How many tickets are you registering for?

[motskyroonmatick]

One. Down from 2. Main sale. Any price.

[Minxy]

Bunch of greedy fucking bastards. Register for what you and your immediate family need, no more. If the event degenerates to hoarders and scalpers over-buying just in case, it probably is not worth attending. If like Minxy sez, buying tickets for folks that don't get their act together until too late, well it should really be too late for them. They really are not 'self-reliant'. And to those that buy a bunch and scalp them on ebay with enuff mark-up to cover their own event costs, you are people I do not want to camp anywhere near.

I understand your point but we buy extra tix every year, usually for the same folks who don't have the money after Christmas to get tickets on ticket day; it's sort of a tradition. That way they can pay it off in payments. Often people get cash back from their taxes and if Will and I have the cash to help them out we don't mind doing it.

Plus we usually give at least one, usually more, gift tickets to other friends (or my daughter this last year) who just can't swing the cost of a ticket but have all the camping gear from years past.

Additionally I really dislike this lottery method. I personally think it's unnecessary and a lame method to make up for the ticket company not being able to handle the load they "should" be able to on ticket day. I strongly disapprove of the lottery and I don't particularly feel any loyalty to it or any incentive to helping make it work. I think it's dumb...that's just my opinion.

I will continue to buy the tickets we always buy to assist our friends/camp mates in need. I'm betting a lot of people will do the same, whether they admit it publicly or not. I'm not "gaming" the system for personal gain; I have never sold a ticket for over face...in fact if anything we would undersell to broke friends.

I actually agree with you, for the most part, in regards to people buying extra tickets to make money. And I have for years chastised my "flaky" friends/campmates who always seem to not be fully prepared and self-reliant, however I do still love them and try to help them out when possible. When it's not possible (last year) then I say sorry, too bad, you should have had your shit together. *shrugs*

[trilobyte]

Why in the world would your friends need to become more self-reliant, Minxy, when you've got their backs?

If there was no limit on the number of available tickets, and no chance tickets would sell out in a short period of time via first come, first serve I'd be against a random draw too.

[Minxy]

Why in the world would your friends need to become more self-reliant, Minxy, when you've got their backs?

Good point, trilo! However when this is something I can do to help them (they do other things to assist us during the year) it seems a fair trade of resources and energy. Very good point, however!

[BBadger]

Though I am a firm believer in self-reliance, sometimes those people that we cover for won't attend if they can't get the ticket, and, well, I'd like those certain people to attend.

[trilobyte]

I agree with you both, it's a double-edged sword. Encourage self-reliance vs. support and nurture our friends.

[Minxy]

Yup.

[lemur]

if everyone hoards the tickets because its a 'tradition' to buy way more than they personally need theyll most likely be fucking people over.

in the past the tradition didnt fuck anyone over because burning man didnt sell out.

now it does sell out..and the hoarding can fuck people over.

for every not-self-reliant person who relies on a hoarder for a ticket its possible that one self reliant person is denied one.

in the past it might have been OK to coddle the people with troubles because it had no bearing on anyone else.

but now..... that coddling does have a bearing on others.



its easy for people to be against the lottery, to be against it and have opinions against it... if their opinions stay just as opinions thats fine.. but when they act out and game the system to their (or their friends) advantage.. whether their make monetary profit or not theyve possibly disadvantaged someone else..


maybe scarcity has shown us that its time for us to change our traditions.

[junglesmacks]

maybe scarcity has shown us that its time for us to change our traditions.

Perhaps..

[ygmir]

and yer still make the assumption it will sell out....................

[lemur]

BURNING MAN WILL SELL OUT IN 2012.


YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.

[Minxy]

if everyone hoards the tickets because its a 'tradition' to buy way more than they personally need theyll most likely be fucking people over.

in the past the tradition didnt fuck anyone over because burning man didnt sell out.

now it does sell out..and the hoarding can fuck people over.

for every not-self-reliant person who relies on a hoarder for a ticket its possible that one self reliant person is denied one.

in the past it might have been OK to coddle the people with troubles because it had no bearing on anyone else.

but now..... that coddling does have a bearing on others.



its easy for people to be against the lottery, to be against it and have opinions against it... if their opinions stay just as opinions thats fine.. but when they act out and game the system to their (or their friends) advantage.. whether their make monetary profit or not theyve possibly disadvantaged someone else..


maybe scarcity has shown us that its time for us to change our traditions.

I respect your opinion but I disagree with it. First of all, I don't think two (if we even managed to get them) tickets is "way" over what we need. Also since we generally give at least one gift ticket away I see absolutely no problem with it. Are you saying that buying gift tickets is now bad because they've switched to a lottery? A burner is going to get a ticket. Probably for free, perhaps for face value. It will be a friend who will have a great time at the burn and will be a good addition to our community.

The "coddling" has always had a bearing on others. People still did it. Every single ticket purchased is a ticket for one person and a lack of a chance for that ticket for someone else.

As long as a person isn't buying tons (tons being subjective, I don't consider tons to equal two) of extra tickets I have no problem with a person trying to assist another burner out with a ticket as long as they aren't making a profit.

For that matter if a burner doesn't have the cash or space on their card in January (right after Christmas) is it less self-reliant to set up a payment plan with your burner buddy who does and is going to apply for a ticket for you? I personally don't see a problem with it. I also think if you believe that people are NOT going to apply for extra tickets to make sure their camp-mates, friends and family will make it that you're naive. Sorry, no offense! I believe that is what the lottery is going to motivate (force) folks to do and is one of the reasons I dislike it.

Just my two cents.

[lemur]

I respect your opinion but I disagree with it. First of all, I don't think two (if we even managed to get them) tickets is "way" over what we need. Also since we generally give at least one gift ticket away I see absolutely no problem with it. Are you saying that buying gift tickets is now bad because they've switched to a lottery? A burner is going to get a ticket. Probably for free, perhaps for face value. It will be a friend who will have a great time at the burn and will be a good addition to our community.

The "coddling" has always had a bearing on others. People still did it. Every single ticket purchased is a ticket for one person and a lack of a chance for that ticket for someone else.

As long as a person isn't buying tons (tons being subjective, I don't consider tons to equal two) of extra tickets I have no problem with a person trying to assist another burner out with a ticket as long as they aren't making a profit.

For that matter if a burner doesn't have the cash or space on their card in January (right after Christmas) is it less self-reliant to set up a payment plan with your burner buddy who does and is going to apply for a ticket for you? I personally don't see a problem with it. I also think if you believe that people are NOT going to apply for extra tickets to make sure their camp-mates, friends and family will make it that you're naive. Sorry, no offense! I believe that is what the lottery is going to motivate (force) folks to do and is one of the reasons I dislike it.

Just my two cents.

6 is statistically a lot more than 4.. especially if everyone else is gonna do it ..even lowballing it with people buying 25% more than they need.. that surely causes a sell out much quicker.. forcing people to the secondary market much sooner..

whether one gifts it or not is irrelevant when considering the overall issue of scarcity in the community outside of that small circle of friends which benefit from a hoarder..

[Minxy]

6 is statistically a lot more than 4.. especially if everyone else is gonna do it ..even lowballing it with people buying 25% more than they need.. that surely causes a sell out much quicker.. forcing people to the secondary market much sooner..

whether one gifts it or not is irrelevant when considering the overall issue of scarcity in the community outside of that small circle of friends which benefit from a hoarder..

So are you against purchasing gift tickets then? I didn't see anything anywhere that said the BMorg was against folks buying gift tickets. Perhaps I missed it (I tend to read over things too quickly sometimes).

As I said I respect the dissenting opinions, I just don't agree with those posted (except one point that trilo made about coddling)!

[shykat]

if everyone hoards the tickets because its a 'tradition' to buy way more than they personally need theyll most likely be fucking people over.

in the past the tradition didnt fuck anyone over because burning man didnt sell out.

now it does sell out..and the hoarding can fuck people over.

for every not-self-reliant person who relies on a hoarder for a ticket its possible that one self reliant person is denied one.

in the past it might have been OK to coddle the people with troubles because it had no bearing on anyone else.

but now..... that coddling does have a bearing on others.



its easy for people to be against the lottery, to be against it and have opinions against it... if their opinions stay just as opinions thats fine.. but when they act out and game the system to their (or their friends) advantage.. whether their make monetary profit or not theyve possibly disadvantaged someone else..


maybe scarcity has shown us that its time for us to change our traditions.

I respect your opinion but I disagree with it. First of all, I don't think two (if we even managed to get them) tickets is "way" over what we need. Also since we generally give at least one gift ticket away I see absolutely no problem with it. Are you saying that buying gift tickets is now bad because they've switched to a lottery? A burner is going to get a ticket. Probably for free, perhaps for face value. It will be a friend who will have a great time at the burn and will be a good addition to our community.

The "coddling" has always had a bearing on others. People still did it. Every single ticket purchased is a ticket for one person and a lack of a chance for that ticket for someone else.

As long as a person isn't buying tons (tons being subjective, I don't consider tons to equal two) of extra tickets I have no problem with a person trying to assist another burner out with a ticket as long as they aren't making a profit.

For that matter if a burner doesn't have the cash or space on their card in January (right after Christmas) is it less self-reliant to set up a payment plan with your burner buddy who does and is going to apply for a ticket for you? I personally don't see a problem with it. I also think if you believe that people are NOT going to apply for extra tickets to make sure their camp-mates, friends and family will make it that you're naive. Sorry, no offense! I believe that is what the lottery is going to motivate (force) folks to do and is one of the reasons I dislike it.

Just my two cents.

Hide the ticket money under their pillow, POOF...... Now they can reg. for the lottery themselves........They will feel more selfreliant and you can still have givin your gift.No one doubts that there will be hoarding.....it's just worng...

[trilobyte]

If that's the number you've been purchasing in previous years, then no I don't think it will have a tangible impact. Where I see hoarding as becoming a problem is with individuals working out pacts with friends or relatives to try and double up, triple up, or even quadruple up their needs thinking that it increases their chances. It remains to be seen just how much of a problem that could be. There have been some colorful boasts and promises by some to do that, but who knows if that's just talk to get people in a twist and who knows if they can actually afford to tie up that kind of money for 5-6 months. Sure, if it's just on a revolving credit card you're only making payments, but that's an awkward imposition to put on either friends or family. Speaking for myself, even if I wanted to that's not something I could afford to do.

[trilobyte]

Excellent suggestion, shykat. Minxy, if you want to help your friend(s) become more self reliant, get them a pre-paid card in their name and sit 'em down so they can register themselves in January.

[Minxy]

Just my two cents.

Hide the ticket money under their pillow, POOF...... Now they can reg. for the lottery themselves........They will feel more selfreliant and you can still have givin your gift.No one doubts that there will be hoarding.....it's just worng...

Hard to hide ticket money under their pillow when at least two of the people that the "extra" tickets are for are my children who are 600+ miles away.

Also, since it had to go through a credit card (which they don't have) it wouldn't be very productive. I need it to go through my card.

Actually, now that I think about it, it's only one extra ticket as another one is actually spoken for...I'd forgotten. Doh! We bought a friend a gift ticket last year and she was unable to go at the last minute. We are going to attempt to do that again this year for her...slipped my mind! Ended up giving that one away to my (now) brother-in-law so he could attend our wedding...he hadn't been to the burn for several years.

I shouldn't write before coffee.

Ah, trilo, you're posting as I do!

I don't think it's wrong to purchase a ticket for my 15yo son under my name. IMO that's just silly to think there is something wrong with that. My 20yo daughter has the exact same cc number as I do (thus my other post in this forum) so again, I see no issue with us ordering two tickets each (two per spouse) to put in for our family members.

As for the friend tickets...it's a gift. Submitting under my name, my mom's name, my brother's name or THEIR name...what difference does it make? I don't think I should have to pay extra fees (ie buy a pre-paid card when there are perfectly workable credit cards available already) to buy tickets just to make some other folks feel better. I'm not breaking the rules, I'm not gaming a system, I'm not buying extra tickets (hoarding) for profit.

I'm digging this conversation and hope I'm not offending anyone personally with my posts. I love debates!

[5280MeV]

I personally think it's unnecessary and a lame method to make up for the ticket company not being able to handle the load they "should" be able to on ticket day.

I think that server load is just a red herring. I don't know exactly how the ticket company works, but renting extra nodes is pretty easy these days. Maybe they have technical problems, maybe not, either way, it does not affect an underlying problem that has nothing to do with servers.

If there are over 50,000 people ready on June 9th, 12:00:00 PST to purchase tickets (or whatever the max ticket count is), then there will be a lottery.

In the old lottery system, you will get a ticket based on how fast you can fill out a web form, and which requests get handled at which time by which server. Most of this will be entirely random, and it will not be first-come-first-serve based on who actually clicks their mouse first.

If less than 50k tickets are requested, then there is no lottery, everyone gets a ticket.

In the new lottery system, everyone signs up from June 9th - June 22nd. It does not matter how the network randomly treats everyone's request. Known scalpers can be scrubbed from the list, just in case they are a problem in 2012.

If less than 40k tickets are requested, then there is no lottery, everyone gets a ticket.

If you want to participate in the old style lottery anyway, you can mash the refresh button on your web browser on some specified time in March. In this second lottery, if less than 50k tickets have been requested for this and the previous lottery, or if less than 10k tickets are requested for this lottery, then everyone gets a ticket, and there is no lottery.


The point is that if more than ~60k people want to go to Burning Man and are ready by January to get their ticket, then there is going to be some sort of a lottery - some sort of chaotic or quasi-random process that will select who gets to go - and this process will have nothing to do with any sort of fairness. In fact, in order to prevent the economically advantaged from gaming or benefiting from being able to manipulate this process, it is preferable to make it truly random.

I was strongly disturbed by the lottery until I realized this. Now I see it as a minor adjustment.

[Dr Helix]

Four. One for me, one for my wife Lisa and two for my camp leader and his partner. That's it. Peace of mind is worth $30.00 extra/ticket to me.

[jkisha]

Excellent suggestion, shykat. Minxy, if you want to help your friend(s) become more self reliant, get them a pre-paid card in their name and sit 'em down so they can register themselves in January.

I'd be willing to bet that would cause more problems for the gifter, because I'd assume that the person getting the money would probably have some excuse for why they just had to spend it on something else and didn't use it to register to buy the ticket. We could probably fill the forum with all of the possible excuses.

You just know if they're not responsible enough to get their own ticket they definitely won't be responsible enough to deal with the cash!

[shykat]

Excellent suggestion, shykat. Minxy, if you want to help your friend(s) become more self reliant, get them a pre-paid card in their name and sit 'em down so they can register themselves in January.

I'd be willing to bet that would cause more problems for the gifter, because I'd assume that the person getting the money would probably have some excuse for why they just had to spend it on something else and didn't use it to register to buy the ticket. We could probably fill the forum with all of the possible excuses.

You just know if they're not responsible enough to get their own ticket they definitely won't be responsible enough to deal with the cash!

Yep ^^^
So its a win.....and you learn that those folks just dont want to go bad enough......

I don't think it's wrong to purchase a ticket for my 15yo son under my name. IMO that's just silly to think there is something wrong with that. My 20yo daughter has the exact same cc number as I do (thus my other post in this forum) so again, I see no issue with us ordering two tickets each (two per spouse) to put in for our family members.

Buying a ticket for a 15yr that is under age is one thing. Gifting to an adult,IMO,should be left to the XMAS tickets.

[Dr Helix]

You know, I wonder how silly all this is going to look in a few months when we all have tickets.

[floyd]

like last year, i'm registering for as many tickets i can get. our camp had a great plan last year, and we sold our excess tickets on ebay for enough money to pay for our entire trip - plus a couple days in reno + food. this is definitely the way to go for 2012, as tickets are going to sell out again.

let the yuppies pay more to go - they can afford it. artists need a way to fund their trip, and this is the way forward.

i'm a peaceable guy. but your kind...

WHO do you think you are? clearly, you have not understood a thing about burning man. and don't even get me started on that whole fucking artsy-fartsy bullshit. i don't care how great an artist you think you are - if you let other people pay for your trip: shame on you!

i'm a student from switzerland; i don't have much and yet i always bought (the right amount of) tickets from the most expensive tier because i think there are people out there doing worse. and even though shipping stuff from europe is very expensive i always try to contribute as much as possible because THIS is the way to go.

(it breaks my heart that i'm not yet able to contribute more as i so badly would like to. so for my first burn i just bought a shit load of fruit to share with people - does your wooden/metal whatever thingy out there have a higher value? imagine someday after my *engineering masters degree* (uuuuh) i fly out there, from europe, with a fucking huge 'piece of art' - is it better than yours because... well, i certainly spent more? or because i put more work in it? fuck that; it's the intention that counts!)

you're not any more of a burner or have any higher value because you think you're an artist 'making bm what it is'. (what is it anyway?)

all you elitist fucking idiots out there: FUCK YOU!

[Dr Helix]

like last year, i'm registering for as many tickets i can get. our camp had a great plan last year, and we sold our excess tickets on ebay for enough money to pay for our entire trip - plus a couple days in reno + food. this is definitely the way to go for 2012, as tickets are going to sell out again.

let the yuppies pay more to go - they can afford it. artists need a way to fund their trip, and this is the way forward.

i'm a peaceable guy. but your kind...

WHO do you think you are? clearly, you have not understood a thing about burning man. and don't even get me started on that whole fucking artsy-fartsy bullshit. i don't care how great an artist you think you are - if you let other people pay for your trip: shame on you!

i'm a student from switzerland; i don't have much and yet i always bought (the right amount of) tickets from the most expensive tier because i think there are people out there doing worse. and even though shipping stuff from europe is very expensive i always try to contribute as much as possible because THIS is the way to go.

(it breaks my heart that i'm not yet able to contribute more as i so badly would like to. so for my first burn i just bought a shit load of fruit to share with people - does your wooden/metal whatever thingy out there have a higher value? imagine someday after my *engineering masters degree* (uuuuh) i fly out there, from europe, with a fucking huge 'piece of art' - is it better than yours because... well, i certainly spent more? or because i put more work in it? fuck that; it's the intention that counts!)

you're not any more of a burner or have any higher value because you think you're an artist 'making bm what it is'. (what is it anyway?)

all you elitist fucking idiots out there: FUCK YOU!

NOW YOU'VE DONE IT!! YOU WENT AND RILED UP FLOYD!

[floyd]

i know that and i'm sorry for it.
usually i don't say anything because the internet is flooded with enough hatred and arguments already.

but this was just too much. seriously, i'm not putting up with idiots like her.

and we sold our excess tickets on ebay for enough money to pay for our entire trip - plus a couple days in reno + food.

YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.

[Dr Helix]

i know that and i'm sorry for it.
usually i don't say anything because the internet is flooded with enough hatred and arguments already.

but this was just too much. seriously, i'm not putting up with idiots like her.

and we sold our excess tickets on ebay for enough money to pay for our entire trip - plus a couple days in reno + food.

YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME.

My friend, I was just joshing. I completely agree that this kind of behavior is not tolerable. You get as angry as you wish. Hope to see you next fall.

[junglesmacks]

You know, I wonder how silly all this is going to look in a few months when we all have tickets.

[floyd]

You know, I wonder how silly all this is going to look in a few months when we all have tickets.

so true!
over the past weeks everybody just freaked out.
'rage and the end of time'.

[mushhuskies]

[quote="EspressoDude"]Bunch of greedy fucking bastards. Register for what you and your immediate family need, no more. If the event degenerates to hoarders and scalpers over-buying just in case, it probably is not worth attending. If like Minxy sez, buying tickets for folks that don't get their act together until too late, well it should really be too late for them. They really are not 'self-reliant'. And to those that buy a bunch and scalp them on ebay with enuff mark-up to cover their own event costs, you are people I do not want to camp anywhere near.[/quote]


Righteous! My feelings exactly.

I am in the running for two tickets for me and the wife unit.

I couldnt stand it anymore....I've been lurking for years...just had to weigh in!

MH