One idea for BMorg to mitigate scalping

[Sic Pup]

FWIW - all tiers are available on day one so you can still adhere to buying at the higher level without risking getting caught sans ticket during a sell out.

[capjbadger]

FWIW - all tiers are available on day one so you can still adhere to buying at the higher level without risking getting caught sans ticket during a sell out.

DING DING DING DING!

-Badger

[Starman97]

"Except that BRC LLC is officially undergoing the change toward becoming a non-profit. They need to get their money-in/money-out balanced first before they can complete that. What you suggest would make that impossible."

Umm raising the price would help the balance sheet. Instead of the scalpers making all the money on selling tickets at thier true value, the .ORG would get that additional money. Maybe even expand the low income program. But for sure, put more money into art.

"That would be exclusive to people with meager financial means. The tiered ticketing system and low income application is the best way to ensure a range of people are welcome rather than an economically stable elite. May want to change up the final tier, break it up into two tiers with $400 tickets for the final set, but raising the overall price is not a friendly suggestion."

If an additional $100 breaks it four someone, then the extra $500 the scalpers want is a sure dealbreaker. But really, the price of a ticket is a small part of the total cost of making the trip out to BRC. If it's that big of a deal, stick around your local area, there's a regional somewhere nearby and those tickets are much cheaper. There is no entitlement to go to the playa, you set your priorities and you work out what it takes to go.

As things stand right not, the tickets are too cheap, this brings the scalpers in to set prices according to the the market value. The the .ORG wants to stop that then they have to make the tickets non-transferable. That's a lot of work and risk of identity theft and creates a huge, valuable/vulnerable database. Probably mean an increase in ticket price.

Another method is for the participants to buy extras and then sell them at face value or even at a discount, I've done this in the past for Flipside tickets which always sell out, within hours. It creates an intentional community, but risks stagnation as non-connected people have a hard time getting tickets. But then connection is good, if they are motivated to go, they will make the connection and a ticket will find it's way to them.

[capjbadger]

This all fine and dandy except for one major thing...
Scaplers are NOT the issue. They are NOT the big bad wolf everyone is making them out to be. They are a MINOR issue.
Where is that great post by CO... Ah, here it is...

Lets do a little math.

50000 tickets at at average of $300 each =$15,000,000

In order to insure that they control the majority (2/3rds) of tickets, this mythical scalping conglomerate need ten million dollars. TEN MILLION DOLLARS.

Next, you can only by four (4) tickets per credit card. That means they need 8334 credit cards to purchase them, entering each number individually.

Then, they have to buy them all on the first day. Let's call it January 15th.

Now, they have to sit on a TEN MILLION DOLLAR ($10,000,000) investment for the next 8 months. If they try to sell before August, people will not buy them.

Scalpers do not work at long term investments. They want to get a ticket & turn it around @ a profit in the shortest amount of time possible. As in hours. Not days. Not weeks. Not months. Not three-quarters of a year.

Some one that can drop that kind of cash and sit on it for 8 months.... is not a scalper. It's the guy in the $200,000 custom motor coach.

-Badger

[$tormy]

Thanks SIc! I learn something new every day! Seems I'm my own worst enemy here for not understanding the purchasing system.

I still think the gas gauge idea has merit.

$tormy

[nocturnal_steve]

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Next year all tickets sales , pricing structure etc. will be run by a volunteer group....
authorized by the BORG and spearheaded by William Shatner.

beam me up

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[portaplaya]

Possibly a good idea. But also a useful tool for scalpers to see if it becomes worth it to jump in and buy all of the last tickets.

[theCryptofishist]

We could use a thermometer. This would fool the scalpers into thinking it was a fund-raiser and they would be none the wiser.

[capjbadger]

We could use a thermometer.

Ear, oral, or rectal?

-Badger

[portaplaya]

Candy thermometer, obviously.

Badger sure is obsessed with the human body.

[capjbadger]

Candy thermometer, obviously.

Badger sure is obsessed with the human body.

All depends on the human in question.

-Badger

[GypsyLionEyes]

Hot damn! I found a ticket for a fair price. Anyway, I've been noticing that the tickets on eBay are actually going for less and less the closer it gets to playa time. Hopefully this help you all out who are still ticket hunting.

Keep your heads up! There are decent burners out there who just can't make it and are willing to help you get there instead!

[mdmf007]

Glad you found a ticket - mind sharing the price? I have seen tickets coming down in price. But have to agree that scalping is a side effect of a free market. Supply and demand rules.

[nocturnal_steve]

scalping is a side effect of a free market.

Yes true, harsh reality. But the impetuous for BM did not sprout from the free market. For those those that don't know a little history..

Of course started as a free spontaneous gathering.... Flash forward (the exact timeline escapes me) thousands of attendee's , permit required by the BLM, Washoe County etc etc. My first year, 1997 it was about 7000 peeps, ticket prices at about $65.00. The Washoe County Sheriff, fearing the BORG won't be able to pay their bills for police, fire, port-o-potties etc. actually SEIZES THE GATE and starts commandeering gate ticket sale funds. I recall Larry Harvey going around with a hat ...(paraphrasing )"please help, anything helps, keep this alive". The BORG and such makes up any deficit with donations, fundraisers.

Larry et al could have easily licensed vending .....Ok you can sell Coca Cola and we get a cut, let Solarcaine shoot Suntan Lotion commercials, push officially licensed T-shirts, pendants made in China and the such. But the words of Larry ....(paraphrasing ) "I would rather let this all go away, the end of BM than let it turn into another commercial event" i.e Coachella, Lightning in a Bottle, or similar event. God, even Woodstock ....the Mother of all pseudo counter culture events .... started as a commercial endeavor !

Flash Forward today, economically successful venture, sell out, funding for grants & art projects via the Black Rock Arts Foundation, being the fiscal sponsor for Burners Without Borders etc.

My point in all this... the BORG and early attendees were never in it for the money, many many volunteer hours or low paying staff jobs were (wo)manned by skilled, competent educated people , lawyers, builders, business people, accountants all toiled to make the event what it is today ..... and scalping just plain taints the whole thing. And if Larry, the core staff members, the powers that be are drawing any kind of decent salary now 20+ years later I say GOD BLESS THEM you deserve it !

IMHO anyone who scalps a ticket "because their finances have taken a turn for the worse, only to pay for their camp expenses, Pusher RV", what ever....
go ahead scalp your ticket but PLEASE STAY HOME .... I don't want you in BRC ! And on a side note ... if you want to attend PLEASE DO NOT PAY SCALPER PRICES ... you are feeding into the taint, the darkness. Let it go, be humble, there are regional events, and always next year. One of the biggest perversions I have seen are tickets for sale on E-bay ALONG WITH EARLY ARRIVAL PASSES, which are doled out to large theme camps who were granted & need the extra time and manpower to set up their gig. This is in agreement and under the auspices of the BLM, which the BORG has fought dam hard, waged a delicate balance between diplomacy and assertiveness be to get a permit from. Anyone who is in possession of tickets and early arrival passes & offering same for sale should know better, and if you come forward I will personally without further ado PUNCH YOU IN THE NOSE.

The roots of BM, and a key to it's continued spectacle and growth.... the reason why large tribes, camps, groups of MIT students, nerds, techies, hipsters, gearheads, artist etc. build and create such costly, weird, fantastic stuff and play host in some outta sight venues, give away food, booze etc..... is not for profit. It is for the love of it all.. The scalper mentality is so much the antithesis of what it is all about... if this kind of mentality creeps in and is OK in the BM community and/or the day the BORG truly sells out I might as well renounce being agnostic, join the Church, start believing in Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Ted Haggard, stay home and watch evangelist T.V.

(Disclaimer ... some of the exact facts of the history may be a bit wrong, but the general story is accurate... If any one wants to fact check and provide corrections PM me).

[theCryptofishist]

Larry et al could have easily licensed vending (Ok you can sell Coca Cola and we get a cut, let Solarcaine shoot Suntan Lotion commercials, push "officially licensed T-shirts, pendants made in China and the such".

I dispute this. BLM doesn't tend to allow vending, unlike say National Parks, where there can be bidding on contracts. (But Curry Village is a far cry from what you're talking about.) It's been a while since I googled (was it "vending blm"?) but I think I found one place, in San Diego, or Imperial, or Riverside County. Even then, you had to take your mobile food preparation off site once every five days and clean it.
I pretty much think that the llc made virtue out of necessity on the no vending policy.

[nocturnal_steve]

>I dispute this. BLM doesn't tend to allow vending, unlike say National Parks, where there can be bidding on contracts.....

Maybe so, but in '97 the event was held on private land.... the Hualapai Flat (not far from BRC). The BORG could have kept it on private land or could have/can do many many things if money was the underlying impetus & motive; BM The Movie etc. BM the Energy Drink etc. etc.

[portaplaya]

Larry et al could have easily licensed vending (Ok you can sell Coca Cola and we get a cut, let Solarcaine shoot Suntan Lotion commercials, push "officially licensed T-shirts, pendants made in China and the such".

I dispute this. BLM doesn't tend to allow vending, unlike say National Parks, where there can be bidding on contracts. (But Curry Village is a far cry from what you're talking about.) It's been a while since I googled (was it "vending blm"?) but I think I found one place, in San Diego, or Imperial, or Riverside County. Even then, you had to take your mobile food preparation off site once every five days and clean it.
I pretty much think that the llc made virtue out of necessity on the no vending policy.

Would this policy be relevant given that Burning Man, once it has the BLM permit, is a private event? And BM does have vending, with ice and coffee sales. In addition to the non-cash vending of giving out food from camps that have been inspected by Nevada State food safety.

[theCryptofishist]

I've done as much research as I care to. Call BLM Winnemucca and ask.

[Neverloved]

Take an e pill, wear underwear and hook up with people who can't afford a ticket, too. Hire me to blow a fan on you and dump dust on you. I will be your dj and we can burn stuff. We can rent a porta potty! You can by my ice and coffee! Trying to make bm abide by rules of non scalping is stupid, call it flaming, but man, is this really going on in earth?
Wah!

[Neverloved]

What if ticket prices go up to four hundred NSF year? Will you complain?

[munkycmunkydoo]

First off I must qualify my post by stating that the closest I have ever made it to BM is 4th of Juplaya. I had a blast, and quite frankly the unmitigated free for all and greatly dispersed camp experience may be more fitting for me (fun safe people with lots of guns and ammo are rather fun to be around). That being said it fully solidified my already piqued interests in attending BM. As I am attending university the Burn can be a bit of a struggle to attend purely on schedule. Classes start the Monday of early admission, and most professors don't share the view that the first few classes are OK to miss.

So this year I figured I would work within my budget to purchase the basic items needed (buy them once and take care of them), and if my schedule allowed I would then pick up a ticket. Admittedly I was a bit surprised the event sold out as early it did, but am completely OK with the idea that if it is/was meant to happen this year it would. To that end I have wondered what will come of next year.

With a full blown sell out now in effect, scalpers do have the reigns for the rest of this year, and not much can be done to avoid this after other options (here, friends, family) have been exhausted. So the big question is, how are sales handled next year? With a sell out this year, as some have already noted, professional scalpers or Ticketing Agencies (if you will) have a special interest in getting into the game early next year, and buying first tier tickets and holding on to them to maximize margin. Those scalpers are then in direct competition for the same tickets the most prepared, and committed paying Burner is also after. Unlike this year, it may be those most prepared that are most effected under the current selling format.

A reverse tier (most expensive to cheapest) is a novel concept, but has the draw back of inadvertently rewarding some one like me who committed late over those fully committed and prepared to purchase on the first day year after year, and also pinches BMorg in their efforts to raise much needed operating capital (assuming more than not would wait out for lower price tickets).

The Market Adjustment idea where BMorg adjusts prices upward more aggressively to try and squeeze the scalpers out by closing up their margin has merits. But is limited to the assumption that scalpers aren't prepared early on and therefore wouldn't just buy up lowest tier tickets and allow BMorg to establish an ever increasing base price as the event nears for the scalper to work off of (SF Giants fans know how much this system sucks). This also has the obvious side effect of also pricing out those who can't afford higher ticket prices than the current tier system offers.

Another option would be to have multiple monthly/bimonthly roll out dates in which a certain number of tickets made up of a percentage at each tier are made available. Airline seat pricing comes to mind. You have a flight that leaves three times a day and on each of those flights there are three tiers of economy class ticket prices. If you can't swing the price of an available seat on the first, than you can try to get in sooner on the second, etc., etc. If BMorg held onto a significant portion of tickets at each tier and rolled them out they would be able to better control the flow of tickets discouraging scalpers from loading up early as they (the scalpers) would be forced to sit on whatever tier priced tickets they bought until all face value tickets have been sold to try and make their margin. To coincide with this BMorg could simply use sanctioned outlets (like Sports Basement) to sell the most expensive tier tickets from day one. This allows those who need a cheap ticket a fair opportunity to buy one, and those who are not budget constrained to also guarantee they get a ticket at their own convenience. With top tier tickets being sold through the outlets, BMorg would also bring in early capitol on fewer sales potentially allowing for a better cash flow scenario.

Just my long winded idea (thanks for reading it). Obviously if the BLM issues a permit allowing a population increase maybe none of these measures will need to be taken. I know I am already saving for my ticket for next year, as university will be complete. Until then there is always 4th of Juplaya.