One idea for BMorg to mitigate scalping

[on+on]

It seems that folks are more outraged by the scalping than by the actual end of ticket sales. Doesn't the BMorg have a way of mitigating this? It's really taking a deep toll on the attitudes of everyone I know, ticketed or not.

One idea:

When someone offers a ticket for sale, they at some point will have to report the ticket code/number to a potential buyer, right? Couldn't the BMorg invalidate any ticket numbers reported to be selling for over face value (which, if I'm not mistaken, might be a violation of the agreement made when purchasing a ticket)? BMorg could then issue new tickets to a queue of folks who are vouched for by other current ticketholders (to dissuade scalpers getting back in).

I know that this would require some database work to keep track of valid and invalid ticket codes; I also know that people would start passing of invalid tickets to people not in the know--but I think that's inevitable with counterfeiting already.

Yes, I know that the BMorg has limited capacity and that this is not necessarily their "fault," but there's got to be a way to mitigate the crazy profiteering. Some burners are placing false inflated bids to sabotage auctions--this isn't exactly a great thing...

[BBadger]

Uh, how about instead people just buy their tickets in the six fucking months prior to them being sold out instead of all these hair-brained ticket number or signed verification methods that will only get in the way of the simple sales that make up the bulk of non-BM.com ticket transactions?

Scalping is not a big problem. There are, what, 200 or so auctions on eBay for tickets, maybe 220 tickets in total? That's an insignificant amount of tickets. Sure, people are selling them for $900. Big deal. Scalping at this point and time is the stupid tax that people deserve to pay if they waited this long to buy their tickets, and don't shop around.

[trilobyte]

On the money, BBadger. The idea of throwing more resources (and cost to the event, and ultimately ticket prices) at the problem of mitigating the scalping of a few hundred tickets bugs me. On the whole of the event, even this year, it's a very minor problem. And it's a problem that only really penalizes those who ignored all the information and all the warnings in the first place. Easiest way to have avoided it, and easiest way to avoid it in the future is to have secured a ticket by other means, first.

[GypsyLionEyes]

Hm, I don't get the negative attitude towards people who missed out on buying tickets. I didn't buy in time because I had to save money to purchase. Now I finally have enough and they are sold out. So what? I should be looked down upon becasuse I'm not made of cash and had to work and save in order to attend. No, I think scalpers who are selling their tickets for way too much are the ones that should be looked down upon. I have had people offer me a ticket for between $560 and $1000 so far and have turned each of them down becasuse it's not right. And the thing of it is I could afford the $560 ticket, but how is that fair to the rest of the people out there who can't? Who maybe had to work and save in hopes of getting a ticket just to find out that scalpers have plenty but aren't giving them up unless you're some trust fund kid? I keep reading some really mean-spirited postings from you, BBadger, directed towards those of us who don't already have tickets. I think it's inapporpriate and you should back off. We all just want to show up in Black Rock City and enjoy the festival we always have. Good for you, you have and ticket and I hope you thourouhgly enjoy yourself, but stop rubbing it in that some of us may not get to go. I for one am supremely confident that I will find that face-value ticket at the last minute but the truth is many wont and they don't need to be berated for it.

[morpheusfilm]

Well spoken sista! My sentiment exactly- I didn't buy ahead because I work freelance contracts and never know more than a few weeks before if I CAN go. I also had a camp mate who said they most likely had an extra one and they would hold it for me (ended up a new relationship changed that) Yes, i could buy a ticket every year and sell it when i can't go, which is probably the route I will now take.

[jkisha]

What stupid logic is that. First, if you couldn't save money in time (less than $360.00, might I remind you), you probably shouldn't be going to Burning Man in the first place. The ticket is the least of the expense. Couldn't that money be better spend on an education that would enable you to earn enough money to not have to save 12 months for a $360.00 ticket? Just wondering.

Hm, I don't get the negative attitude towards people who missed out on buying tickets. I didn't buy in time because I had to save money to purchase. Now I finally have enough and they are sold out. So what? I should be looked down upon becasuse I'm not made of cash and had to work and save in order to attend. No, I think scalpers who are selling their tickets for way too much are the ones that should be looked down upon. I have had people offer me a ticket for between $560 and $1000 so far and have turned each of them down becasuse it's not right. And the thing of it is I could afford the $560 ticket, but how is that fair to the rest of the people out there who can't? Who maybe had to work and save in hopes of getting a ticket just to find out that scalpers have plenty but aren't giving them up unless you're some trust fund kid? I keep reading some really mean-spirited postings from you, BBadger, directed towards those of us who don't already have tickets. I think it's inapporpriate and you should back off. We all just want to show up in Black Rock City and enjoy the festival we always have. Good for you, you have and ticket and I hope you thourouhgly enjoy yourself, but stop rubbing it in that some of us may not get to go. I for one am supremely confident that I will find that face-value ticket at the last minute but the truth is many wont and they don't need to be berated for it.

[Eric]

Hm, I don't get the negative attitude towards people who missed out on buying tickets.

I've said it other places, but the negative attitude isn't towards people who missed out. Most of us on here are long time Burners, many of us know people caught up in this.

The negative attitude is towards people who whine, spin tales, beg & plead and yell about how the event has sold out because they didn't get a ticket (betcha they wouldn't be saying that if they had one) while not admitting any responsibility they may be partially at fault for not having one.

If you read the threads you'll notice that people who don't spin tales of woe and just knuckle down to see how they can get one are getting pointers, positive vibes and even assistance.



Oh, writing long manifesto's on how Burning Man is fucked up now and how scalpers are ruining the event is sure to get you flamed. Just an advance warning....

[brnr96]

Flaming, is what Burning Man is all about, after all...

[jkisha]

Flaming, is what Burning Man is all about, after all...

[Eric]

Flaming, is what Burning Man is all about, after all...

it's also what quite a few camps around 7:30 & E are about...


*cough*

[capjbadger]

Hm, I don't get the negative attitude towards people who missed out on buying tickets. I didn't buy in time because I had to save money to purchase.

When did you start saving? If that wasn't early enough, why didn't you start sooner?

Peple like you are getting grief because you will not take responsibility for your own actions (or lack of) and instead try to blame others.
This is not the place to be given slack.

Do for yourself or do without. That applies everywhere. The sooner you learn that, the happier you'll be.


-Badger

[GypsyLionEyes]

Hope I get to meet all of you on the playa and have a drink and some laughs. We don't need to fight or flame each other when we could instead be friends and create positive relationships instead of negative posts.

[capjbadger]

Hope I get to meet all of you on the playa and have a drink and some laughs. We don't need to fight or flame each other when we could instead be friends and create positive relationships instead of negative posts.

Glad to hear you don't take all this personally (many people do).
Drop by Lamplighters lounge for a drink anytime.

-Badger

[Z. Burgermeister]

some people live paycheck to paycheck and this is the only fun they have all year...Never crossed my mind would be no more room in a huge open frakin desert... But i just have to say that comment on saving for education was Harsh "bro you toasted my mellow"...our population is expanding but the job market surely isnt.

[The CO]

:?: some people live paycheck to paycheck and this is the only fun they have all year..

I'm one of them, at least on the paycheck. I have fun everywhere. I am the textbook definition of underemployed. So's my wife. So's our oldest daughter.

And yet, by using our non-employed time to work with some amazing people, and by planning and saving a bit at a time, we managed to get our tickets to Burning Man, all while managing a fire conclave and a theme camp, and in the case of OregonRed & JekJek, attend college.

As such, people that use those excuses as reasons they didn't get a ticket shall recieve no quarter from me.

[Eric]

some people live paycheck to paycheck and this is the only fun they have all year

I've been unemployed for a year & a half (getting unemployment still), have no savings left and don't use credit cards (I'm not stupid). Through friends, through skills, through working my ass off to make it happen I'll be going to the Burn with almost no money being exchanged at all. An amazing gift, a barter for camping, selling what I can make to get the food. Everything was in place before the 25th. It almost all fell through for me in early July, but friends helped make it possible.

If you really want to go you make it happen.

Oh- it's also not the only fun I have all year. It may be the most fun, but if it was the only fun I would be living a miserable existence.

[jkisha]

No need to explain, we've seen your Facebook page!

some people live paycheck to paycheck and this is the only fun they have all year

I've been unemployed for a year & a half (getting unemployment still), have no savings left and don't use credit cards (I'm not stupid). Through friends, through skills, through working my ass off to make it happen I'll be going to the Burn with almost no money being exchanged at all. An amazing gift, a barter for camping, selling what I can make to get the food. Everything was in place before the 25th. It almost all fell through for me in early July, but friends helped make it possible.

If you really want to go you make it happen.

Oh- it's also not the only fun I have all year. It may be the most fun, but if it was the only fun I would be living a miserable existence.

[Sic Pup]

I'm unemployed and have been living on savings for over a year. I lived well below my means for many years, while my co-workers were blowing bonuses every year I was depositing them. I figure there is enough for this trip and then some cushion, I think I can stretch it to 12/21/12 so I should be golden. No debt at all, so I'll leave with a clean slate.

If I skip BM, it might buy me a couple of months, but not worth the trade off for me. If need be I'll drive a cab or something. There's no job beneath me, as I told my daughters there's something to be learned as well as honor in any type of work.

[petdrbowie]

Not to reignite passions or anything, but, the real problem may actually be next year, and we might as all well be thinking about it.
Perhaps this is a random event, a case of the desire to go to BM greater than the rate at which the BLM allowed the population to grow. Therefore, it is possible that next year will return to normal.

However, there is a monkey wrench, and that is all the scalpers, the professional ones I mean. If there is a perceived undersupply of tickets, the scalpers will be working their computers on the day of the sale in January, and then they will release the tickets at higher prices. I don't honestly see an answer to that. What if tickets sell out next year in January -- to scalpers. Then we are all to blame.

The solution is simple - nobody buy from a scalper. But that is obviously not happening - see ebay, stubhub, whatever. So, hearing people's thoughts still makes sense, even if it doesn't really matter for this year ultimately. BMORG is going to have to think about it, at the very least.

Peter

[yellfireinatheater]

This is all making me very sad. I have never seen burners that are not in a camp meeting get this heated before. The scalping has got me really down too. I have my ticket, but my BF just paid $900 for his as opposed to the last 2 years of buying his ticket at the gate. Not because he's unprepared, but because he works construction and simply doesn't have the cash until summer. He's upset, but not because of the extra money. He feels disillusioned and disappointed with his fellow burners, as well as himself. Yes, he should have bought his ticket in May or June, but we didn't even know BM had a cap (which now seems very naive in hindsight) But in my experience, even the people who get their tix in Jan are still unprepared in other ways. The chaos of simply getting to the playa is just the nature of the beast. maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge. We shouldn't be finger pointing and making the people with out tickets or over priced tickets feel any worse then they all ready do. I haven't missed a burn since my first one and would be devastated if I couldn't go. I know long time burners that can't go this year and my heart goes out to them. But to the point- I agree scalping, while completely against the principles is not a huge problem YET. As much as it sickens me, most the people selling tix on ebay are not real scalpers, they're probably burners who couldn't go and saw an all too tempting chance to make some money. However I am fearful for what the pro scalpers will be doing next year and I agree we will need to think of a solution.

[bleurose]

As someone who both bought tickets for our group (5 of them) well in advance ($240) and now has the problem of trying to add one more person who wasn't able to go until just this past week, I think we understand both sides of this issue. No one really expected the event to sell out despite all the warnings. I am glad BMorg warned everyone repeatedly, but that of course doesn't deal with the problem of people who end up not even knowing whether they can go (and in our case, the person wasn't even part of our "group" until early this summer and so we couldn't anticipate their interest and ability to attend). Of course, in the past I always found it funny when scalpers tried to sell tickets on craigslist: "the event is sold out, but I will see you a ticket for $400" and I would do everything I could to post announcements that all people had to do is walk over to Sports Basement and buy a regular priced REAL ticket (for sure) for $320 or whatever it cost at that point.

And now, it has happened, and the scalpers are going to finally reap their "rewards". And while I agree that the "right" thing to do is to refuse, does that REALLY solve the problem? So lets see, if we refuse to buy an expensive ticket (which we can afford) our friend won't get to go, and someone else will because the marketplace is what it is. There will be people ready to pay premium prices and they will. So right now, as frustrating as it seems, we are prepared to accept a higher than normal price.

And worse, as has been mentioned, this will effect next year as well, because next year I will buy TEN tickets (if I can) in advance, knowing that there is almost no way I won't be able to sell them near the end of the summer if I don't have enough people who need the tickets within my group. What this will means is that the event will sell out even EARLIER next year than it did this year and then the effect of scalpers will be even greater. If I end up with 2 extra tickets and want to sell them and the going price is a 50% premium, will I do that? Probably not (I tend to stick to my burner principles) but it will be difficult and I might look for some other way of differentiating the people I might want to sell to from the rest of the crowd.

So now, I will try to propose my own suggestion for BMorg (I hope someone is listening).

Next year, stage the ticket sales. Rather than putting ALL of the tickets on sale in January/February, make sure that there ARE 5000 tickets left to sell in August. That way, there WON'T be a sell-out until the very very end. At the very least, this will postpone the full impact of scalpers. We are now going to see a full month of what happens when Burning Man tickets become incredibly scarce. We have heard the horror stories of $5000 EBay tickets. Some of us, who went to Fourth of JuPlaya and actually like that MUCH more than Burning Man itself (goes back to the early 90s days, small groups of people having a good time in whatever way they choose, and NO TICKET COST) considered, what if we all sold our tickets on eBay for $1000, we'd reap a HUGE profit (our group has over 25 people with tickets) and we could all go out to the playa, camp about 10 miles north of the city (which is still open for camping during Burning Man) and just have a great time for a week. Of course its not gonna happen, but its fun to consider it.

Staged sales would at least mitigate that stampede. Lets say all tickets on sale through July are gone on July 20th, but everyone knows that 5000 (or 10000) more tickets will become available on August 1st or 15th. Well, why would anyone pay a scalper $500 at the end of July if there are going to be a reasonably large number of tickets on sale in August for more reasonable prices? Most people would just wait patiently and play the "online ticket roulette" whenever the new tickets become available. It also increases the risks to scalpers who might be inclined to save up tickets early in the process in the hopes of playing the endgame. They'd have to hope enough people had gotten caught up in the "fever" by August to have a real market. The best way to deal with scalpers is to make sure their market is minimal. When they see it is too risky to play the game, they move on to more lucrative territory.

Unfortunately, it looks like 2011 will be the year that the scalpers have their way with some of us. C'est la vie. There is no law (in Nevada OR California) that prevents scalping tickets and contrary to what anyone suggested, there is no "contractual" violation that scalping a Burning Man ticket incurs. When you buy something, you have the legal right to resell it for any price you can get. Does anyone cry foul that Sotheby's sells Pablo Picasso prints for outrageous "scalping" prices? No, that's just the going price for a rare commodity or valuable item. I'd love to buy a Picasso for $9.99 but I have no "right" to do that. I've always found the arguments against scalpers to be a little specious. They take a risk and sometimes they profit, sometimes they don't. Its an ugly game and its sad that some people feel the need to do it when the community doesn't like the practice, but its a free country too. At least it ought to be.

So I agree we should all shun scalpers if possible, but also please have sympathy for those of us in predicaments (not necessarily caused by stupidity or lack of planning but sometimes just be pure circumstances) if we feel the need to acquiesce.

That being said, if anyone has a spare ticket they are willing to sell for face value or close to it (one way or the other), please let me know! We would even be willing to throw in a nice camp-cooked meal for you during the week of the event!

Best regards and see you all at home,

Bleurose

[shroom]

I like the idea of staging the tickets. Doesn't seem like that would be hard to do.

[theCryptofishist]

I think that what would happen is that we'd have two opening days of ticket sales and two "ohmygosh, idonthavemy ticket" rushes.

I think that would be worse, not better.

If there's a ticket problem next year, with the expanded cap in place. (and if there is staged ticket sales, I think that might create a crisis right there...)

[The CO]

No one really expected the event to sell out despite all the warnings.

Do not assign attitudes, opinions or foolish thinking to me or any of the Old Timers*. We expected it, because we paid attention.

if we refuse to buy an expensive ticket (which we can afford) our friend won't get to go

That sucks, but if you really want to mitigate scalping, don't buy an above-face ticket. If you do, you are the one giving the scalpers power.

make sure that there ARE 5000 tickets left to sell in August. That way, there WON'T be a sell-out until the very very end.

There wasn't a sell-out until the end. Tickets were on sale for eight (8) months, and sold out one month before the event. This 5000 ticket idea will do nothing except create more whining when only 5000 people get those tickets. We'll see even more people on complaining about how they didn't get one of them, and how the....

Oh fuck it. I'm done.

*Old Timer means you were on the board before July 25, 2011

[capjbadger]

On the thought of changing up the tiers...

With demand being what it is, and what it will be next year, that kind of throws out the whole pushing people to buy early so the Org has operational capital. What do you think of two tiers? Regular price and gate price?

I'm operating on the theory that the 1st tier lower price tickets will not be the driving force behind opening day ticket sales next year. This should take a little bit of the sting out of the yearly DDOS attack we hit the ticket servers with as well.

Low Income and Scholarship tickets would remain the same of course.

-Badger

[Bounce530]

What about the idea that somebody was throwing around a while ago, the idea of reversing the tiers. Start with the highest priced tiers on ticket day, and then open the lower cost tiers, as the higher priced one sell out. That way if you really want a ticket when they first go on sale you will get one, and it may even curb the scalping a bit, as you wouldn't really know when the lowest price tix would go on sale.

[The CO]

All that would do is reward the unprepared. Fuck 'em.

[kelizabeth]

Hm, I don't get the negative attitude towards people who missed out on buying tickets. I didn't buy in time because I had to save money to purchase.

When did you start saving? If that wasn't early enough, why didn't you start sooner?

Peple like you are getting grief because you will not take responsibility for your own actions (or lack of) and instead try to blame others.
This is not the place to be given slack.

Do for yourself or do without. That applies everywhere. The sooner you learn that, the happier you'll be.


-Badger

That''s, like, your opinion, man.

[jkisha]

Not only is it a GOOD opinion. It is the prevailing opinion shared by the majority of people that don't walk around with their heads up their asses.

Hm, I don't get the negative attitude towards people who missed out on buying tickets. I didn't buy in time because I had to save money to purchase.

When did you start saving? If that wasn't early enough, why didn't you start sooner?

Peple like you are getting grief because you will not take responsibility for your own actions (or lack of) and instead try to blame others.
This is not the place to be given slack.

Do for yourself or do without. That applies everywhere. The sooner you learn that, the happier you'll be.


-Badger

That''s, like, your opinion, man.

[kelizabeth]

When someone offers a ticket for sale, they at some point will have to report the ticket code/number to a potential buyer, right? Couldn't the BMorg invalidate any ticket numbers reported to be selling for over face value (which, if I'm not mistaken, might be a violation of the agreement made when purchasing a ticket)? BMorg could then issue new tickets to a queue of folks who are vouched for by other current ticketholders (to dissuade scalpers getting back in).

I could be wrong about this, and I may have overlooked someone else already mentioning this on this thread, but I don't see gate checkers radioing in (or whatever) ticket numbers for every single individual to arrive at the gate to determine if the ticket is good or not. Or something like barcode scanners for that matter.

And I'm pretty sure BM is not going to devalue any tickets just because they are being re-sold at more than face value. That's not their responsibility, and they aren't going to build infrastructure around something that isn't their fault.

Now the staggered release of tickets idea might have some meat to it, reserving a pack of will-call tickets for July or August release. This would help a lot of last minute musical acts, artists, and regular folk who were not sure if they were going, were invited along to help out a particular camp, lost tickets, whatever the reason. That block of tickets would be the "gate price". Hell, reward those who bought early, lower the first block price(s), and raise the price of whatever goes on sale in July/August. That seems fair. Something like that. Also something needs to be done about the ticket opening day DDOS issue. Something can be done, there are a few good ways to help alleviate the server strain, it just has to actually be done.

An idea I had about releasing a block closer to the event, is to have them at select walk-in outlets in high volume areas like the Bay Area and Reno, and only allow (as I believe it is now) two (2) tickets to be purchased per person, at the highest price. As in a second release at walk-in outlets. This would eliminate a second release day strain on BM's servers that others were worried about, and I'm sure the walk-in outlets would welcome a second round of potential customers (I ALWAYS end up buying stuff at sports basement when I go to get my ticket). Again, a higher price penalty to the late buyers, that would benefit the early buyers with drastically lower-priced tickets. Everyone wins.

I didn't re-read any of this before posting it because my lunch break is over, it may very well sound like pure disorganized gibberish. /shrug