a handy tip for younger drinkers!

[Ludo]

Greetings!

Ludo of The Dusty Swan Public Craic House and Celtic Cinema here, with a handy tip for all you beautiful, so-young-looking-you-can't -possibly-be-21 burners out there.

In the past few years, the BLM and other law enforcement agencies have cracked down hard on pubs and bars for under-age drinking, to the extent of sending in young agents for sting operations. Getting caught servng alcohol to anyone under 21 is an immediate $1,100 fine! Ouch! So, if you're 25, but everyone thinks you look 18, you will need ID, or no one (at least no one with a brain) is going to fill your cup. Of course, you don't want to bring your license with you for a night on the playa! What if you lose it? You're screwed! And where will you keep it when you are wearing little or nothing at all?

You will, of course, have your own cup/mug/water bottle with you because, as every good burner knows, this is a Bring-Your-Own-Cup event. So here's what you do. Make a photo copy of your driver's license or other legal ID. Then use clear packing tape to attach the ID to your cup, making sure the tape extends around all edges of the ID so liquid doesn't get in and make it all grody. You now have legal proof of age, and your license is safely back at your tent!

We hope to see you and your ID-enhanced mug at The Dusty Swan (www.TheDustySwan.com) at 4:45 and Hyacinth! We will happily fill said mug with beer or irish Coffee!

Slainte!

Ludo

[jkisha]

That's a great idea.

(though I'm not so sure if it would hold up in court)

[illy dilly]

That is a wonderful idea!

I would also suggest possibly blacking out some of the vital info, encase you loose your cup. Like maybe your exact address, and part of the license number.

Jkisha, why would it need to hold up in court?
People only go to court for serving to minors. So, if the person really is over 21 there would be no reason to go to court?

EDIT: O wait... duh, you mean if a person faked an ID then taped it to their cup. And the bar 'did' get a ticket, a judge wouldn't consider a paper ID taped to a cup a 'valid form of ID'.
Sorry, took me an extra second.

[BBadger]

I'm sure it's more about due diligence than certifying ages beyond all doubt. Even with a full blown driver's license, each state has a different one, and it's not like bars have those new barcode scanners, UV lights, etc. to determine whether your awesomely laminated fake ID is real or not anyway.

[TomServo]

Awesome idea! Not only responsible, but I'm sure will win you points with the bartender. I know it would for me.

Ultimately, it's the discretion of the LEO, that determines whether or not it will even go to court. The fact that it's a copy, NOT the real ID, I think won't really matter. The last thing an officer would want to do, is to travel around matching up IDs.

[illy dilly]

Yeah, I'm totally doing this!!!

My cup is a little small and sort of weird shaped to put the ID right on the cup. But, I'm thinking a laminated copy on a 2in lanyard(or something similar) that is permanently attached to the handle of the Mug.

[Ducky]

bump... Tips & Tricks? ...Mods?

[BurningDaylight]

In any case, please bring some form of ID, even if you're not that young. Our bartenders won't serve you if look young and don't have one. It can be hard enough to tell someone's age, and at burning man, with hats, shades, costumes, makeup, it can be impossible. I carded someone who turned out to be 50.

We got a ticket a couple years ago and it was $1600. What they did to us and a several other bars was to send in an under-age plant, then come in a bit later and say you served a minor here's your ticket. I don't think they come in and check IDs, though I'm not sure. It sucks but that's what they have continued to do. Luckily, the word is getting out - last year I saw more people with IDs than ever.

[jkisha]

Yeah, I'm totally doing this!!!

My cup is a little small and sort of weird shaped to put the ID right on the cup. But, I'm thinking a laminated copy on a 2in lanyard(or something similar) that is permanently attached to the handle of the Mug.

If you're doing the lanyard thing, you could also write the name and address of your camp on the other side-- just in case.

[trilobyte]

Giving this a nudge to the food & drink board.

[Bob]

...your license is safely back at your tent!

And what could possibly go wrong?

[catinthefunnyhat]

1. So a photocopy of your ID reallly is sufficient under Nevada law? Here in Ontario, it's original or bust, baybee. Using a photocopy would be nice, as my ID is my passport, and that's a rather... precious thing, especially as I'll be out of my home country. Heh... I probably need to get a firearms license. That would be a good ID.

2. Is it only people under 25 or so who can expect to be carded? My experience here is that during big events, everyone gets carded, and I mean everyone. There are sometimes even sob stories of grannies who couldn't drink because they didn't have their pensioner's card with them to prove they were over 21. (OK, maybe those stories come from the UK, and maybe they were in the Daily Mail ("It's absolutely true because I read it in the Daily Mail!"). Still, I'd hate to be caught ID-less because I thought being 40 granted me some sort of immunity...

[shykat]

2. Is it only people under 25 or so who can expect to be carded?

At TTITD when serving booze at the bar, if you "look" under 30 we ask for id, if we think you look close 30 or it's too close to call, we ask for id. We have a lead that runs the bar each night, if a bartender is on the fence about someone's age and they have no id,the bartender then asks the lead ,who ALWAYS rejects the non Id holding person.

If look 40 and come into our bar you most likely wont be carded. I have found this to true in most bars i have been in. I am 42 and have not once been carded.

[SnowBlind]

I'm sure it's more about due diligence than certifying ages beyond all doubt. Even with a full blown driver's license, each state has a different one, and it's not like bars have those new barcode scanners, UV lights, etc. to determine whether your awesomely laminated fake ID is real or not anyway.

A Bartender once showed me this book he had, which had images of drivers licenses from all 50 states, so he can verify out of state licenses. As someone who grew up in Germany, this seemed utterly hilarious to me.

[gyre]

1. So a photocopy of your ID reallly is sufficient under Nevada law? Here in Ontario, it's original or bust, baybee. Using a photocopy would be nice, as my ID is my passport, and that's a rather... precious thing, especially as I'll be out of my home country. Heh... I probably need to get a firearms license. That would be a good ID.

Carry permit is a valid ID in the states, good for burning man will call, voting, or especially when they card you for allergy medication.

Cops know if you have a carry permit, they don't have to worry about you.
Too fucking hard to get one and keep it.
I'd get one for that reason alone.
You don't have to own a gun to get one here.

[International Incident]

2. Is it only people under 25 or so who can expect to be carded? My experience here is that during big events, everyone gets carded, and I mean everyone. There are sometimes even sob stories of grannies who couldn't drink because they didn't have their pensioner's card with them to prove they were over 21. (OK, maybe those stories come from the UK, and maybe they were in the Daily Mail ("It's absolutely true because I read it in the Daily Mail!"). Still, I'd hate to be caught ID-less because I thought being 40 granted me some sort of immunity...

Stupid ID laws,
At musicfest NW (Portland) last year they would not give me a wristband to buy a beer as I only had my Australian drivers license and they wanted my Passport - FFS. I am 40. I had words and the supervisor let me get a damn wrist band.

Oh, and at one Walmart they wouldn't let me buy beer because my ID wasn't american. The poor kid wouldn't even accept my passport as ID. And I really wanted that beer....grump, grump, rant, rant, rant!

[SnowBlind]

1. So a photocopy of your ID reallly is sufficient under Nevada law? Here in Ontario, it's original or bust, baybee. Using a photocopy would be nice, as my ID is my passport, and that's a rather... precious thing, especially as I'll be out of my home country. Heh... I probably need to get a firearms license. That would be a good ID.

Carry permit is a valid ID in the states, good for burning man will call, voting, or especially when they card you for allergy medication.

Cops know if you have a carry permit, they don't have to worry about you.
Too fucking hard to get one and keep it.
I'd get one for that reason alone.
You don't have to own a gun to get one here.

That's funny, when people get carry permits for totally different reasons. Like people that work in the Texas state legislature who get carry permits, not because they want to concealed carry a gun, but only because that let's them bypass the lines at the metal detector.
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/state/headlines/20100719-concealed-carry-gun-permits-let-holders-bypass-texas-capitol_s-metal-detectors.ece

[portaplaya]

Here is the actual law regarding demanding ID. This is worded for places of business, but in Nevada no one (even parents) can serve alcohol to a minor.

30.240 Serving minor: Demand of proof of age as defense. In
any proceeding for the suspension or revocation of any license
based upon a violation of section 30.235, proof that the
defendant licensee or his agent or employee demanded and was
shown, immediately prior to furnishing any intoxicating liquor to
a person under the age of 21 years, bona fide, unaltered,
documentary evidence of majority and identity of the person,
issued by a federal, state, county or municipal government or
subdivision or agency thereof, including but not limited to a
motor vehicle operator's license, a registration certificate
issued under the Federal Selective Service Act, or an
identification card issued to a member of the armed services is a
defense to the proceeding for the suspension or revocation of the
license.

This means:

• You are totally in the clear if the person is actually over 21 years of age.
• If they are not, you could be in trouble if you serve someone and did not ask for ID.
• Accepting anything as ID aside from actual, unaltered ID (at least as far as you can tell) is insufficient as a defense.
• If the minor uses fake ID you might not be off the hook; it's up to the prosecutors and judge as to whether you would have been able to tell the difference. (Most likely, they won't press charges.)

Thus accepting a photocopy puts the bartender at risk of serving a minor without being able to claim that he demanded legitimate ID. A bartender may or may not be willing to take that risk.

[seantildawn]

Punch a small hole in your ID and wear it around your neck.

[maladroit]

Punch a small hole in your ID and wear it around your neck.

In my state (California) they punch a hole in your expired license to indicate that it is no longer valid.

[JovReef]

I had planned on using my expired license just incase I lost it.

[TomServo]

According to the Washoe county sheriff dept. officer I just spoke with, you should be carrying your state issued ID as an acceptable document.

[gyre]

I used my burning man ticket receipt to get my state issued ID replaced one year.

Only needed it for the burning man will call window.

[seantildawn]

[quote="maladroit"][quote="seantildawn"]Punch a small hole in your ID and wear it around your neck.[/quote]

In my state (California) they punch a hole in your expired license to indicate that it is no longer valid.[/quote]

I believe they punch through the year of the expiration date so there is none, rendering it invalid. I am just talking a 1-2mm hole in a corner. Enough to run some nylon twine through.

[tattoogoddess]

Awesome idea! Not only responsible, but I'm sure will win you points with the bartender. I know it would for me.

Ultimately, it's the discretion of the LEO, that determines whether or not it will even go to court. The fact that it's a copy, NOT the real ID, I think won't really matter. The last thing an officer would want to do, is to travel around matching up IDs.

Just to let you know. If the person(sting) gives you a fake id and the bartender did there job by looking at the date and photo you HAVE to ask the person are they under 21. They can not lie to you. It is entrapment. I always ask people before i get their id if they are underage. We had a city sting and did this as well as asked for the person's id. They said they are underage. I passed the inspection. So ALWAYS ALWAYS ask if they are of age before seeing an ID. it will cover your ass! If it is not a cop and they say they are over the drinking age and it is a fake ID. You are not responsible as the bartender if busted. It falls on the person with the fake ID.

( 10 years of bartending)

[portaplaya]

So ALWAYS ALWAYS ask if they are of age before seeing an ID. it will cover your ass!

This was in Nevada?

[Eric]

So ALWAYS ALWAYS ask if they are of age before seeing an ID. it will cover your ass!

This was in Nevada?

I don't know if her's was, but it holds true in Nevada. I always asked "the three questions" before serving:

1) Are you 21?

2) Do you have your ID?
(I would occasionally get jokers saying "no", I told them to get out of the bar & not come back until the had it, even if they were in their 60's)

3) Are you legal to drink in the State of Nevada?

If they lie to question #1, and you did check their ID and it looks legal, by Nevada law they get fined, not you (unless the law has changed since last year). Also, some people are of age but not legal to drink (some felons, etc). You need to ask the 3rd question.

If the bar got busy I would just stand on it, get everyone's attention (I'm loud) & shout the questions. I would then randomly card people, targeting costumes & young looking. Anyone without an ID didn't get served and I told the other bartenders not to serve them.

[tattoogoddess]

Felons cant drink in NV? Good to know. I will be doing some bartending out on the playa. Thanks for letting me know. Any others who are not to be drinking?

The rules Apply to most states I think. But I have worked in Virginia, Iowa, Wi and Or.

But yes if the bartender asks you if you are UA and you say no and you are. It is entrapment. You are just doing your job and they are trying to trick you. Wont hold up in court. I also think that they can not use a fake id in a sting. I would have to break out my Iowa Beverage book there is a big section about this.


so ok reading laws currently for NV. How do you handel this one?
"Minors are not permitted to hang out in areas of a business where liquor is sold, served, or given away, unless the under age person is an employee and regulations related to such employment are adhered to. This includes hotels, casinos, and restaurants.

[Eric]

Felons cant drink in NV? Good to know.

Some felons. All you have to ask is "Are you legal to drink in the State of Nevada", all the burden is on them. You can't be expected to go through someones history to sling some booze at them, you are expected to ask.

[Eric]

so ok reading laws currently for NV. How do you handel this one?
"Minors are not permitted to hang out in areas of a business where liquor is sold, served, or given away, unless the under age person is an employee and regulations related to such employment are adhered to. This includes hotels, casinos, and restaurants.

If they're underage they have to leave the bar. Period.

With your camp they can be in other areas but not the area the wine is being served, doesn't matter if they're drinking or not.