Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

[alt12]

The Plug n Play camps strike me as being camp-centric. They exist for the sake of the campers and not so much the community.

Head out to the suburbs. Most of the camps out there exist for the sake of the campers, not the community. That's not a slam on them at all, just a reality - I have tons of friends who camp in small groups of 5-10 people and provide zero (vis a vis the camp itself) for the community. They're camping together to make life more comfortable for themselves, and they interact with the larger community outside of their camps. What's wrong with that?

Nothing's wrong with that. I love those camps. But those small groups sitting up their hideaway spots on the outer perimeter etc. don't have a paid staff of minions cook, clean, wipe their assess, pick out their costumes, purchase their art-cars for them, etc. That is what the discussion is about. Its not about people camping and not providing community services. Registered theme camps, by definition, must provide that. No one else must. But just because you aren't a theme camp doesn't mean that the culture of self-reliance, etc. disappears.

[Bob]

Fake eplaya quote from Will Chase aside, I wouldn't expect anyone from either the theme camp or media departments to suddenly prairie-dog on this bbs.

[alt12]

One thing I find unsettling is that the 'birthday boy' in the video is on the new Borg board of trustees. Not because he threw himself a birthday party at Burning Man, or even that he had it catered (although I don't agree with it, it's just not the most unsettling thing). It's that he thinks that bringing his friends to a pre-built camp where everything was done for them will give them Burning Man. Not any different than inviting them to Paris or the Galapagos or the other places mentioned at the beginning of the video. His friends talk about his creativity and enlightenment, etc. and his generosity. I don't dismiss that he is creative; hell, I love his hotels. And I'd like a friend that would pay for me to go to XXX on the map for a birthday party!

But gifting them Burning Man would have been to all show up in the RVs and trucks at midnight on Sunday, and build the yurts, set up the shade, cook together, and experience the community. He gave them an exotic locale, but he didn't give them Burning Man.

And it's frightening that HE doesn't 'get it'. He is on the fucking board, and he doesn't GET Burning Man.

I agree 100%. It was *exactly* my feeling as well. In addition, its a "fuck you" to everyone else that actually works to build burning man. It basically says, hey I have enough money I can bring 1,000 of my friends and feed them, costume them, have little sherpa slaves take care of them and turn this event to my personal little playground for me and my buddies because I have oodles of disposable income. Its the exact opposite of my conception of the spirit of burning man. But hey he' s on the new board so maybe the future of burning man is pay-to-play. You have enough money you can just buy whatever experience you like just like in the default world.

[simoneski]

The birthday boy is on the board...well there goes the neighborhood.

[FIGJAM]

Let's address the herd of elephants in the room.

Who makes the most money off of Burning Man?

Our urstwhile host, thats who! (hollow be thy name)

Hard for the BORG to not include plug and play camps without bitting their own tails.

I'm not casting stones here, but how do we draw the line when it starts at the top?

Maybe everyone has a better take on this that I don't understand, but I can't make value judgments when I'm not on solid ground.

[Trishntek]

Like I said a few pages ago, "It breaks my heart."

[Eric]

Fake eplaya quote from Will Chase aside, I wouldn't expect anyone from either the theme camp or media departments to suddenly prairie-dog on this bbs.

It's not a fake quote, it's from the Burning Blog post Will made on the 19th.

There are also people from Media who've been posting on here for years (surely you know who "actiongirl" is, don't you Bob?), and the other departments have been monitoring ePlaya more in recent months as well, even if they don't post. We are no longer a step-child.

[lemur]

i think the point was he didnt say it HERE on eplaya.


perhaps saying it like this is better:

"We know that such camps (and those who use them) are a varied bunch and they’re here to stay. The challenge, then, is to help these camps integrate into the ways of Burning Man" -will chase.


though i dont see how, or why..

or maybe this:

"We know that such camps (and those who use them) are a varied bunch and they’re here to stay. The challenge, then, is to help these camps integrate into the ways of Burning Man" -will chase

[cooked 2242]

I just have a hard time resolving the coexistence of profiteering from pay to play and a primarily volunteer workforce.

In my experience – the BRC volunteer thing works like this: I do something good – You do something good. We create something better together for each other. Next time we want to do even more and even better.

If: I do something good. - You just use it up.
It’s half as good and next time I do less or I’m just done and move to the next thing.

The balance is what’s important. And when something like Pay to Play is inconspicuous or hidden, then the decline might be more erosion instead of collapse. Hard to tell exactly how fast - but it’s a one way street.

I hear all kinds of rationalizing of reasons why it is necessary from a practical standpoint. I just don’t get this either – BM is impractical intentionally. The principles are virtually all violated by Pay to Play. And if we are going to be practical - these people are not needed to sell out tickets.

My opinion - Pay to play is an invasive species, that if left alone will spread deeper and deeper into BRC until it is the same as the outside world. The problem with invasive species is that if they’re not completely killed – they come back.

Borg at another crossroads. Stick to the principles or allow the money weeds to grow.

[funkyjigsaw]

I totally agree with the below.

I just have a hard time resolving the coexistence of profiteering from pay to play and a primarily volunteer workforce.

In my experience – the BRC volunteer thing works like this: I do something good – You do something good. We create something better together for each other. Next time we want to do even more and even better.

If: I do something good. - You just use it up.
It’s half as good and next time I do less or I’m just done and move to the next thing.

The balance is what’s important. And when something like Pay to Play is inconspicuous or hidden, then the decline might be more erosion instead of collapse. Hard to tell exactly how fast - but it’s a one way street.

I hear all kinds of rationalizing of reasons why it is necessary from a practical standpoint. I just don’t get this either – BM is impractical intentionally. The principles are virtually all violated by Pay to Play. And if we are going to be practical - these people are not needed to sell out tickets.

My opinion - Pay to play is an invasive species, that if left alone will spread deeper and deeper into BRC until it is the same as the outside world. The problem with invasive species is that if they’re not completely killed – they come back.

Borg at another crossroads. Stick to the principles or allow the money weeds to grow.

[Galaxo Magic]

AH --- Top of the Morning to you ePlaya People --- Headmaster Janus here.

When I read about "intent" and "clients" and "VIP" and these things --- It's frustrating because that's not what PlayaSkool is. If you were to gather 200 of your close circle of friends and go to Burning Man, you would divide responsibilities, pool resources, maybe look to have a couple of cool projects, build, cook --- maybe you might register your camp, maybe not. Maybe you would have people in your camp skilled and capable and able to do special services like driving heavy equipment, maybe not. Maybe some of the 200 could only be there for 72 hours because they are an Emergency Room MD working in London who just came off a 3 day shift, will go back to a 3 day shift, but chooses to connect with their family, even if it's just or a few days --- maybe not. But you certainly wouldn't have 200 homogenous people --- you would have 200 people with varied intent and circumstance. That's what we have. We aren't profiting. We aren't trying to shred the fabric of Burning Man. It's quite the opposite. But that's just PlayaSkool --- imperfect, flawed but very committed to getting it right.

-

So you are saying that the 200 people of PlayaSkool are your close circle of friends? You have 200 people in your close circle of friends. Wow. And that you are not profiting from this. So all the money these folks give you never gets used for anything other than the camp infrastructure. You still pay for your own ticket and food and everything.
Basically, we all lose a lot of money for Burning Man every year. We do it for the love of it. If you are providing a camp for 200 folks then you probably should be losing a lot of money, certainly not breaking even or making money.

I totally understand shifts of people coming in at different times. As your gift to them you can provide the infrastructure. Check out gifting. It is awesome. I do not know all the facts but I have read through this blog twice now and the few folks that are defending this do not sound very Burny (whatever that is). I am old-skool, been going a long time. I hate change but it is coming. So be it. But I can voice my opinion here that I do not like it. No, I don't.

[Galaxo Magic]

The Plug n Play camps strike me as being camp-centric. They exist for the sake of the campers and not so much the community.

Head out to the suburbs. Most of the camps out there exist for the sake of the campers, not the community. That's not a slam on them at all, just a reality - I have tons of friends who camp in small groups of 5-10 people and provide zero (vis a vis the camp itself) for the community. They're camping together to make life more comfortable for themselves, and they interact with the larger community outside of their camps. What's wrong with that?

And they aren't applying for theme camp status and taking up theme camp placement.

[Galaxo Magic]

One thing I find unsettling is that the 'birthday boy' in the video is on the new Borg board of trustees. Not because he threw himself a birthday party at Burning Man, or even that he had it catered (although I don't agree with it, it's just not the most unsettling thing). It's that he thinks that bringing his friends to a pre-built camp where everything was done for them will give them Burning Man. Not any different than inviting them to Paris or the Galapagos or the other places mentioned at the beginning of the video. His friends talk about his creativity and enlightenment, etc. and his generosity. I don't dismiss that he is creative; hell, I love his hotels. And I'd like a friend that would pay for me to go to XXX on the map for a birthday party!

But gifting them Burning Man would have been to all show up in the RVs and trucks at midnight on Sunday, and build the yurts, set up the shade, cook together, and experience the community. He gave them an exotic locale, but he didn't give them Burning Man.

And it's frightening that HE doesn't 'get it'. He is on the fucking board, and he doesn't GET Burning Man.

Fucking well said pink!

[BeachBum]

Oh, well, it sadly looks like the Burning Man Org has jumped the shark in trying to get us to accept Pay & Play camps. Not to mention, their constant talking about "expanding the community", especially prior to, and right after the disastrous lottery. As opposed to trying to get the tickets to people who really care about the event from the start.

Here are a few quotes from some of the Pay & Play camps' advertisement sites:
- "Access to The Best Art Cars on The Playa", and they provide "Unique Camp Activities" (eventbright/Stiglitz)
- "The Dreamers Camp will be organised in synergy with the following camps:
Overkill, RobotHeart, PlayaSkool and Zoo." (same company, but perhaps a different sub-camp)
- In the "What Will We Be Doing" paragraph: "Wandering around Burning Man participating and making the most of the other camps’ activities." (same company, different page, bold added by me)
- And, everyone gets space in a RVs driven up from Vegas or SF, and perhaps early arrival.

It seems some of these Pay & Play camps is proud of the "talks" they give. Oh, brother.
As well as some of them being non-profit or not-for-profit. But non-profits are allowed to pay the owner/president and others a salary or other sums. It's not a "hobby" that loses money.

Why are these sites allowed to use Burning Man imagery? Why are they given prime placement when most of their camp members are paying for the experience, as well as paying for the luxury of being in an RV? Why can they assume that they'll get a significant number of early entry passes?

We contribute our interactive camps, art, and volunteer work to the event in the expectation that others are doing the same thing in whatever manner they can. When that expectation breaks down, why should we continue to contribute our efforts to the event?

We need to have identity based tickets, non transferable, to make this business model more difficult to do, and to get the tickets in the hands of people who really care about the event. We need to get the tickets to people who do their preparation to survive for a week on the nasty playa, not to tourists who think Burning Man is a cool festival to attend and pay others to make it happen. If you, BMOrg, expand Burning Man by making it easy for tourists to make it to the playa, there isn't going to be space on the playa for us who care.

[lemur]

We contribute our interactive camps, art, and volunteer work to the event in the expectation that others are doing the same thing in whatever manner they can. When that expectation breaks down, why should we continue to contribute our efforts to the event?

indeed good question!

when the event is turned into a commodity where camps are making cash profit, or accepting cash from clients to break even.. and it is deemed as acceptable to the folks who are supposed to be stewarding this community as a whole.. it certainly puts those who contribute without such monetary motivations in an interesting position....... a position of being the schmuck......... surrounded by people profiting off of their genuine efforts.

it is one thing for the LLC to profit off of the event that they organize... they set the stage for all participants and without their efforts there would be no burning man.

but to become the entertainment for profiteering entrepreneurs posing as participants on top of it? ..thats something else... the equality of the communal effort is gone

I can only see allowing and encouraging such vendor related camps as something that will encourage "IF I CANT BEAT EM.. I'LL JOIN EM!!" attitudes..

that is, of course, if anyone cares to show up at all..

once groups realize one of the things that largely brought many of them out to the event has been removed....the thing that binded many people, as far as i can see from the reaction to this... i.e. genuine effort to do shit because you like doing shit.. not for monetary gain.. you lose the thing that many people out there were largely.. from comments i read.. going out to find.

simply put, once ya taint the well, aint many gonna wanna drink from it.

it seems like openly encouraging this activity, whether its been pervasive in the past or not, (at least based upon what ive been seeing around the net on this issue) will taint the well.

we all have to deal with the giant 'plug n play' camp that is burning man itself, the LLC is for profit and we have to deal with that..

but dare i say, something in the social contract between us and the LLC ..was that they wouldnt allow someone to come in to the event and profit off of the participants.. to turn our efforts in to a commodity.

This is from the BURNING MAN TICKETS: TERMS AND CONDITIONS:.. it is from Section 5: Use of Images:

Cameras are welcomed at Burning Man, where they have long been an important part of Black Rock City’s storytelling history. Burning Man has worked to encourage the sharing of our community’s identity and cultural information through photography, videography, and film. Burning Man also seeks to protect that culture from unchecked commercialization or commodification, and to moderate an environment where participants’ rights to privacy, free expression, and creative immediacy are given additional consideration by our community. Your entrance to the event is your acceptance of the terms, conditions and guidelines in these Terms and Conditions

These guidelines and agreements are aimed at protecting Black Rock City’s inhabitants and its cultural values; they may seem unusual at first glance, but Burning Man’s goal is to preserve the principle of Decommodification within the Burning Man event

While this section seems to be limited to Use of Images.. it echoes another aspect of this Social Contract.. that the LLC espouses.. in the form of the 10 principles.

Decommodification
In order to preserve the spirit of gifting, our community seeks to create social environments that are unmediated by commercial sponsorships, transactions, or advertising. We stand ready to protect our culture from such exploitation. We resist the substitution of consumption for participatory experience.

It seems to me that the LLC is able to rationalize away this obvious commercialization and commodification of the burning man experience due to the participatory nature of some of these types of vendor camps... as i see it, they arent really living up to their end of the bargain by allowing them at all.

[Bob]

Fake eplaya quote from Will Chase aside, I wouldn't expect anyone from either the theme camp or media departments to suddenly prairie-dog on this bbs.

It's not a fake quote, it's from the Burning Blog post Will made on the 19th.

There are also people from Media who've been posting on here for years (surely you know who "actiongirl" is, don't you Bob?), and the other departments have been monitoring ePlaya more in recent months as well, even if they don't post. We are no longer a step-child.

It's presented as a fake *eplaya* quote, as if it were created using the built-in quoting/reply feature. Will Chase (under his alias "Playaquest") has posted here fewer than forty times, and not since 2010. Can't really blame Trilobyte for doing it for convenience' sake, and he generally does a great job here as a moderator, but as I said, if anyone from either the theme camp or media departments actually showed up on a consistent basis to take advantage of the eplaya as a discussion board I'd be greatly surprised.

Frankly, I don't really give a damn about this particular issue, only how it's being discussed in a relative vacuum. It rather pisses me off that the org would throw chum in the water here, with very little clarification of their purpose or the current status of these sort of camps with Harley's department, and with no *participation* <drink>.

Thank you for your interest. Your opinions are important to our insect overlords!

[BBadger]

The more I look at this PnP issue, the more I just don't really care about PnP camps if they have no outside effects other than their presence. In other words, as long as these camps aren't getting any special ticket allocations or privileges, they're pretty much background noise in my mind.

If you come to a place like BM and don't feel compelled to participate and bring more than just your eyes, it's not the rest of us that are suffering for it. I don't care if the organizers, or the camp occupants don't "get it"--that's their loss. The moment I arrived on the playa the first thought in my mind was "holy shit, finally a place where I can bring awesome stuff!" If that's not the vibe people are getting, they'll soon just "take it or leave it" with going to BM and the playa won't be for a loss.

Nor do I think the "culture" has been affected. A strong culture/religion does not need to flush out heretics like so many inferiority-complex religions of the past and current day. Do what you believe, be yourself, and others will follow without being forced. Of course many religious fanatics believe that apostates will taint the hearts and souls of current believers. If that is the case here, the failure is not the PnP camps, or burgins, or other scapegoats, but the current burners. Bring them, so that they may learn our ways.

I only have a problem if these camps are receiving special ticket allocations, and not specifically because they're PnP camps. Most camps are not extraordinary. They comprise people camping together to have a good time, most of whom don't have the interest, time, or resources to bring something else to the playa. I'd even wager that most of the people in camps that would be considered "highly participatory" are really not. There are always a few who bring and build; it's hard to get everyone involve. A PnP camp is pretty much the same, only somebody paid for some service. From the outside, nobody can even tell. They're just a camp with nice facilities, and their members look and act like most of the dressed up people who wander the playa. That leaves PnP camps eligible as any larger camp that follows LNT for camp tickets, and if that's the major criterion, so be it.

And what are you going to do anyway? I'm not particularly interested in some "participation police" going around doing inspections of camps to see what they do outside their own affairs. It doesn't seem like much "gifting" if someone is using the "gift" as a type of "credit" towards future tickets or whatnot. That sounds very Puritan to me, but I guess as a Puritan nation, that's how we think right?

[cooked 2242]

The more I look at this PnP issue, the more I just don't really care about PnP camps if they have no outside effects other than their presence. In other words, as long as these camps aren't getting any special ticket allocations or privileges, they're pretty much background noise in my mind.

I can understand all of that - very valid- but isn't it different when there is a limit on resources? - Only so many spaces on the playa available. And if there's scarcity, money has and in the future probably will create a better chance to get the tickets - then does it move beyond background noise?

Pay to play makes me feel like they're spoiling the stew. Or are my feelings just petty and I should just ignore it?

[Pop_Tart]

Or are my feelings just petty and I should just ignore it?

Never ignore your feelings. The analysis of the interaction of BM's community ethics and our individual morals on topics like these are our primary means of figuring out how we individually and collectively want to proceed.

[theCryptofishist]

I think we all realize that Burning Man could only benefit from truly enforcing the principle of no-commerce. A Burning Man free of all vending and vendors -- including ice and Center Camp coffee -- would encourage more sharing and cooperation; and as a bonus, discourage parasites and looky-loos.

Ice is mandated by the health department. Whether you agree with that or not, it's off the table.

[theCryptofishist]

The org wants to encourage a "discussion" so they can let us feel we've had a say in the way that will make more of the same go down our throats easier. The ten principles may go the way of the drive by shooting range.

i hate to agree with this type of thing as i usually think such comments are way off base in their demonization of the LLC and those who run the event..

but here.. it seems like they are already accepting of the spot these operations have in the community and are looking for a way to bring them on board...

Me too.

[theCryptofishist]

Just want some clarity. So this guy who's now on the board...he is the same guy who threw that party that ended up in Vanity Fair or Town and Country or someother magazine that I don't read, with guests in feathers and an ugly art car and no clean up for hours to days after it was over?
I should hit up the EA and see if that's his name on the plan of operations...

[zerzura]

Just want some clarity. So this guy who's now on the board...he is the same guy who threw that party that ended up in Vanity Fair or Town and Country or someother magazine that I don't read, with guests in feathers and an ugly art car and no clean up for hours to days after it was over?

No, a different person. And a different year, that party and video about it is from 2010. Also, a number of people that were at that camp/party do participate quite heavily in Burning Man and bring art, etc out to it.

[Clarkus]

I think one of the primary questions to be asked is what actually constitutes radical inclusion?

At Burning Man, to be included, you must be radically self reliant.

By that token, if "clients" attend the burn without having to plan, worry, cook, buy water (or beer), etc... then they aren't being included anyway...

That being said, larger theme camps DO set up an infrastructure, but very few provide EVERYTHING. Maybe some food, if everyone chips in, and hey, as long as one person is going ot get ice, might as well get some for everybody. That isn't plug and play.


But 60 RVs in a wagon circle off of 1 o'clock... it just felt wrong.


Then again, it's not as if you can police this sort of thing. Unless, of course, the ticket situation (sorry to bring that nonsense up, but it's relevant) is modified so that it is much more difficult to resell tickets...

Which brings me to my final point. If someone buys a bunch of tickets, and puts together a plug and play camp, and then sells the experience for a LOT of money (thousands) how different is it from scalping? Does it exclude self reliant burners from attending? Or more importantly, does it exclude participants from attending?

If an art group decided to make an art piece, and within their funding, they had enough for a pre-built camp, fine. Awesome. Good for them (though I would be surprised if an artist wouldn't put that cash towards their piece to make it even bigger, but that's neither here nor there). It's the tourists. And I hate to generalize in that sense, but...

I met a very nice gentleman last year. He was wearing khaki shorts, a hawaiian shirt, had a camera around his neck, etc. Stereotype. I expect to see those sort of stereotypes on the playa as a gentle poking fun, but never sincere.

But hey. Whatever. He seems nice, his mind is blown, glad he made it home.

Then he starts talking about his experience... Personal chef, just flew in, he's getting lots of good pictures. No, no, he didn't make anything, and he doesn't want to do all that work. He's just never seen such a wild place in his whole life!

Note: he was also plastered. He was also part of a "tour group" of about 15 other people on a guided tour.

Now. I don't begrudge him. I was nice, gave him some food, and was genuinely interested in his experience.

It just seems like he spent a lot of money to not "get it." He said he "couldn't wait to show these pictures to his friends back home. They'll be so jealous."

It never really made a difference until this year, when so many artists, performers, etc. are unable to attend to do overattendance.


Ok, I rambled way too long. My ultimate point: radical self reliance is, by definition, included in radical inclusion. If they can't get there and survive on their own, then they aren't being included anyway.


The end.

[some seeing eye]

Bob, I'll "drink" the "C"oolaide (actually not really). It's plausible deniability chum. Since there is no definition of PnP, some will get ticket allocations this year. Gives more policy options in 2013, which will also be ticket scarce. But as i always say, "there's no reason to assume conspiracy when an explanation of mere incompetence will do". I'm a radical. I'd do away with MV's entirely, except for physically disabled people. So I don't think having your servants build them off playa so you can parade them outside your camp walls should be a pass for placement or tickets. Bread and circus. Ticket allocation based on allowing any stinky hippie into your camp to interact with you is exactly what we need.

[chromatest]

Oh, well, it sadly looks like the Burning Man Org has jumped the shark in trying to get us to accept Pay & Play camps.

This image makes me giggle.

[chromatest]

Why are these sites allowed to use Burning Man imagery? Why are they given prime placement when most of their camp members are paying for the experience, as well as paying for the luxury of being in an RV? Why can they assume that they'll get a significant number of early entry passes?

They're not. From what I've heard, they have been told to remove the imagery, which they did....for a while and then put it all back. I'm guessing that not having the cute playa ladies was hurting their sales?

The Intellectual Property team is working on it.

[Savannah]

* The Burning Man name, logo, and Black Rock City-specific imagery are the property of the Black Rock City LLC. None of these items can be used in association with any commercial venture, advertising campaign, nor sold or transferred to a third party, without prior written consent from Black Rock City LLC.

* Black Rock City-specific imagery includes images of the Man and Burning Man commissioned artworks, aerial views of Black Rock City and any other imagery that can be identified specifically with the Burning Man event. If you have any questions, email press(at)burningman(dot)com.

Source: http://www.burningman.com/press/pressRandR.html

If you spot someone making money using the Burning Man name or symbol, etc, and you want to help, send an email as directed above.

[BBadger]

I can understand all of that - very valid- but isn't it different when there is a limit on resources? - Only so many spaces on the playa available. And if there's scarcity, money has and in the future probably will create a better chance to get the tickets - then does it move beyond background noise?

There's no scarcity of space on the playa. Never has been. Never will be. Are you talking about placed camps? How many of those really contribute more than a PnP camp? You fill out your form, and if you're large and established enough, you get your spot. Even for those camps that bring extra shit, so a PnP camp is now "acceptable" because they bring shit? These are such subjective measures that's it's almost laughable.

And ticket scarcity, scarcity is a function of demand. That demand comes from all sources: placed, unplaced camps, PnP camps, RVers, outskirters, bunches of burgins, "vets", Honorarium art project builders--anyone who wants a ticket. As for BM "tourists"--we'll always have them, and they transcend camp boundaries. BM tourists have little invested in their trip, and I'd expect they rarely return. Whenever I've been a tourist once I've gone somewhere I've never felt compelled to go back. I've seen what I've wanted to see, paid what I had to pay, and there is no investment. It's why people take many photos: they never plan on coming back, so they take away their little mementos so they never have to. We'll always have our one-time tourists, so if they want to enjoy the trip how they enjoy their trips, that's not my problem; them paying for the privilege of going there doesn't change their motivation, so why the concentration on PnP camps?

Pay to play makes me feel like they're spoiling the stew. Or are my feelings just petty and I should just ignore it?

Ask yourself: could you identify a PnPer on the playa? Could you point out a PnP camp from another without prior knowledge? I'd say just ignore it; don't let such things spoil your burn. One of the things I learned at BM that is often hard in the default world is to not care what anyone else is thinking about you, or you of them. You're there to be yourself, to do your own thing, to give because you want to give. Participation is something you choose to do, not a chore or obligation; it certainly shouldn't be something you trade. If people in PnP camps are paying for their experience, so what? Not your problem.

[theCryptofishist]

But 60 RVs in a wagon circle off of 1 o'clock... it just felt wrong.

Funny, I've felt that way about every 1 o'clock camp I've ever seen...