art.




In conceptual art the idea or concept is the most important aspect of the work. When an artist uses a conceptual form of art, it means that all of the planning and decisions are made beforehand and the execution is a perfunctory affair. The idea becomes a machine that makes the art.

perfunctory: adj: (of an action or gesture) Carried out with a minimum of effort or reflection. performed merely as a routine duty; hasty and superficial


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual_art

[vargaso]

and ya know, all we need is us ...some tents, some water and some food...itll still be burning man.

OK. That makes me feel better. We'll bring out own beer and food, skip building art, abandon the mutant vehicle in my backyard, save the money and wander around talking to all the pretty hipsters, but, then, what's the point of trucking the whole show all the way out to the Black Rock Desert? Why not just do it in San Francisco and spare Nevada the environmental and highway damage?

I understand feeling frustrated, but I don't believe you think no art, no music, no interesting camps will make it out there, only that YOUR camp in its entirety will not. I TOTALLY understand that frustration, I'm feeling it to, both because I don't have a ticket currently, and because even if I did, more than half my camp does not. Quite a few of the larger theme camps know and/or are in contact with each other, I'm willing to bet networking has already begun to determine who has tickets and how resources can be pooled amongst the camps to bring cool shit to the playa. I hope to see the results of that, I KNOW it will be different and I BET it's gonna be really cool.

[theCryptofishist]

I don't know if there's anything I can add to this conversation. But it does remind me of why I love some of you so much.

[5280MeV]

I don't have anything to add either, but it reminds me of something I came across reading the manual for this shindig:

Other people tell me, "It's not cool anymore!" These are the hipsters. You know, I preach the virtues of Bohemia, but I know the vices. The vices, the two greatest fears that motivate the arch hipster, are, one, that they won't get invited to the party, and, two, that they'll get lost in the crowd. And, if that's your issue, I can't help you there. I think when anyone participates they're cool. Any other standard is a form of affectation. We're radically inclusive. Far too much time is wasted in subcultures feeling superior to outsiders. I've never felt comfortable with in-groups or with the secret totems and subtle signs that are used to exclude people.

But our city is bigger, it's true. And people are afraid that when things get big, they'll be denatured. Because, in a mass society, whenever anything gets big it becomes commodified, right? It's taken away, and then it's not real anymore. So we have this superstitious dread that it's gonna happen to us again. That's what the punks thought. That's why they were so emphatic, so angry about that. But I don't agree with their anger, and I don't agree with Hakim Bey's paranoia about the system.

I think that can be overcome. Listen, in the history of mankind, there have been vibrant, living cities and networks of culture that connected people and things on a grand scale. It's called civilization! We've just been living in a mass culture so long that we can't believe in civilization anymore. And I frankly confess to you it's one of my goals to prove to people that civilization is possible.

Now, this will only work if it is in the context of community, because community is the crucible that creates culture, and a civilization only works if it's ordered by culture. So what we've done is focus on ways of creating social structures that foster connection. You see, it's not really a quantitative problem, it's about the quality of relationship between people. We've found if you can just create such context for this interconnection, people will begin to self-organize. And once they do that, you've got social fabric. And it can get really big, and it doesn't have to be alienating.

[lemur]

this sounds a lot like what burning man is trying to do, to me..

Conceptual art also reacted against the commodification of art; it attempted a subversion of the gallery or museum as the location and determiner of art, and the art market as the owner and distributor of art. Lawrence Weiner said: "Once you know about a work of mine you own it. There's no way I can climb inside somebody's head and remove it." Many conceptual artists' work can therefore only be known about through documentation which is manifested by it, e.g. photographs, written texts or displayed objects, which some might argue are not in themselves the art.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conceptual ... ion_of_art


decommodification, leveling the playing field of art and taking away barriers for entry, the idea of being a 'burner' spreading out beyond the playa itself, ..and a thing that you cant easily describe through photos or texts... isnt this what burning man is trying to be ? a big conceptual art project? "an experiment" ?

Decommodification
Our community seeks to create social environments that are unmediated by commercial sponsorships, transactions, or advertising.
http://www.burningman.com/whatisburning ... iples.html

Radical Inclusion
Anyone may be a part of Burning Man.


Q. What is Burning Man?
A. Burning Man is an annual experiment in temporary community dedicated to radical self-expression and radical self-reliance.
http://www.burningman.com/whatisburning ... at_is.html


Trying to explain what Burning Man is to someone who has never been to the event is a bit like trying to explain what a particular color looks like to someone who is blind.
http://www.burningman.com/whatisburningman/

[ZaphodBurner]

I understand feeling frustrated, but I don't believe you think no art, no music, no interesting camps will make it out there, only that YOUR camp in its entirety will not.

My camp in its entirety probably will. My wife and I cleaned deer guts out of our van and replaced our radiator on the side of the road in Lakeview to get to Burning Man. We'll get there. I'm talking about the totally awesome fire-breathing shit I love about Burning Man that can ONLY be done in the desert.

But I -do- want to tell my sparring friends here that I respect what is being said about it being "us", about the interactions. I fully appreciate that. That's the "it" that can't be explained to virgins or coworkers, captured in a YouTube video or defined by any of the hundreds of writers, photographers, videographers who have attempted it. The "it" is what we're battling so passionately to preserve before "it" goes the way of Woodstock.

I happen to believe whatever "it" is has something to do with all the huge, crazy, shit in the desert, and a "theme camp" is just a playa expression for an organized team of people who get together to create something awesome. Otherwise, we could all save money, rent an entire resort hotel and have this discussion around a giant, private swimming pool.. ...holy shit, I have an idea...

[RouseMouse]

Our average camp size is about 35, and we have 3 tickets from the lotto and 2 from a friend?
Hoping for the rest of the group.

The thought that first timers will replace established theme camps is bluntly crazy.

They could volunteer at the camps but a large camp has a group that works together well and most importantly knows what needs to be done and how to do it.
and most every camp is different in their needs. We have a custom shade tent I made and it is really nice to have people who know how to set it up without teaching them everything each year. For me to do it all myself would be nuts, even if with a couple founders of the camp.

Last year we ( with crews of 6-8) gave out about 1500 hand cranked shaved ice snowcones (200 to 350 an afternoon) under our 1600sf of public shade tent, and had at least 4 art projects, if you don't count our purpose made shade structure. Projects ranging from an animated dragon on a HPV tin lizzy to a 30 foot lit, sculpted landmark tower.
We also generally have 4 rangers and an emergency services member in our camp and strive to benefit BRC and our neighbors.

Our first year we had 3 people and a hastily built sculpture on a HPV trike.

We took time to grow and invest in our camp, with some projects growing or being finished over a few years and although Virgins will hopefully have new ideas and will follow through on them, we really had no idea what to expect at BRC and our naivete did add to the mess out there much to our distress after the fact when we found things that took to the wind.

There were about 1000 theme camps last year from what I heard, if with an average of 25 per camp that's 25,000 tickets.
I don't know the true average number per camp but it's a lot of tickets fast.

Should Theme camps get tickets first? I don't know.

It does seem the ticket should be tied to the buyer, (with the ability to transfer the name via step or such system, since I have been buying for guests and they don't always go as planned.)
Simply requiring you to state who's card bought the ticket at the gate or requiring the card or ID to match name on the credit card would help with scalpers. My guests know who gave them the ticket and should be able to tell you the name on my card. ( And it ain't RouseMouse!)

I most like the idea of personalized tickets, which could also be printed out at home like other E tickets or EEpasses are now and the owner matched to the picture and bar code on the ticket.
As in; you submit a picture when buying the ticket, the picture is put on the ticket and in the database pulled up by the bar code at gate. They better match you and each other. Then like the EE passes they are removed from the valid list.

System could also be used to earmark a ticket for early entry.

A double ticket gets you, with your picture, and another guest in the gate.

Not sure how you buy your friend in the next state a ticket unless you have a ( facebook?) picture of them.
If you want to sell your ticket you "return it" for a refund, scrapping the bar code and picture from data base and transferring it to the ticket pile or to a designated buyer with a new picture and code and at a controlled price and fee.

Tickets could be reprinted if lost, but since they get canceled and have your face, you could have fifty in your car and still only get in once.

Printed on 8.5 x 11 there is plenty of room for warnings against selling or buying without returning and resubmitting new picture and other ticket info.

That's my four bits..
sorry it's long winded,
I'll think of more later?

RouseMouse Of Contraptionists

[theCryptofishist]

The thought that first timers will replace established theme camps is bluntly crazy.

I didn't read past this. But, I don't think that first timers will "replace" theme camps--I just think that if the camps don't go in this year, that it will be a different year, and that taking a chance on this difference is a very good idea.

[RouseMouse]

Cripto, please read the rest?

[vargaso]

A little perspective maybe? The sky has always been falling. We've always been at war Eurasia. $65!!

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a ... _id=0003CJ

From 1998:

YOU MUST BRING ENOUGH FOOD/WATER/SHELTER TO SURVIVE 1 WEEK IN THE DESERT; COMMERCIAL USE OF IMAGES, VENDING, FIREARMS, PYROTECHNICS PROHIBITED, U.S. $65.00.
What has happened to Burning Man? An anarchist celebration turned into a media art extravaganza? No more McSatan, no more drive by shootings. Just good, well behaved cyber-yuppies in designer costume. A SOMA beer bash on the desert. Winabego digerati elite. No fireworks, no guns. Nudity and sex still ok? What about drugs? Will there be drug police this year?

Larry Harvey talks about community. But a community with no commerce. Just "official" ice and coffee vendors run with the efficacy of soviet style central planners. Burning Man provides communal sanitation facilities but omits the traditionally supplied city services of water, power and trash pickup.

I miss the public meeting space provided by McSatans. Would "FOOD NOT BOMBS" suffer they same fate in Black Rock City as they have on the streets of San Francisco?

Larry Harvey has a point about commercialization and desert survival. No one prevents anyone from going out on the desert any weekend and doing the survival thing. Burning Man is more than individual desert survival. Larry says it's community. But what is community? Who decides what kind of community? Who decides the rules of Burning Man? Do the participants of the community have a voice in the rules? Burning Man is certainly not Disneyland where you cannot walk on the grass (there is no grass to walk on) - but what rules are really necessary and who decides? Do the event planners have and want the total responsibility of making the rules? How do communities create their conventions? If Burning Man is to be more than just an event to be consumed by it's participants it would seem to require more involvement by participants in the formation of community.

[jkisha]

I for one would be in favor of that, but only because I head up a theme camp.

Me too. Hell even the super bowl gives season's ticket holders priority for the big game.

[gyre]

Don't go to theme camps?

What the fuck?


There's no set number of people needed for theme camps.
Just depends on the premise.
There have been good ones run by one person.


Zaphod, I suggest you clean the deer guts out of the van before heading to the playa.

[Pipey]

maybe larry H. and the LLC REALLY want a man base 1000' feet tall... with 1 million participants..

he isnt scrapping building a man because he doesnt have the resources to do a 1000' foot tall one...and he isnt scrapping burning man because every person on earth cant attend.. he does what is possible considering the resources available.

why should theme camps be any different? why should they only see their participation as what they /want/ to do, or even, what they /have/ been doing..... maybe that 300 person theme camp isnt possible this year.. ive seen plenty of smaller camps that were awesome.. why not make a smaller camp?


theme camps should be able to live within their means...doesnt everyone else?

apologies for what may be a daft question, but aren't some of the folks who build "the man" each year granted artist tickets/early arrival? if not, and they are forced to throw their name in the hat & fundraise whatever $$ it requires to sustain the construction, materials, and crew (of maybe just 20-30% of the steering group), then they would truly be on an even "radically inclusive" playing field with all theme camps. and are there any 300 person theme camps at BM? that seems an excessive number. big believer in adapting/morphing and moving forward and that's what will be done, but some of these arguments us vs. they/bashing on theme camps when they too are only trying to create/build something from nothing alongside all other burners, seems maybe NOT radically inclusive.

[BBadger]

I for one would be in favor of that, but only because I head up a theme camp.

Me too. Hell even the super bowl gives season's ticket holders priority for the big game.

I may be wrong, but I think Dr. Pyro statement was more to jokingly point out his conflict of interest in his support for it, not really any sense of true entitlement to tickets.

[late]

Lol some vehement responses here on both sides. Feel free to be angry at me for voicing a thought, but this is just that, a thought, fear not I won't be instating this like some mad overlord lol. Flames are unnecessary though. I do appreciate how strongly you feel about this though.

I think I may be misspeaking by using "theme camps" in the original post. I more meant anyone who has previously gone to great effort to contribute. I really feel for those people not being able to go.

Myself, again, I'm unconnected to any theme camp or group thus far and even if I do join friends it will be unofficially. My thought would exclude myself possibly as well.

I've been to our regional "Lakes of Fire" which doesn't have nearly the constructions and projects of the full burn, and it was still fantastic. But it hardly attracts many tourists like BM itself does.

Anyways, I can see how this idea, like any, could be abused (hey, why didn't OUR group get certificates!!) for sure. Anything can be abused. Maybe there IS no good solution.

[late]

Tying ID's to tickets, nevermind I'm sure there's a thread devoted to that already I'll go look.

[Mojojita]

You are making the false assumption that everyone that volunteers for Artica, Greeters, etc, live in a theme camp. They don't. Specifically, Greeter's camp has a very small portion of greeters that actually camp there.

how you are able to make such assumptions about people who are planning on attending is beyond me..

so it goes like this in your brain?

'virgin -> not in a theme camp -> spectator who wants to see naked people

No. I guess you fucked that assumption all up, didn't you?

People aren't considerate of how the Temples, Arctica, Soul in the Machine, HookahDome, the BRCPO or the airport gets built, or who scrapes the litter out of the toilets before the JotS says "Fuck it, we're done, the contract has been violated and this event is over." Most of the Greeters I know didn't get tickets. Are you going to volunteer to be a Greeter for a day, are you going to help clean beer bottles and light sticks out of the shitters, or what?

If you think 40,000 hipster attendees walking around talking to each other is awesome, there are a shit-ton of places more convenient and less ecologically-fragile than the Black Rock Desert. It's just that they don't allow flamethrowers, or fire-breathing viking boats with stripper poles on them.

Attendees in their tents and RVs are THE most fascinating element of Burning Man, aren't they?

[lemur]

You are making the false assumption that everyone that volunteers for Artica, Greeters, etc, live in a theme camp. They don't. Specifically, Greeter's camp has a very small portion of greeters that actually camp there.

and who can blame them? that bell IS annoying!

[Mojojita]

You are making the false assumption that everyone that volunteers for Artica, Greeters, etc, live in a theme camp. They don't. Specifically, Greeter's camp has a very small portion of greeters that actually camp there.

and who can blame them? that bell IS annoying!

Oh yes, and the screams from the spankings!!