One idea for BMorg to mitigate scalping

[theCryptofishist]

Also I think that If the number of tickets aren't raised for 2012 everyone running around talking about being "Prepared" are in for serious awakening when these tickets sell out the first day because everyone gets prepared extra early next year. Leaving haves and the have nots in the same situation we are right now.

Although I believe we should not count our population before the permit is hatched, the lack of a raise in population seems to be tied to the one-year permit, instead of the anticipated 5. No one has reported the BLM making noises that indicate that they are not open to raising population next year.

[Key Man]

A lot of interesting points and opinions on this.

I agree with the early replies here - the database idea is too complicated to happen and would create too many new problems.

Regarding "scalpers" - I'm sure that most tickets on ebay are not being sold by agencies or speculators -- just people were forced to cancel their plans. And probably, some strapped for cash folks thought about what they could get for their tickets, what they'd save in other expenses by not going, and decided that maybe they ought to stay home this year.

But next year the dynamics might be different. True scalpers with no connection or loyalty to BM might interfere with normal sales to burners, and cost burners money in the end. Like McCartney tickets. Seems like it could easily happen, and this would not be good. I really hope that BM org can head this off, and establish a reasonably bullet proof system to keep any middlemen out of the picture.

Also - I don't mind the population increasing, IF the size of BRC also increases. But I don't think it has this year, and I think we'll all be a little more tightly packed together. IMO, next year, if the limit stays at 60,000 the size of the city should increase. Last year was around 55K (wasn't it?) and already it seemed tighter than previous years.

[Dr Jet Sinister]

So yea, Ok. You win. I'm not new.

WINNING!

[nncoco]

Scalpers are going to attempt to do what scalpers do to event like rock concerts - shore up supply and make a seller's market.

If demand is now over 50,000 maybe the city needs to grow but ~10%.

I have never liked the tiered pricing model. It actually penalizes working people with more money than time to participate in first-day sales.

The teared pricing model is the reason that I have rarely buy a ticket before August before. Every year someone I know who couldn't go and gifted me a ticket or sold it to me for a low price. I have had years where I was calling around trying to give away tickets and couldn't find any takers because a ticket is only a small part of what it takes to go to Burning Man as you all know.

Every year there are countless people who determine that they can't go in the last weeks leading up to the event. There will be just as many this year. If you don't have a ticket, don't support scalping, wait for your price and be prepared to sit this year out if need be. The Man will burn again.

[Eric]

and Oh yea I was making a joke about gross excess by non-radically reliant folks from which you pulled a soundbyte to argue with, ignoring its context. Christ

Gotta agree- didn't see a joke in there.

And Fishy's right- ban modern RV's and you're banning not only me & the people I camp with but also lots of theme camp operators, lots of artists for the major pieces, all of the LLC (granted, their RV's are pretty janky). Some of us like beds & fridges & microwaves and A/C after 9am so we can sleep later, and we make it happen.

Yes, there are "luxury" RV's out there, but as long as the people paid to get them (rent or own), they're self-reliant. Period. Just because you don't like how they Burn doesn't mean you can tell them they can't come any more than I can tell the ravers at the sound camps that they're taking up all the space on the playa and should be banned. I mean how many frat boys & sparkle ponies contribute, and there are a lot more of them then

As for the cliche that Burning Man is becoming for the elite: tickets sold for their normal prices from January to July 24th. The crazy ticket prices didn't start until July 25th when people freaked out. It's not like a bunch of millionaires bought 50,000 tickets in the 6 months they were on sale.


Also - never worry about posting your mind as long as you're willing to defend your post (which you are). Few of us agree all the time, but I don't agree with my friends all the time earlier. I'll respect their opinion if i think its good, I'll tell them why I disagree if I think it's bad. Sometimes I even tell them I think they're full of shit (and they the reverse) and we still go do stuff together. Otherwise it would be boring.

[avidiva]

i just wish all of those 1-800-rent an RV people would cover up their generic corporate advertisement-mobiles with something!

[kelizabeth]

And Fishy's right- ban modern RV's and you're banning not only me & the people I camp with but also lots of theme camp operators, lots of artists for the major pieces, all of the LLC (granted, their RV's are pretty janky). Some of us like beds & fridges & microwaves and A/C after 9am so we can sleep later, and we make it happen.

You seem nice. But I'm not going to continue to argue with people about something I wasn't making an argument about in the first place. Tell me I worded my shit wrong and thus did not come across with humor, but please stop telling me how great RVs are. I have no problem with RVs in general. I was commenting on a different element that I find distasteful, from a female perspective. I wasn't proposing anyone be "banned" from burning man. I was making a comment on the prevalence of weekend misogyny. Continuing to try to pick a fight with me on something I could care less about (I have plenty of friends who bring RVs, and am not ethically opposed to them as a camping medium), is pure silliness. I'm not arguing about this. Are my words falling on deaf ears? Frustrating.

I especially appreciated being cursed at (not by you) and called a bigot for insulting affluent people. I practically shot a gulpful of water out of my nose on that one. Ya'll seriously need to chillllll out and put the knives away.

As for the cliche that Burning Man is becoming for the elite: tickets sold for their normal prices from January to July 24th. The crazy ticket prices didn't start until July 25th when people freaked out. It's not like a bunch of millionaires bought 50,000 tickets in the 6 months they were on sale.

I was NOT in any way referring to ticket prices (in this instance). What I thought I made clear was my disagreement with the expectation that one must spend a small fortune to attend the event. That the "ticket" is the cheapest element to attending. My first year, that was true. I spent about ~$500 on building a dome, makeshift cover (later to become a beautiful custom cover), food, water, and gas. The next year I spent about ~$200, and now, being a part of a camp (with dues), I can get away with spending a mere $150, all of which goes on the credit card this year. So, therefore the ticket is the main expense for me. But again, I was not referring to the ticket price - I was arguing with the notion exclaimed by several that, "If you can't afford the ticket by January, you're not radically self reliant and shouldn't go to burning man, otherwise you MUST be mooching." Come on now. Making that sort of statement is exclusionary and ill-informed.

Also - never worry about posting your mind as long as you're willing to defend your post (which you are).

Indeed.

[capjbadger]

*pulls pin and chucks in can-o-worms grenade and runs out*
*muppet flail*

-Badger

Jerk. Stop stalking me!

Waka waka waka...

I especially appreciated being cursed at (not by you) and called a bigot for insulting affluent people. I practically shot a gulpful of water out of my nose on that one.

*Passes the screen wipes*

-Badger

[kelizabeth]

As an afterthought, let's see if this gets me flamed, just for fun:

All shirtcockers should should be immediately ejected from the event upon the first instance of shirtcocking reported to a Ranger, NO EXCUSES.

Wear pants, go naked, or GTFO.

[Eric]

As an afterthought, let's see if this gets me flamed, just for fun:

All shirtcockers should should be immediately ejected from the event upon the first instance of shirtcocking reported to a Ranger, NO EXCUSES.

Wear pants, go naked, or GTFO.

oh, I'll support you on that one. Not because they're half naked, but because they're tacky.

[capjbadger]

As an afterthought, let's see if this gets me flamed, just for fun:

All shirtcockers should should be immediately ejected from the event upon the first instance of shirtcocking reported to a Ranger, NO EXCUSES.

Wear pants, go naked, or GTFO.

BORRRRINGGGGG...

Instead chase them with a big magnifying lens like they were ants.

-Badger

[kelizabeth]

BORRRRINGGGGG...

Instead chase them with a big magnifying lens like they were ants.

-Badger

YES.

[BBadger]

As an afterthought, let's see if this gets me flamed, just for fun:

All shirtcockers should should be immediately ejected from the event upon the first instance of shirtcocking reported to a Ranger, NO EXCUSES.

Wear pants, go naked, or GTFO.

BORRRRINGGGGG...

Instead chase them with a big magnifying lens like they were ants.

I'm glad this thread has returned to civilized conversation on a subject we can all finally agree on.

And no, I'm not being sarcastic.

[The CO]

Pants cannon. Pants Mortar. Pants Airstrike.

[Rice]

{snip}

I was NOT in any way referring to ticket prices (in this instance). What I thought I made clear was my disagreement with the expectation that one must spend a small fortune to attend the event. That the "ticket" is the cheapest element to attending. My first year, that was true. I spent about ~$500 on building a dome, makeshift cover (later to become a beautiful custom cover), food, water, and gas. The next year I spent about ~$200, and now, being a part of a camp (with dues), I can get away with spending a mere $150, all of which goes on the credit card this year. So, therefore the ticket is the main expense for me. But again, I was not referring to the ticket price - I was arguing with the notion exclaimed by several that, "If you can't afford the ticket by January, you're not radically self reliant and shouldn't go to burning man, otherwise you MUST be mooching." Come on now. Making that sort of statement is exclusionary and ill-informed.
{snip}
Indeed.

Hi kelizabeth,

Some of us travel 1600 Miles just to get to BRC. A cheap flight is about $500 plus a car rental of $400, means I have spent $900 getting to BRC, then I have to get supplies and buy the stuff I couldn't bring on the plane. Or I can drive down for about $700 plus ~$250 for motels, which is $950, then I still need supplies but have all my stuff. Since I tent to re-use my gear when I can, I wont mention what has been spent there...

So in my case, the ticket cost is truly the cheapest part of my Burning Man experience.

Of course there are burners who travel much farther than myself Geepers, it takes 5 hours just to get to the US border from my house...

Love Rice

[AussieGaz]

Seems to me that the event is at a watershed. If we learn from the history of other festivals then demand will continue to outstrip supply in future years. If we assume capcaity does not grow significantly, that means tickets will sell out progressively sooner. It won't matter how good your planning is - they will simply sell out and it will become a lottery.

Take Glastonbury here in the UK for example, it got to the point where all 130,000+ tickets would sell out within seconds of going on sale online. This was bad for everyone except scalpers. To control scalping they had to introduce a registration system whereby everyone has to preregister in order to be eligible to buy any tickets. It's a pain in the ass, but it works and most people agree it's a good thing.

http://www.glastonburyregistration.com/

The Buring Man organisers could consider something similar.

p.s. I'm still looking for tickets xx

[The CO]

(cross posted in an attempt to get people to understand scalpers are not the bogeyman they think they are)

Lets do a little math.

50000 tickets at at average of $300 each =$15,000,000

In order to insure that they control the majority (2/3rds) of tickets, this mythical scalping conglomerate need ten million dollars. TEN MILLION DOLLARS.

Next, you can only by four (4) tickets per credit card. That means they need 8334 credit cards to purchase them, entering each number individually.

Then, they have to buy them all on the first day. Let's call it January 15th.

Now, they have to sit on a TEN MILLION DOLLAR ($10,000,000) investment for the next 8 months. If they try to sell before August, people will not buy them.

Scalpers do not work at long term investments. They want to get a ticket & turn it around @ a profit in the shortest amount of time possible. As in hours. Not days. Not weeks. Not months. Not three-quarters of a year.

Some one that can drop that kind of cash and sit on it for 8 months.... is not a scalper. It's the guy in the $200,000 custom motor coach.

[yellfireinatheater]

what if the tickets were printed with the persons name on it and to get in you needed both your ticket and and ID? you could still buy tickets for other people you would just have to give the persons name. a lot like a plane ticket. the downside would be burning man would have to rethink the refund policy, but if BM had a return deadline a month before the event, BM could then resell all the returned tickets in aug at a higher rate and hold them at will call. most everything else could stay the same, will call tickets could still be transferred, (or just cancelled in one name and resold to someone else) there would be longer lines at will call and a little more work (nothing a few more volunteers wont fix) but it might be worth it to do way with scalping and fraudulant tickets entirely, people buying too many tickets and it would slow down the stampede to get tickets in jan because people wouldn't get tickets until they were 99% sure they were going to be able to go.

[ZenoBoy]

I apologize if everyone already knows this info and I'm the late one to the party holding my dick in my hand.

I love this discussion but this is all predicated on the belief that next year and all years beyond are sell outs. I am still not convinced this year is not an anomaly. If BLM bumps the cap for the next round of permits that could satisfy the next few years of ticket demand.

I've been reading the Glastonbury Fest method. It's an interesting system but it would require a big infrastructure change for the BORG and no matter what there are going to be those who don't get the system, computers, the intertoobs, etc and they will scream bloody murder.

Anytime before tickets go on sale, you register with Glastonbury, get a registration number (no reservations 48 hours before tickets go on sale). That registration number is what allows you to buy tickets the day they go on sale. No registration number, no tickies and having a registration does not guarantee you a ticket. You must submit a pic and zip code when you register. Each ticket you buy is printed with the purchasers picture and their zip code. That would mean if your camp has a Ticket Point Person they would need to have a picture of each person buying a ticket and each of those people's registration numbers. If the picture on the ticket doesn't match the person holding said ticket they don't get in.

Tickets are non transferable. Thus eliminating scalpers. I realize that those last minute life changes will mean you're out of your cash if you can't go and that's one tough part of this system.

When tickets initially go on sale eight months before the event, you pay a deposit of 50 pounds per ticket. Then you have 6 months to decide. Six months later the ticketing site reopens and you have one week to pay the remaining balance on the tickets you slapped a deposit on.

This pay up or shut up week happens 2 months before the event. I would suppose that gives the festival time to recycle the tickets that had a deposit but then weren't paid up.

This 2 month gap would allow the BORG to figure out what they have remaining, if any, and could sell those at the gate or open up a second round of ticket sales to registered buyers who are late to the party and possibly at a higher rate?

I get that for many people the two month gap between paying up and the beginning of Burning Man is still too far out to commit but what the fuck? Make up your damn minds already. it's two months out at that point. Flame away on all your reasons as to why life can get in the way but two months remaining is a reasonable amount of time to know if you can go.

It's a complex system and it would probably be a bit of a jump up in costs to the BORG but it would eliminate scalpers. It won't eliminate the master procrastinators though but I don't know if there is much we can do about them if BM is now a GO TO event and every year sees brisk ticket sales.

One question I have, Are there that many scalpers out there that this sort of system is going to be needed or is the scalper scourge an overblown threat?

Werd up!

[Behmer]

Uh, how about instead people just buy their tickets in the six fucking months prior to them being sold out instead of all these hair-brained ticket number or signed verification methods that will only get in the way of the simple sales that make up the bulk of non-BM.com ticket transactions?

Scalping is not a big problem. There are, what, 200 or so auctions on eBay for tickets, maybe 220 tickets in total? That's an insignificant amount of tickets. Sure, people are selling them for $900. Big deal. Scalping at this point and time is the stupid tax that people deserve to pay if they waited this long to buy their tickets, and don't shop around.

Just wait till next year. Scalpers are gonna eat up all the early tix now that its gonna be a proven sellout going forward Also would probably not run around calling everyone stupid who did not get there tickets in time. Many of us were just comfortable with the idea of getting tickets at the door or at the very last moment. Not everyone was lucky enough to hear that they were selling out much faster than expected. Not sure if anyone really 'deserves' to get accepted into the one place where we are all supposed to be equals. Many of the people I know that are stuck without tix are major contributors to the playa. You kinda sound like a dick. jus sayin

[The CO]

Read my post two above yours for scalper debunking.

[ZenoBoy]

I am in agreement with you The CO. I just don't see the scalper scourge as a massive threat.

I think the gist is that people got complacent in thinking "it's never sold out before" and stuck with past habits. Now they got caught with their pants down. Whatever the myriad reasons are for waiting until late in the ticket season the fact remains this year is not like the rest. (Cue Sesame Street Music).

One thing I do hope is a result of this years madness is that everyone pays closer attention to either the JRS, the main site, eplaya or word coming from the regionals. I get that not everyone is hooked into eplaya, they have lives so they are busy, etc. I am just as busy as anyone on these boards and I still find time to check in at least once a month. It's just too much time, too much money and too much prep to not keep an eye on what is going on.

[callahanmsu]

In my opinion, high-demand events will always attract scalpers. When there is talk of an event selling out, that attraction is compounded. Once the event is sold out, the scalping becomes exorbitant, propagating more appeal and desire for 3rd party profits. This becomes a viable market for anyone who wants to capitalize on it. The hype and hysteria involved with all of this will absolutely perpetuate this problem, whether currently big or small, into something worse than it is right now.

If you think there are only a few hundred tickets being scalped this year, I'd say that number is way short. Scalpers know what they're doing. Releasing one at a time on eBay makes it look like much less are available, thus the demand is heightened, making higher prices seem more and more reasonable.

Truth be told, ticket scalping is a viable hustle. Shameful, but viable. Hustlers will hustle. Spend 2 grand in January on tickets, get 8 grand back in August. That's quite the return. I was contacted today by a 3rd party seller, a licensed vendor (?) in Wadsworth selling a pile of tickets for $850 a piece. They stated that it's justified since it's the market value. They then reminded me that they also sell Bikes!

I can only imagine that next year will be worse. Get your tickets early!

[Behmer]

In my opinion, high-demand events will always attract scalpers. When there is talk of an event selling out, that attraction is compounded. Once the event is sold out, the scalping becomes exorbitant, propagating more appeal and desire for 3rd party profits. This becomes a viable market for anyone who wants to capitalize on it. The hype and hysteria involved with all of this will absolutely perpetuate this problem, whether currently big or small, into something worse than it is right now.

If you think there are only a few hundred tickets being scalped this year, I'd say that number is way short. Scalpers know what they're doing. Releasing one at a time on eBay makes it look like much less are available, thus the demand is heightened, making higher prices seem more and more reasonable.

Truth be told, ticket scalping is a viable hustle. Shameful, but viable. Hustlers will hustle. Spend 2 grand in January on tickets, get 8 grand back in August. That's quite the return. I was contacted today by a 3rd party seller, a licensed vendor (?) in Wadsworth selling a pile of tickets for $850 a piece. They stated that it's justified since it's the market value. They then reminded me that they also sell Bikes!

I can only imagine that next year will be worse. Get your tickets early!

Exactly. Next year my alarm clock will be set.

[andy]

This is technically a cross-post, since I made this suggestion on a thread I started, but if scalping is an issue the solution might be to only sell one ticket per "ID" (name/address combo) and have to show matching ID at the gate. BMORG would buy back unneeded tickets until (insert date here) less a small handling fee and put them back in the pool. If they do sell out, BMORG maintains a first-come first-served waiting list (with deposits or credit cards) and as tickets are sold back to BMORG, they are instantly sold to the next person on the list. If you put your name on the list, and realize that you can't go, take your name off the list right away, otherwise you may be sold a ticket (which you can still sell back, less the handling fee.)

I do understand the very real problem that overseas burners face - if you buy a ticket before your airfare, you may find no cheap flights available. If you buy the airfare first, BM tickets may sell out. Therefore you need the cash to do both at the same time. (In fact, not all airlines sell tickets 9 months in advance.)

Another suggestion for those with little cash: BMORG could take "deposits" on a ticket. Example: $50 deposit guarantees John Q. SMith of 123 Main Street a ticket at whatever price tier he buys at a later time. John gets his $50 back/credited when he buys the ticket. If BMORG determines that they are almost sold out, including deposit-held tickets, John gets an email asking him to buy his ticket within (insert number here) days or it will be returned to the pool. In the best Burner tradition, we realize that it may not be John's fault that he can't go this year, so his $50 isn't lost - it carries forward as a deposit for next year - but if it isn't used within (insert number here) years, it's lost. John can't get his deposit back nor can he change the name/address on his ticket, but situations like address changes or name changes are handled on a case-by-case basis by faxing in some documentation.

[kelizabeth]

Another suggestion for those with little cash: BMORG could take "deposits" on a ticket. Example: $50 deposit guarantees John Q. SMith of 123 Main Street a ticket at whatever price tier he buys at a later time. John gets his $50 back/credited when he buys the ticket. If BMORG determines that they are almost sold out, including deposit-held tickets, John gets an email asking him to buy his ticket within (insert number here) days or it will be returned to the pool. In the best Burner tradition, we realize that it may not be John's fault that he can't go this year, so his $50 isn't lost - it carries forward as a deposit for next year - but if it isn't used within (insert number here) years, it's lost. John can't get his deposit back nor can he change the name/address on his ticket, but situations like address changes or name changes are handled on a case-by-case basis by faxing in some documentation.

Though I don't think the BORG would put forth the infrastructure to do this, it is an intriguing idea, and would be nice for the folks who, for one reason or another, are not able to afford a ticket right on opening day, but still wish to secure a ticket.

[Starman97]

The ticket thing is easily solved, just raise the price by $100 and then they wont sell out. If they do, then raise the price by $100 again until the event stops selling out. Problem solved. Why let the scalpers make all the money. Use that extra $100 to fund ART, you know, all the cool stuff that you come out the the playa to see.

But what about the dirty hippies who are on unemployment and welfare, how will they go? Dunno, that's like their problem eh?
Hey if they can afford 420, then they can put a quarter in the jar for every hit and next thing you know, there's enough for two tickets. Jah willing. That, or make friends with people who have real jobs and like mow their lawns or wash their cars or something like that.

Really, given the reality of our Peak Oil world, the cost of getting to the playa is going to be more that the price of a ticket for anyone who lives outside the state of Nevada.

[kelizabeth]

The ticket thing is easily solved, just raise the price by $100 and then they wont sell out. If they do, then raise the price by $100 again until the event stops selling out. Problem solved. Why let the scalpers make all the money. Use that extra $100 to fund ART, you know, all the cool stuff that you come out the the playa to see.

But what about the dirty hippies who are on unemployment and welfare, how will they go? Dunno, that's like their problem eh?
Hey if they can afford 420, then they can put a quarter in the jar for every hit and next thing you know, there's enough for two tickets. Jah willing. That, or make friends with people who have real jobs and like mow their lawns or wash their cars or something like that.

Really, given the reality of our Peak Oil world, the cost of getting to the playa is going to be more that the price of a ticket for anyone who lives outside the state of Nevada.

That would be exclusive to people with meager financial means. The tiered ticketing system and low income application is the best way to ensure a range of people are welcome rather than an economically stable elite. May want to change up the final tier, break it up into two tiers with $400 tickets for the final set, but raising the overall price is not a friendly suggestion.

[portaplaya]

The ticket thing is easily solved, just raise the price by $100 and then they wont sell out. If they do, then raise the price by $100 again until the event stops selling out. Problem solved. Why let the scalpers make all the money. Use that extra $100 to fund ART, you know, all the cool stuff that you come out the the playa to see.

But what about the dirty hippies who are on unemployment and welfare, how will they go? Dunno, that's like their problem eh?
Hey if they can afford 420, then they can put a quarter in the jar for every hit and next thing you know, there's enough for two tickets. Jah willing. That, or make friends with people who have real jobs and like mow their lawns or wash their cars or something like that.

Really, given the reality of our Peak Oil world, the cost of getting to the playa is going to be more that the price of a ticket for anyone who lives outside the state of Nevada.

Except that BRC LLC is officially undergoing the change toward becoming a non-profit. They need to get their money-in/money-out balanced first before they can complete that. What you suggest would make that impossible.

[$tormy]

A super cheap way for everyone to avoid this next year is for there to be a gas gauge for ticket sales posted on the BM website. A nice huge SIMPLE graphic. When sales start, the needle is at 50,000 and goes down by the daily sales tally, eventually reaching oh shit. Easy, cheap warning for everyone when you should get off your asses and buy tickets. This is a fair, honest, easy and cheap way to keep the burners focused...hard to do sometimes.....look a butterfly.....but I digress.

I myself don't have a ticket but will fleabay in a few days when the prices slither back down a bit. I usually buy late because I believe in what the tiered system was meant to do. How many well off idiots buy the cheapest tickets they can? ALOT! Part of gifting in my estimation is let those who can least afford it buy first. Isn't that why there is a tiered system? So those who let those who needed cheaper tickets go first are now in a tight spot. The system backfired a bit there. I guess no good deed goes unpunished. Now with the GAS GAUGE, there would be some warning for folks and the tiered system would still have a chance to work if those buying tickets would use it ethically. My 2 cents.

$tormy