when friend turns scalper

[The CO]

geney, here is are a few small tidbits for you. The argument/questions you are throwing out have been answered many times. In fact, I'll quote myself from a different thread to debunk your questions:

It is a business. You can't run an event this large by the seat of your pants.

(the following comments are not aimed for specific people...Yet)

OregonRed & I run an event every year in June. It's a camping trip with theme camps & no commerce. We charge just enough to cover our costs. We had about 100 people this year. Due to costs, we raised ticket prices by $5, from $30 to $35.

Cost Breakdown:
Property Rental: $1350
Toilet Rental: $560
Administrative: $299.48
Infrastructure: $464.66

The Money:
Income(ticket sales): $2709
Expenses: $2674.14
Net income: $34.86

Our profit was not even the price of one ticket. And I had plenty of people that wanted to bitch about prices and how the event should be free & we were money-grubbers.

In case anyone out there can't do math, I will scale that up for you. These are not numbers from the Borg, just a little exercise in costs.
100 people vs 50000
Income: $2709 becomes $1,354,500
Expenses: $2674.14 becomes $1,337,070
Profit: $34.86 becomes $17,430

So based on my little event, we could potentially make enough profit to pay one person a poverty level salary.

The Burn is much bigger. Costs go up as size does. Read these:
http://afterburn.burningman.com/10/org/ ... cture.html
http://afterburn.burningman.com/10/financial_chart.html

As I seem to say every year;

SHUT THE FUCK UP AND DON'T BUY A TICKET (oh, wait, you can't if you haven't already).
GO CREATE YOUR OWN EVENT.
FUCK OFF HIPPIE.

[Playa Hater]

i guess i don't and never will...this is what i do get.

- some in the 'community' can be very judgmental and has no issues making opinions with only one side of the story.

Actually what you're seeing is we have no issues with calling people on their bullshit.

- Black Rock City LLC is a for profit organization yet only ones anyone want to flame are those that don't follow the burner philosophy of barter only. Going low with $300 x 50,000 is $15 mil.

BLM, Portapotties, EMS, LEOs, etc cost money and they don't take barter. BMORG must make money to pay them or else you have no event to go to. Look at the afterburn reports to see where the money goes.
Oh yeah, BTW, the Org just converted to NON-PROFIT this last Friday. Pay attention.

- Burning Man thrives on volunteers yet doesn't offer many/most of the volunteers tickets; every dollar counts for profiteering.

Expecting to get paid in tickets misses the whole point of being a volunteer.

- i would like to think only those in her
e are people without tickets so many are upset.


with the profiteering. however there are many with no lives and just troll these forums ripping on those who don't have tickets.

No, we rip on those that come in whining. You'll notice that those that are on the ball and working to get tickets get a much more supportive response.

- NONE OF US ARE BETTER PEOPLE THAN SCALPERS JUST BECAUSE WE DON'T SCALP BURNING MAN TICKETS!!!

YES WE ARE. Scalpers profit from no labor of their own. Such leaches are not welcome in this community. (Drink!)
-Badger

Uhhhh nailed it.

[graidawg]

YES WE ARE. Scalpers profit from no labor of their own. Such leaches are not welcome in this community. (Drink!)
-Badger

Thats the post i wanted to read.

[delinquent]

Basically she needs to money to fuck her husband.

Good girl.

...but I think if she does sell them for $1000, it ends the friendship.

You should probably end the friendship regardless. If you consider a friend selling one of their own possessions such a major issue that perhaps not knowing them is a better alternative, you simply do not deserve to have friends in the first place. Seriously, you'd be doing your friend a favour.

[pink]

Selling her tickets to be able to fuck her husband is one thing. That's a decision of priorities. Selling her tickets at profit to fuck her husband is another. that's exploitation. But selling your tickets at profit to fuck her husband and then taking the freebies offered in good faith....

IMHO that is the shittiest of the shitty. I'm sure there are much more deserving burners that could use those tickets. The OP probably knows a few. I hope the burners that were going to gift her the tickets find another ride.

[Cheyenne]

I can't believe she actually needs to fuck her husband regularly to convince her to stay faithful... what a dickhead and if I were her husband - i'd get a divorce pretty quickly... Good job she isn't coming to the real playa - less people like her the better...

[starlightbright]

I can't believe she actually needs to fuck her husband regularly to convince her to stay faithful... what a dickhead and if I were her husband - i'd get a divorce pretty quickly... Good job she isn't coming to the real playa - less people like her the better...

100% agree. so if she doesn't get the money, she'll have no choice but to fuck other some other guy(s). what a catch!

she sounds like a narcissistic sparkle pony. every camp has a secret narcissist or two or three or more. learn to spot them for your own safety, as they're prone to stabbing people in the back. their playa gifts are usually drama based performances - prone to breaking up relationships on the playa.

[Cheyenne]

she sounds like a narcissistic sparkle pony. every camp has a secret narcissist or two or three or more. learn to spot them for your own safety, as they're prone to stabbing people in the back. their playa gifts are usually drama based performances - prone to breaking up relationships on the playa.

Thanks for your advice - I think we actually chose really well with our camp this year - they are a pretty solid bunch from LA who are super hard workers and very talented people ... I'm quite glad we don't have any dickheads like that at camp Transmorphagon!

Hell, we are even being given a place to stay for the couple of days before the burn when we fly accross the pond...

Thank god for forward planning

[Igneouss]

Money has a corrupting influence on people. For some a spetre of turning $600 into $1000 is enough to change their mind about attending BM. Others would rather smoke cigaretts than attend BM. Is this a bad thing? Not really. Maybe some folks try to claim a 'higher' or more 'moral' position while others work hard and struggle to make money.

The Org has done a good job limiting scalping. It really could have been a lot worse if big scalpers had been able to buy blocks of tickets. Kudos to the Org.

BUT

While BM has a non-monetary economy inside the event, it is by no means any kind of non-profit operation. Don't be deluded. The Org stands to make millions on profit for the 3rd or 4th year in a row. And the Org is and 'LLC'. It is a chartered and licensed for profit enterprise. Period.

Now the Org does say lots of things about it's intentions concerning money. You can read it on the web site. But it's what the Org DOES NOT say that is meaningful.

Here's a list for folks to ponder:
1) Annual saleries of individuals (the 6 plus long time career folks). The 6 could pay themselves anything they want and are under no obligation to disclose. Furthermore, they can change the rules at will. "we only make 50,000/yr" could be the statement the year after giving each other million dollar bonuses.
2) Profit and loss from year to year. Back when they lost money or broke even they had no trouble talking about this. Now days they are silent.
3) Decision NOT to charter as a 503(c) corporation. Non profit status saves lots of money on taxes. There are only 2 reasons why they would not do this. a) they fear disclosure and/or b) they fear having a borad of directors.
4) The Org streadfastly refuses to discuss ticket sales numbers. As time goes by the original arguments for this become meaningless.

The current coporate structure allows the 6 to say and do pretty much anything they want with millions of dollars. Imporantly, they can change the rules at will. No disclosure required.

Their tendency toward secrecy is very suspicious looking. For example, they argue that non profit status would not work for them. Ok, but nothing is stopping them from publishing audited financial reports.

I leaned long ago that you cannot trust anyone with large sums of money and zero oversite. They will find an infinite number of creative ways to suck up anything that they think they can get away with.

It's all a bit troubling. Burning Man was built on the backs of countless volunteers. Those people are due the accountability that is lacking here.

[Zhust]

I asked "but do you still plan to sell your tickets for $1000?" She said yes and this is better cause she can still see her husband and go to the playa. She said she found someone willing to pay the $1000. I asked "a newbie?" She said "oh such a newbie!" and something about the girl not knowing much about Burning Man. I replied "great way to take advantage of newbies. I'm sorry but I think that is horrible to sell for that price. It has nothing to do with ethics. It is un-Burner like." Then I walked out.

I'll just say that I prefer to sleep soundly at night knowing I haven't fucked someone over. The Playa (curiously similar to chemical inebriating substances) tends to amplify spiritual, emotional, and physical states. I hope all parties involved do okay.

[Playa Hater]

Basically she needs to money to fuck her husband.

Good girl.

...but I think if she does sell them for $1000, it ends the friendship.

You should probably end the friendship regardless. If you consider a friend selling one of their own possessions such a major issue that perhaps not knowing them is a better alternative, you simply do not deserve to have friends in the first place. Seriously, you'd be doing your friend a favour.

Yea maybe if that was he case. But it isn't. If you read the entire post it has to do with selling for profit, taking other free tickets offered on good faith and then also not being able to pay for all the things needed to survive out there. If you have no money to see your husband, you have no money to live in the desert. And I ain't the type to take care of ill prepared people. Friends like that? No thanks.

[gaminwench]

Igneouss...
I believe that the org completed it's non-profit status applications a couple of weeks ago; does this change your views?

[Playa Hater]

While BM has a non-monetary economy inside the event, it is by no means any kind of non-profit operation. Don't be deluded. The Org stands to make millions on profit for the 3rd or 4th year in a row. And the Org is and 'LLC'. It is a chartered and licensed for profit enterprise. Period.

Let's play catch up.

http://www.burningmanproject.org/burnin ... ions-plaza "

http://blog.burningman.com/eventshappen ... f-the-man/

http://www.sfbg.com/2011/04/05/man-move

There is also The Black Rock Arts Foundation (BRAF) which is a sister non profit... Sooooo yea. "It is by (all) means (some) kind of non profit". Also there was a profit being made and it was well before 3 or 4 years ago. I believe Larry Harvey was quoted in an issue of Piss Clear (August 30th 2000, Issue 10, Version 6.1 to be exact) saying he got his first year round salary in something like 1998. It really bothers me when people say things not having any clue what they are talking about. But I guess that's just the way it goes.

[silkkat813]

I've been sharing a living room with this girl the last 2 nights. I've been restraining saying anything more to her out of respect for the friend's home we are staying out. He feels caught in the middle. Friday night, Scalper Girl told our friend and his gf that I am mad about her selling her ticket and his gf said she agreed with me. But her husband is his best friend so he doesn't want to tell her how he doesn't like this either.

It looks like she is taking the free ticket deal and scalping the tickets. I told our mutual friend that she is not welcomed to come near our camp. Her husband went to the playa for the first time last year and didn't really care for it. He doesn't care whether they go back or not. SO THIS REALLY PISSES ME OFF when so many other Burners could get that deal and buy her tickets for face value. She is being selfish. I am glad she is not staying with our friend starting today cause if I got home from work and had to face her (after now I know she went through with the deal) I don't think I could be so cordial.

[Savannah]

I think what would bother me most about a friend revealing they were a Burning Man scalper is . . .

* this would probably be a surprise new wrinkle in their character, & I might wonder in what other ways they were fond of taking advantage (because--given time--they will work their way around to you. Maybe financial opportunism is their only weak spot, mayhap it ain't). Whether or not the friendship ended, this is not someone with whom I would ever trust enough to share an apartment, lend $100 'til payday, or do other things where our money might blend.

* clearly they have misread me and think I'm okay with this sort of thing, so I should probably make some things clear . . . just in case they'd prefer to spend time with someone who's less of a buzzkill.

[OregonRed]

I agree with Savannah. I think making this sort of discovery about someone's character after calling them a friend for a few years would be extremely disheartening. I would definitely wonder what other character peccadilloes they had been hiding.

In Conclave there are rules against this type of thing. You can't receive a discount or gift ticket if you already have a ticket. Every year I have dancers complain about it ("I've worked as hard as everybody else, I am entitled to a discount ticket too"), and I get to explain that if they already have a ticket, they don't need another one. There are other benefits to being a part of the Conclave, and that those other benefits are what they need to be focusing on. We are not entitled to anything.

I think that's my biggest issue with this acquaintance of silkkat's... The fact that she seems to feel entitled to commit this act that most of us find heinous in the extreme. Keep breathing silkkat, and we're here to vent to, should you need us.


Edited because my brain gets ahead of my fingers occasionally.

[Eric]

I think that's my biggest issue with this acquaintance of silkkat's... The fact that she seems to feel entitled to commit this act that most of us find heinous in the extreme. Keep breathing silkkat, and we're her to vent to, should you need us.

*cough*
Hey sillat... um... do you happen to know the name of the camp she's getting the free ticket from? Because *cough* it would be awful if someone, oh, I dunno, casually told them that the person giving them a ride for their ticket scalped hers for lots of cash & is taking advantage of them...

Karma can be a bitch. That camp can get in a person who really deserves to go, she can be left in the cold with her cash.

Not that I'm *cough* suggesting anything...

Do they still have pay-phones in Vegas?....

[silkkat813]

this is not someone with whom I would ever trust enough to share an apartment, lend $100 'til payday, or do other things where our money might blend.

I actually took my ticket out of the place we were sharing cause I started to get worried that if she saw it, she might sell mine too and claim I must have lost it. Now I just hope no one breaks in my car and finds it.

Eric, I don't think it is a camp she is getting the free tickets from. I am not sure if they are artists, volunteers, or how they got 2 extra tickets. Maybe they bought them and think a free ride is equal price? They said they were also wanting a place to camp in exchange for the ticket (camp + ride). I don't know how my friend knows them or found this deal, but I think he wants to help his best friend (by making the Scalping Wife happy) so he told her about this deal when he heard about it. He posted it in a private FB group. I commented on it that I think the deal should go to more deserving Burners. I am trying to let Scalper know how pissed I am at her but trying to not piss off our mutual friend.

I have considered making a "scalper" sign instead of a "kick me" sign and posting it on her back on the playa. Or tattoo it to her while she is passed out.

[Ace of Kittens]

I think that unfortunately this ticket situation is really bringing out the worst in (some) people. I, too, have been disappointed by the behavior of people I considered to be friends. It's really jarring.

[capjbadger]

While BM has a non-monetary economy inside the event, it is by no means any kind of non-profit operation. Don't be deluded. The Org stands to make millions on profit for the 3rd or 4th year in a row. And the Org is and 'LLC'. It is a chartered and licensed for profit enterprise. Period.

snip

3) Decision NOT to charter as a 503(c) corporation. Non profit status saves lots of money on taxes. There are only 2 reasons why they would not do this. a) they fear disclosure and/or b) they fear having a borad of directors.

Umm... they just converted to a non-profit this last friday. Pay attention Ig.

-Badger

[Igneouss]

Hope your correct.

[silkkat813]

Also I thought I'd add we met via a group. A group that has a camp that does a Meat and Greet every year that she and I both attend. Now if she shows up, do I out her in front of the group? I usually get very drunk at this Meat and Greet so might "accidently" say something. Then again, she might not attend this year because she knows that is the one event I am guaranteed to be at.

If anyone wants the address to come and make faces at her with me, PM me. It is Tuesday night.

[Savannah]

Also I thought I'd add we met via a group. A group that has a camp that does a Meat and Greet every year that she and I both attend. Now if she shows up, do I out her in front of the group? I usually get very drunk at this Meat and Greet so might "accidently" say something. Then again, she might not attend this year because she knows that is the one event I am guaranteed to be at.

If anyone wants the address to come and make faces at her with me, PM me. It is Tuesday night.

Don't out her in front of the group. That would be a difficult segue anyway. Out her on a need-to-know basis. i.e., if someone's likely to get hurt because of her nature. For example, is someone likely to gift her a ticket, not realizing what she's likely to do with it? Or is she about to be made group treasurer? You may feel that the knowledge has a use.

Otherwise, consider keeping it classy. Write "scalper" on the back of her neck when she's drunk, instead.

That's a joke. Mostly.

[Savannah]

p.s. If it's the Stag Camp Meet & Greet, PM me.

[silkkat813]

Otherwise, consider keeping it classy. Write "scalper" on the back of her neck when she's drunk, instead.

I have bad eyesight and couldn't (or not bothering) to read what you wrote afterwards.

[Savannah]

[portaplaya]

I respectfullyt disagree with those who are angry when tickets are sold at above face value. A ticket is a commodity, just like anything else. The value of it fluctuates based on supply and demand. If you really think about it, BMORG did the same thing with the tiered ticket program. Why didn't they offer tickets at one set price? Because they know as less and less tickets are available, they are more and more valuable and can be sold for a higher price. This is what's happening now in the open market. The VALUE of the ticket is much higher because there are very few tickets available and many poeple who still want one. Now having said all that, I too, would not sell a ticket for above face value. But that's my choice, just like the OP made the choice to sell her ticket for more. And found someone who was willing to pay. That's Capitalism folks.

Actually, events like this offer a tiered ticket program because they need initial capital early to cover pre-event costs and are willing to offer tickets at a lower price to encourage people to buy early. Once that process gets acculturated, people expect it, so it takes a really good justification to change that. BM went to change the reasoning, but keep the process; asking people to buy the highest level ticket they could afford to subsidize the burners buying tickets below cost. (A few people do this, but not very many.)

As for the rest of your comment; yes, that is the way the outside world works. Commodification and so on. Pretty much all of the ten principles are minority views on how society should work ethically. We congregate at the event and agree to abide by these principles because we share most or all of those minority views, but can't get society to agree with us. Saying that society is "right" to act the way it acts is spitting on the ten principles. One would hope that you only recognized that society acts this way, but don't condone it; but the message in your post suggests that this is not the case.

[portaplaya]

Now the Org does say lots of things about it's intentions concerning money. You can read it on the web site. But it's what the Org DOES NOT say that is meaningful.

Here's a list for folks to ponder:
1) Annual saleries of individuals (the 6 plus long time career folks). The 6 could pay themselves anything they want and are under no obligation to disclose. Furthermore, they can change the rules at will. "we only make 50,000/yr" could be the statement the year after giving each other million dollar bonuses.
2) Profit and loss from year to year. Back when they lost money or broke even they had no trouble talking about this. Now days they are silent.
3) Decision NOT to charter as a 503(c) corporation. Non profit status saves lots of money on taxes. There are only 2 reasons why they would not do this. a) they fear disclosure and/or b) they fear having a borad of directors.
4) The Org streadfastly refuses to discuss ticket sales numbers. As time goes by the original arguments for this become meaningless.

The current coporate structure allows the 6 to say and do pretty much anything they want with millions of dollars. Imporantly, they can change the rules at will. No disclosure required.
Their tendency toward secrecy is very suspicious looking. For example, they argue that non profit status would not work for them. Ok, but nothing is stopping them from publishing audited financial reports.
I leaned long ago that you cannot trust anyone with large sums of money and zero oversite. They will find an infinite number of creative ways to suck up anything that they think they can get away with.
It's all a bit troubling. Burning Man was built on the backs of countless volunteers. Those people are due the accountability that is lacking here.

A lot of these things you ponder have been addressed, I feel.

First, the total salaries paid each year is listed in the Afterburn report (latest: http://afterburn.burningman.com/10/financial_chart.html). Salaries for everyone on the payroll at anytime totaled $7,283,000 in 2010.

Second, the Afterburn report makes clear what the total expenditures were. Income from ticket sales isn't hard to calculate either since they list the maximum population.

Third, they have said it was specifically theboard of directors requirement that forced them to form as an LLC. Unlike a corporation or non-profit, an LLC allows the owners to form a company with exactly the rules they need. They can choose to functionally be a non-profit or can act like a corporation and try and maximize. Since the "uninvolved board of directors" cannot participate in running the event the people that started Burning Man had to either turn control over to outsiders or they had to become uninvolved and become directors themselves, thereby bringing in newbies to become the producers. That idea was unmanageable at the time of incorporation.

Four, okay so I don't understand this one either, since I have never heard any explanation from BRC LLC.

As for being secretive. They open their books to the public in a way that no other LLC does. In fact, non-profits don't have to open their books with an Afterburn report. Explicitly publishing your expense report and writing a report on operations is hardly "zero oversight." It's not full disclosure, with all of the additional criticism that would surely entail, but it's not complete secrecy as you make out.

Further, the LLC is officially undergoing the process to become a non-profit, as announced last year. What's your bitching about? They heard your complaint and realized they could fix this major organizational/financial factor and you are acting as if they still have not heard you. This allows the founders to move onto a board of directors now that there is ready replacement staff to become the new producers of the event, something that was not possible a decade ago. (It's also important as the LLC boards enters the age where retirement should be considered.)

[Dr Helix]

I respectfullyt disagree with those who are angry when tickets are sold at above face value. A ticket is a commodity, just like anything else. The value of it fluctuates based on supply and demand. If you really think about it, BMORG did the same thing with the tiered ticket program. Why didn't they offer tickets at one set price? Because they know as less and less tickets are available, they are more and more valuable and can be sold for a higher price. This is what's happening now in the open market. The VALUE of the ticket is much higher because there are very few tickets available and many poeple who still want one. Now having said all that, I too, would not sell a ticket for above face value. But that's my choice, just like the OP made the choice to sell her ticket for more. And found someone who was willing to pay. That's Capitalism folks.

Actually, events like this offer a tiered ticket program because they need initial capital early to cover pre-event costs and are willing to offer tickets at a lower price to encourage people to buy early. Once that process gets acculturated, people expect it, so it takes a really good justification to change that. BM went to change the reasoning, but keep the process; asking people to buy the highest level ticket they could afford to subsidize the burners buying tickets below cost. (A few people do this, but not very many.)

As for the rest of your comment; yes, that is the way the outside world works. Commodification and so on. Pretty much all of the ten principles are minority views on how society should work ethically. We congregate at the event and agree to abide by these principles because we share most or all of those minority views, but can't get society to agree with us. Saying that society is "right" to act the way it acts is spitting on the ten principles. One would hope that you only recognized that society acts this way, but don't condone it; but the message in your post suggests that this is not the case.

I respect what you say but my response to all of this is the same. It's a camping trip. In the desert. With lots of great art, good music and fun. I will bring a piece of art to share. I'm no artist but it was fun making it. That's about it for me. And at the end, we all go home. The rest to me anyway, is just talk.

[silkkat813]

good news... mutual friend gave me the phone number of the people in Vegas offering their tickets. We are trying to find them a ride, a camp, and gonna suggest they sell their tickets for face value. And let them know why not to sell them to Scalper.

Oh and selling the tickets was her husband's idea (the guy who didn't even like the playa) and the buyers offered the $1000. Her husband thinks it is a good business deal.