Camp fuck your camera!

[lemur]

upskirt photographs are illegal.

[lemur]

Ahh, you sound just like my shrink...

Since when photography not considered part of personal space and choice? So that news I watched on TV about some guy take pictures of women's body parts when the women weren't aware... that must be just people who can't deal art work...
Silly me! Actually, I don't even feel that strongly against photography. But this whole argument that anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid and has deeper problems is just blahh.

but but! i am not your shrink, I am me..

When did photography stop being considered a choice? Probably when emulsions got quick enough to make a photograph of someone without them needing to sit still for 2 minutes.

Photography has always had this battle, hell, the bible brings it to us in the 2nd commandment..

“You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God” Exodus 20:4-5

some people have a beef with people photographing them.. they have for over a hundred years!! that wont change..

but thankfully, photographers have made images without permission.. because sometimes thats the way it is..and as a result the images have brought people together... in all sorts of ways for all sorts of reasons..... together as a cause... to stop a war.. to start a war... images are powerful, they change cultures, create them, and are the rise and fall of regimes, you cant assign your whims upon photography!!

without permission...


we would lose this!


and maybe the most powerful reaction photo of 9/11


and images that shocked the world..





at home and abroad..


and BEFORE YOU SAY "thats different!!! burning man isnt a war zone or a disaster site!!! or newsworthy." let me tell you that it doesnt matter... because it isnt different, it is just an example to show that you cant just say ASK PERMISSION, and pretend like it could work, a lot of times it cant... and in fact, it doesnt matter.

as long as people are following the law permission is superfluous, really.. burning mans "ethos" public relations pushes aside, they still tell you on the back of the ticket that you should expect to be photographed..

burning man still happens in the USA where the courts agree that you are free to not only make photographs of people in public without permission, but also sell those photographs as art for profit without permission...

you can TRY to fight a battle that hasnt been won for over 100 years.. about whether or not someone should be allowed to photograph you....... but at burning man, your using a ticket (at least up till 2011) showed that youre alreading losing the battle. and being that burning man happens in the USA means that you've lost the battle..

i dont think anyone who is respectable would be fighting to have people that break the law by making upskirt photographs, or who photograph people who believe they are in private. or who make images that exploit people. i certainly am not fighting for them. they arent us, as in.. the photographers and camera users of burning man. please.. dont treat us like them.

there are plenty of people at burning man who only intend to make images, with no ill will. they are your friends and family.

to create what is basically a zero tolerance environment where a powerful artform that has changed the world is squashed and stepped on due to the transgressions of a small minority is wrong..


photography is bigger than your job! and you!!! its so powerful that it doesnt care if you get fired... it doesnt care if the image can bring down your career.. it doesnt care if it causes you to be tortured....really, ..photography wants to be free.. whether humans want it or not..

dont believe me?!!?!?

ask this guy:

[Kontradiction]

(I don't break 'Vegas Code': What's left/happens in Vegas "stays" in Vegas but comparitively, could there be the same "Code" for BM I wonder?).

I'd venture to say the 10 principles are BM "code" and it's pretty obvious those aren't always followed and at 50k+, how does an organization reign all that in anyway?


What really gets to me are those folks mentioned that try to be really "stealthy." I caught one YouTube video where the dude filming just focused on dancing groups of women (constant zoom in, zoom out) just to see their tits. There was nothing otherwise "remarkable" about the video.

Sure, if someone doesn't want to be filmed naked, then perhaps they shouldn't get naked. But -- folks with cameras shouldn't be total nutfucks and go that far.

Photography of the art, consenting adults, friends and big scenes where people are unidentifiable are super fine! It's that creepy old dude shit that is totally unfuckin' tasteful.

Amen..Preach!

[bm_cricket]

if you cant be seen being yourself by your family, coworkers or churchgoing friends than the problems that ensue arent really related to someone having photographed you.

That sounds great and fine but doesn't work. Imagine, if you will, a world where people have jobs. Where bosses are jerks. And where people who are different are punished. Here is a silly little example. You'll probably call me names for or tell me to grow up and take control of my life but, eh, who cares. The example: Put your self in the shoes of an educated, well intentioned, aspiring elementary school teacher. He/She wants to teach physics because he/she just loves what you can do with physics. He/She also likes letting loose and going to Burning Man. He/She has been teaching for 2 years after completing quite a few years of training to become a teacher. He/She comes into work one day and is informed that he/she will be on review for a series of photographs found circulating on the internet of the teacher doing X,Y,Z. (Lets say they are on a titty totter of terror. They are found in a naked bike race...) The teacher has a great teaching record. Has raised student scores in his/her subject and is well liked by his/her fellow teachers but his/her career is now essentially over. School teachers get fired for a lot less.

[mgb327]

Wow, there is some serious "sides" here. I, for one, am not that paranoid, nor do I live in a way that a published photo of me would get me in any perceived trouble. Control over 50,000+ people is like herding cats. Or, steering a sponge. There are those creeps out there, but on the flip-side of the argument, there are the "total-control-anti-pic" people as well. I wonder who is more harmful. I took over 800 photos this year, nary a boob or butt in any. I live back east, there are no burners near me here, so I sit sometimes and look at my photos to remind myself what a wonderful thing BM is. Several art pieces were of particular interest, at sunrise and sunset, but it took a while to get the shot, as I had to wait to accomplish that with no boobs or butts in the scene. I put 143 pics on my Facebook page, and people just loved them. I plan to take more next year. Great joy in sitting here in front of the computer with a friend giving a "guided tour" of BM in photos, and I have some videos I shot of the art cars and sound camps, again, not a boob or butt in them. But I try to be true to what BM is, and I give across the board respect to all participants. I spent 1 hour in a random conversation with a famous film star out in the playa one afternoon, and said star (and his famous girlfriend) were nude. I had my camera. I didn't even think of taking the photo, of what use would that be? In my personal life, I discovered that there are some things in our lives that I just cannot control, and by giving up the "fight against it", I win...what do I win? Peace of mind and a better life. Counting the days til I can go home again.

[Kontradiction]

This is one of those times when both sides are right. If you see my arse out on the playa, please, take a pic. I'm working hard to eat right, lose weight, get in shape, and I'd love others to see my hard work. Buns of Steel shall have a new meaning BM 2012.

And if I see you out on the playa with a naked arse, then hey, I'll ask before clicking a pic.

I'm also, a lady: I'll never tag that arse (On FB etc.) unless you ask me to.

[Nipple]

I'm also, a lady: I'll never tag that arse (On FB etc.) unless you ask me to.

The folks at B.E.D. would want to remind everyone to always ask before tagging asses, regardless of the context.

[wh..sh]

photography is bigger than your job! and you!!! its so powerful that it doesnt care if you get fired... it doesnt care if the image can bring down your career.. it doesnt care if it causes you to be tortured....really, ..photography wants to be free.. whether humans want it or not..

Lemur man! I love the point you made by changing you avatar. Very subtle Picture speaks a 1000 words.
The point is, I don't think any of us here are not against the art called "photography". Heck, I even own my set of SLR toys and I LOVE photography. I love the awesome pics of burning man... one with dark clouds, dust storm, mystic looking women... I am actually envious of ALL those mystic looking women. I wish someone could capture me like that! It's amazing!
It's an idealistic yet a true statement that ART is bigger than you and me... I was told so is WAR, SCIENCE, ECONOMY and everything else. But there is a dilemma... the other day, on the streets of SF, I saw a drunk man (I think drunk and sick) in a very helpless state. And there was this woman sitting next to him taking pictures of him. She was a professional photographer I bet and probably doing her job getting some message across to the world. But that scene was heart breaking to me. Somehow she looked so detached from what was happening, detached from the object of interest, detached from some level of human understanding. My shrink says it's interesting to analyze this act of detachment.
We both can go on and on about the good and bad impacts of photography. Some have changed the world, some have killed people (case in point, Princess Diana). So whatever it is, it's in the hands of the photographer to decide what kind of impact he/she can have. We both are on same side on this one.

Since Art, war, science, economy and everything else won't give a damn about an individual, we have to depend upon another individual to do that. I am not here to change the world or fight any battle for higher purpose. My shrink says I am too self-interested for that. I probably won't launch myself over someone taking my pictures. I might just walk away. But I like having a choice as an individual-who-is-not-under-gun-point.
Now under gun point, I think I might be a mighty fine cover girl.

My shrink says I should rest my case and focus on the deep underlying issues that causes me to be uncomfortable infront of the camera...

[Ugly Dougly]

Given that now there are cameras that look like ordinary sunglasses, the time is probably gone when we can expect to regulate photography. Those times are regretfully gone along with the firecrackers, mud orgies and feather boas.

[wh..sh]

And if I see you out on the playa with a naked arse, then hey, I'll ask before clicking a pic.

Arse is not necessarily the best of my body parts

[wh..sh]

Given that now there are cameras that look like ordinary sunglasses, the time is probably gone when we can expect to regulate photography. Those times are regretfully gone along with the firecrackers, mud orgies and feather boas.

Damn!!! Then I better work on my photogenic skills.

[Ugly Dougly]

I'd better get in shape or start sewing a burnoose.

[mgb327]

Burnoose! I dated a woman named Burnoose...or was it Bernice...I digress.

[Kontradiction]

I'm also, a lady: I'll never tag that arse (On FB etc.) unless you ask me to.

The folks at B.E.D. would want to remind everyone to always ask before tagging asses, regardless of the context.

+1 (ad infinitum)

[Kontradiction]

And if I see you out on the playa with a naked arse, then hey, I'll ask before clicking a pic.

Arse is not necessarily the best of my body parts

But you do a lovely BM Plank..nice.

[Super Evil Brian]

YER DOIN IT WRONG. also, fuck yer idea. this debate has been hashed out tons of times.. hasnt it?

anyways. .this idea is fucking stupid, let me suggest an alternative camp! CAMP WE ARE CLUELESS ENTITLED ASSHOLES CAMP.

I propose a camp. It will actually be a loosely associated group of people who absolutely hate what art and technology have done to Burning Man. As I see the mission so far our camp's theme will be as such:

1) Don't Make Art if it may hurt our sensibilities.
2) Openly harass anyone who makes art that offends our sensibilities while offering nothing of value
3) Bring art that makes us seem extremely foolish as it only exists to stifle creativity.
4) Shun photography and the internet for stopping us from "being ourselves".
4a) Shame, humiliate ourselves, publicly.
5) Emotionally torture anyone who values what Burning Man is about.
6) Make those who care and understand about how important photography has been in bringing this community together since day one sick with disgust.

that anyone would want to stifle photography out there is beyond me.

dont want people to see you doing stupid shit? dont do it!!
dont want people to see your bare ass?? dont bare your ass in any place but a private place

if your big worry is about people seeing you at burning man, YO, your problem isnt people making photos of you... get real with yerself.



tl;dr:

DONT WORK TO STIFLE MY EXPERIENCE BECAUSE YOU CANT GET REAL AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOURSELF IN PUBLIC.

You nailed it like Bob Vila!

Besides, not everyone has photos of only naked 20-somethings. Not everyone is some sort of creeper hiding with a huge lens. If I'm doing something interesting enough for someone to notice in NYC or Burning Man or anywhere, I'm generally flattered. Or at least interested.

Maybe they want people to burn as hard as they do, and only the way THEY see fit, which is, of course, the only way to do it.

[Super Evil Brian]

Could be a camp for camerophiles.

Camp.
Fuck Your Camera.

one word for you missy!!!

"Telephoto"

Twin lens reflex or maybe through the lens metering both have slightly different meanings now.

[Super Evil Brian]

Wow! I pissed a couple of you kids off, didn't I?!

I guess Lemur has a good point that it's a valuable art form to take pictures of boobs and spread them all over the internet. We shouldn't stifle their creative expression after all.

Okay, a real reply to Lemur: Yes. Anything that anybody does to actively stifle expression is bad... which includes photography... Maybe we just need to remind everyone with a camera of the consequences of publishing pictures and what it does to the rest of the event. There are a lot of people who go out there wanting to get free of what they don't like about the rest of the year.

And to Moonrise I have a real response which is that distinguishes personal photography from professional photography. Sharing your pictures of Burning Man with friends is really just fine but I don't want to see a bunch of youtube video of critical tits every year. Share your photography with friends. That's fine.

A response to everyone.. I may have been a little overboard with my outright hatred of photography. That wasn't what I wanted. I was really more interested in reinforcing the Burning Man rules against "commercial" photography and I would include youtube in that category. Photography and video are only okay if they are for personal use or sharing with your friends. Not 2,000,000,000 of your closest friends on the internet.

My website, Flickr, Tumblr, Instagram and wherever else I post photos wouldn't have 2 billion hits combined in a 100 year time. The average number of hits my pictures on Flickr have is maybe 40. Besides, not everyone has photos of tits and naked people. I have one photo on Flickr where you can see a naked guy, but it's a wide lens shot from the dock of a guy walking around the big rope in the "swimming area." It's a non-identifying shot from the side obscuring his money-making parts. All of my other photos don't have posed or naked people. I talk to the people when I can and make it obvious I'm shooting a photo.

I'm a little annoyed that you think everyone with a camera is a pervert. It's as if you didn't take the time to look at what people post online (linked from the thread on ePlaya). I imagine you also assume everyone on the playa is drunk and high all the time, which isn't true at all. Some people LIKE to have a photo shot of them. In some ways its a good conversation starter, especially if the photographer gives out some contact information. Also, not everyone does the same posed, cliche pictures.

Just because the NYPD and other criminal organizations can decide the completely lawful act of taking photos in a public place is illegal when convenient for them, it doesn't make it so.

However, there are people who abuse the rules, who sneak photos of tits and sexy, naked, 20-something asses. Those ass-wipes irritate me as much as the anti-everything crowd. Burning Man is a public event on private property. People should be able to do whatever they want without infringing not he rights of others. It seems to work out fairly well, but in any group there are always a few assholes. Don't assume everyone with a camera is looking for pictures of tits.

I have a camera or two with me everywhere I go. I had one or two with me the entire time in Black Rock City, including when I volunteered in Media Mecca. I like to think I portrayed BRC in a good light and illustrated different aspects of the city and the citizenry. Assuming I only have photos of tits is irritating, you might as well call me a wedding photographer, it's just as insulting.

I'm sort of surprised to find such intolerance, ignorance and narrow-mindedness here. I expect it with the GOP/Tea Party and religious groups, but not ePlaya.

[Super Evil Brian]

This is one of those times when both sides are right. If you see my arse out on the playa, please, take a pic. I'm working hard to eat right, lose weight, get in shape, and I'd love others to see my hard work. Buns of Steel shall have a new meaning BM 2012.

And if I see you out on the playa with a naked arse, then hey, I'll ask before clicking a pic.

I'm also, a lady: I'll never tag that arse (On FB etc.) unless you ask me to.

Noted

I'm extremely shy, but this year, after I set up my camp I decided to ride my bike around the playa stark-ass naked. It was terrifying at first then oddly liberating (and then chilly). If someone took my photo I would be sort of happy about it.

Flickr and Facebook both have rules about naughty bits in photos and with so much content being uploaded all over the place, it's unlikely an employer won't hire me because they saw my dick in a photo (or maybe they will hire me because of it?). Besides, I'm proud of my sexy sprinter, former bike messenger legs.

We can have naked photos of each other, but not in that creepy Craigslist sort of way

[Ugly Dougly]

I think that a lot of this feces-stirring has to do with a few people who want to run around in the desert naked and doing things that they would be embarrassed about in public - and hoping to remain anonymous.
I guess that was possible back in the day when Burning Man wasn't that famous, but these days that's forcing everyone to jump through hoops just to accomodate them. How do you share the sight of a crowd of burners getting together as a community without getting them to sign 60,000 releases?

OK I'll shut up now.

[Kontradiction]

This is one of those times when both sides are right. If you see my arse out on the playa, please, take a pic. I'm working hard to eat right, lose weight, get in shape, and I'd love others to see my hard work. Buns of Steel shall have a new meaning BM 2012.

And if I see you out on the playa with a naked arse, then hey, I'll ask before clicking a pic.

I'm also, a lady: I'll never tag that arse (On FB etc.) unless you ask me to.

Noted

I'm extremely shy, but this year, after I set up my camp I decided to ride my bike around the playa stark-ass naked. It was terrifying at first then oddly liberating (and then chilly). If someone took my photo I would be sort of happy about it.

Flickr and Facebook both have rules about naughty bits in photos and with so much content being uploaded all over the place, it's unlikely an employer won't hire me because they saw my dick in a photo (or maybe they will hire me because of it?). Besides, I'm proud of my sexy sprinter, former bike messenger legs.

We can have naked photos of each other, but not in that creepy Craigslist sort of way

Certainly. Say, was I reading you're a BDC-er or did I misread something? I've been invited to camp with them this Year. We'll definitely have to collaberate (sp.?) either way. Tattoogoddess and I are bringing air brushing equipment...for body painting...

[wh..sh]

I am all about being anonymous in the world.
Boy, now that we are sharing pictures of each others, who is up for taking my picture on playa? Provided you can make it look sexy...

[Super Evil Brian]

This is one of those times when both sides are right. If you see my arse out on the playa, please, take a pic. I'm working hard to eat right, lose weight, get in shape, and I'd love others to see my hard work. Buns of Steel shall have a new meaning BM 2012.

And if I see you out on the playa with a naked arse, then hey, I'll ask before clicking a pic.

I'm also, a lady: I'll never tag that arse (On FB etc.) unless you ask me to.

Noted

I'm extremely shy, but this year, after I set up my camp I decided to ride my bike around the playa stark-ass naked. It was terrifying at first then oddly liberating (and then chilly). If someone took my photo I would be sort of happy about it.

Flickr and Facebook both have rules about naughty bits in photos and with so much content being uploaded all over the place, it's unlikely an employer won't hire me because they saw my dick in a photo (or maybe they will hire me because of it?). Besides, I'm proud of my sexy sprinter, former bike messenger legs.

We can have naked photos of each other, but not in that creepy Craigslist sort of way

Certainly. Say, was I reading you're a BDC-er or did I misread something? I've been invited to camp with them this Year. We'll definitely have to collaberate (sp.?) either way. Tattoogoddess and I are bringing air brushing equipment...for body painting...

I was supposed to go to BDC meet and greet but I forgot all about it.

I wasn't in a theme camp or anything but I did work in Media Mecca.

[Kontradiction]

Got it.

[sandfly]

I formerly had a job that was at risk when I went to Burning Man. I went anyway. BMC should make it clear that if you go to Black Rock City, almost certainly people will take your picture unless you spend the week hiding from the light. Some of those pictures will be among the thousands publicly posted. Accept the risk, or, sadly, just don't go until your life gets to the point where you have more control of your life and can let the world know who you are. Or, wear a costume so you cannot be recognized in the pictures.

The current photo policy is so vague and inconsistent that it creates the illusion that there is some protection against being photographed at BRC, but there really is not. I think the best BMC can do about this is to have an enforceable policy that someone publicly posting Burning Man photos must take down any at the request of someone in the picture. Of course, by the time the request is made, it may have been seen by whoever is going to cause the problem.

Life involves choices, and risk. Don't participate in a public event, like Burning Man, if you can't handle the risk that your participation will become public.

[theCryptofishist]

I'm looking for Camp Take Pictures with my Vibrator? Do you know where they are?

[Savannah]

I'm looking for Camp Take Pictures with my Vibrator? Do you know where they are?

Within Lamplighter Village, but you'll need the passphrase, and even then, they'll be coy about it, so you'll want to persist until they know you're sincere.

[Foxfur]

Your camera fucking camp would hate me.
I don't mind if someone takes my picture.
It's a compliment.
It's an even bigger compliment when they don't ask.
I don't care if they post my pic on the internet.
You should see the pics I post of myself on the internet.

And I would never press charges against anyone for snapping a pic up my skirt.

[lemur]

BMC should make it clear that if you go to Black Rock City, almost certainly people will take your picture unless you spend the week hiding from the light........it creates the illusion that there is some protection against being photographed at BRC, but there really is not.

read the back of your ticket.. after the part where it says you risk death.. it says:

"Your image may be captured on film, video or photographs without your consent and without compensation"

done, and done.

the big sign on the way in might say 'ASK PERMISSION' but the ticket says, fuck off hippie, i dont need yer permission.. you already gave that up just by being here.

(maybe 2012 will be dif)

[sandfly]

... read the back of your ticket.. after the part where it says you risk death.. it says:
"Your image may be captured on film, video or photographs without your consent and without compensation"
(maybe 2012 will be dif)

Including micro-print on the back of the ticket isn't my idea of "make it clear".

I was one of about 20 people taking pictures in a crowd of people watching a public performance. Obviously the performers knew that people were taking pictures and probably appreciated the implied compliment that they were doing something beautiful that we wanted to remember. Apparently selected by some karma debt, I got to be the one who endured a 5 minute rant by an experienced burner about the fact that it was wrong for me to take the pictures because I had not asked permission -- like the performers and event sponsor would have wanted the people with cameras to keep interrupting with requests for permission. (When one of the performers did not want pictures taken, this was announced, and I saw nobody taking pictures during that part of the performance.) If that happens again, I think I'll try showing the ranter the wording on the back my ticket, but I doubt it will help.

(I'm sure 2012 will be dif -- I'm just worried about how)