Burning Man tickets and McDonald's

[capjbadger]

The rest of the board hasn't changed. Quit reading just the Tickets threads.

-Badger

[kelizabeth]

Didn't intend to come off angry. It's just that the eplaya has dramatically changed over the last 2 days...from cool ideas and stories and helping each other out (with the occasional bitch and moan) to this absurd flood of diatribes about how so-in-so is greedy, and this person should not be able to go, you aren't a "real burner," and those people should have to blah, blah, blah. I was a lurker last year, and decided to get off my ass and participate here this year. I have enjoyed the forum VERY MUCH...until the last 36 hours or so. It's just awful.

Last year was my first burn, and it profoundly changed me, I like to think for the better.

I still step back and re-read the 10 principles every so often, and then try and self examine if I am following those tenants.

Perhaps we should ALL do this from time to time, because from where I sit, it looks like a lot are forgetting.

http://www.burningman.com/whatisburningman/about_burningman/principles.html

Very sound points you make, and I agree. I myself have been a lurker all over ePlaya for the past several years, and I feel like kind of a jerk for this whole ticket fiasco being the impetus for my sudden participation.

The fact of the matter is, the population has grown so much, and there's really nothing fair that can be done about it or the problems (people problems) that come with it. At least BMorg doesn't sell weekend only tickets, that would really suck. Maybe a cap on the number of tickets that can be bought on one card (unless that's the case already, I can't remember I always buy at walk-in outlets)? That's the only really workable suggestion I've heard this year to avoid the scammers.

[capjbadger]

That would screw over camps that pool money to one person to handle the camp's tickets.
Plus scalpers can easily get around that.

-Badger

[kelizabeth]

That would screw over camps that pool money to one person to handle the camp's tickets.
Plus scalpers can easily get around that.

-Badger

Man, I wish my camp was coordinated enough to have a ticket point person! Well hell. Then its an awful, dirty, nasty, evil world and there's no reasonable way around it.

[capjbadger]

That would screw over camps that pool money to one person to handle the camp's tickets.
Plus scalpers can easily get around that.

-Badger

Man, I wish my camp was coordinated enough to have a ticket point person! Well hell. Then its an awful, dirty, nasty, evil world and there's no reasonable way around it.

How is free-market economy "awful, dirty, nasty, evil"?

Funny, typically the only people that see it has a bad thing are the ones without the money.
How did this country get trained to always believe they are the victim? Christ... takes some personal responsibility.

-Badger

[DustHand]

I enjoy the posts from the ones that say "we have our plane tickets, RV, shade structures, and everything else...now we just need tickets!"

For real? Would you buy an airline ticket, etc to go see U2 or any other band, book your hotel, and all of the other details, EXCEPT the ticket? No...any sane person would get the ticket FIRST. Once my friend and I decided to go again, the first thing I did was buy my ticket. THEN we started making the other arrangements. Sort of like buying all of the materials to build a house...and then saying "where am I going to BUILD it?? No one said I would need land!!!"

And the "it never sold out before" line is lame...as countless others have stated, if you didn't know this was coming, you would probably die out there, so consider it a blessing.

[kelizabeth]

How is free-market economy "awful, dirty, nasty, evil"?

Funny, typically the only people that see it has a bad thing are the ones without the money.
How did this country get trained to always believe they are the victim? Christ... takes some personal responsibility.

-Badger

Sounds like you need to read some Derrick Jensen.

[DustHand]

Sounds like you need to read some Derrick Jensen.

Not familiar, so I looked him up...
From the Derrick Jensen Wikipedia page:

"Jensen states "Every morning when I awake I ask myself whether I should write or blow up a dam. I tell myself I should keep writing, though I'm not sure that's right.""

Sounds like a terrorist to me.

I am sure he would love to sit in the dark for several years after he blew that dam up...

[capjbadger]

How is free-market economy "awful, dirty, nasty, evil"?

Funny, typically the only people that see it has a bad thing are the ones without the money.
How did this country get trained to always believe they are the victim? Christ... takes some personal responsibility.

-Badger

Sounds like you need to read some Derrick Jensen.

To what end? What point are you trying to make in a beating-around-the-bush manner?

Say what you mean rather than letting other speak for you.

-Badger

[Eric]

How is free-market economy "awful, dirty, nasty, evil"?

Funny, typically the only people that see it has a bad thing are the ones without the money.
How did this country get trained to always believe they are the victim? Christ... takes some personal responsibility.

-Badger

Sounds like you need to read some Derrick Jensen.

To what end? What point are you trying to make in a beating-around-the-bush manner?

Say what you mean rather than letting other speak for you.

-Badger

I think it's that you should be an anarcho-hippie environmentalist who lives without the trappings of modern society and thinks that indigenous cultures formed around communities of several thousand individuals is scalable to a planet with over 6 billion people on it.

You know, one of those people who thinks, not does.

[capjbadger]

I think it's that you should be an anarcho-hippie environmentalist who lives without the trappings of modern society and thinks that indigenous cultures formed around communities of several thousand individuals is scalable to a planet with over 6 billion people on it.

You know, one of those people who is a waste of air.

Ahhh ok. Fixed.

-Badger

[kelizabeth]

I think it's that you should be an anarcho-hippie environmentalist who lives without the trappings of modern society and thinks that indigenous cultures formed around communities of several thousand individuals is scalable to a planet with over 6 billion people on it.

You know, one of those people who thinks, not does.

But wasn't burning man started by anarcho-hippies? I believe it came out of the TAZ tradition, which was an anarchist concept.

[capjbadger]

I think it's that you should be an anarcho-hippie environmentalist who lives without the trappings of modern society and thinks that indigenous cultures formed around communities of several thousand individuals is scalable to a planet with over 6 billion people on it.

You know, one of those people who thinks, not does.

But wasn't burning man started by anarcho-hippies? I believe it came out of the TAZ tradition, which was an anarchist concept.

No! It was started by Dr. Dre.
Please read around the board.

-Badger

[Eric]

But wasn't burning man started by anarcho-hippies? I believe it came out of the TAZ tradition, which was an anarchist concept.

No, it was started by a guy & some friends burning a figure on a beach (choose your own myth as to why they were doing it, there are several stories).

When they got pushed off Baker Beach in SF they joined up with the Cacophony Society (also a muddy story) and joined them in the Black Rock Desert.

There were definite anarchist elements in the founding years, but notice that they had to incorporate as an LLC in '97 to keep the event going as it had grown too large. They had to move away from being anarcho-hippies and into the real world or end the event.

Things that work great at small scales do not necessarily work at all at large scale: ie a kibbutz is small scale communism (or "communalism") that can work extremely well, the USSR was large scale communism that failed completely. Jensens ideals are great for small communities of like minded individuals, they will fail on a larger scale.

[kelizabeth]

But wasn't burning man started by anarcho-hippies? I believe it came out of the TAZ tradition, which was an anarchist concept.

No, it was started by a guy & some friends burning a figure on a beach (choose your own myth as to why they were doing it, there are several stories).

When they got pushed off Baker Beach in SF they joined up with the Cacophony Society (also a muddy story) and joined them in the Black Rock Desert.

Cacophony Society! That's what I was thinking about. And I guess I meant to say when it started as a "larger" and "different" event in Nevada, not its roots on Baker Beach.

And you're right on all those other points.

To what end? What point are you trying to make in a beating-around-the-bush manner?

Say what you mean rather than letting other speak for you.

-Badger

To elaborate (and I'm not a Jensen-ite, I only said that to yank your chain), you suggested that "only people that see [free market economy] as a bad thing are the ones without the money." I was only demonstrating that it can't be put that simply, and others may differ ideologically than you. And if someone differs ideologically from you, it seems a pointless and silly waste of time to get in a flame war on the internet explaining each others point of view to the other, no? Agree to disagree.

[capjbadger]

Not flame war. I just love a good debate.

The chain yanking only failed since I wasn't sure who the guy was without doing some googling.

I said typically they were the ones to complain about free-market, not always. Big difference.

This whole ticket thing just smacks of the usual culture of victimhood we have around here.

If you want something, go get it. I have no pity for those who can't be bothered to do for themselves and instead expect to be hand-held. People seem to only remember the parts of the Burning Man ideas that benefit themselves...

How did I get my ticket? I worked my ass off for it. Lets do the math:
4th of julplaya weekend: 20 hours (easily)
3 weeks on playa setup building/teardown: at least 210 hours
X
At a pitiful wage of $15/hr (what can I say? SF Bay area wage and cost of living is rather high)
=
I paid $3450 for my ticket. And those hours are most likely low...
If it were are my normal wage, we're talking $5520.
And this doesn't take into account the building I did at home for the camp at home.

Shall I now cry for someone that is whining about having to spend ~$600 on a ticket? I think not.

-Badger

[AQUARIUSatBRC420]

Amen Dusthand! I was a virgin 2010 as well and this year I am building, creating and planning in ways I wouldn't have known how before my first burn. The experience turns cool peeps into burners.

But, I was there from Monday to Saturday. Woulda stayed for Temple Burn had I not had to get back to work. And I agree that gates should be closed earlier than Thursday to keep the tourists, frats and moopers outta the house. Those than really care will still find a way to take the time off to make the pilgrimage.

Oh, and I'm from LA, born and raised, and not a shithead.

[AQUARIUSatBRC420]

Sorry, and Amen Kelizabeth! I can't keep the posts straight...

[The CO]

Maybe a cap on the number of tickets that can be bought on one card (unless that's the case already, I can't remember I always buy at walk-in outlets)?

Already exists. 4 tickets per card. (I posted some numbers showing that "the great scalper conglomerate" needs 8334 individual cards to control 2/3rds of the market.)

[Ace of Kittens]

Strangely enough, I was just talking about the idea of "locking it down early" with someone. Can someone point me to a link that says gates now close on Thursday? I thought that Will Call closes on Saturday afternoon, at least according to http://www.burningman.com/preparation/event_survival/participant_responsibilities.html#gate

Furthermore, from this year's FAQ:
Q. Are the gates to the event open 24 hours?
A. Yes. However, the gates will be closed to incoming traffic after 6 p.m. on Saturday of the event, prior to the burning of the Man.

I'm genuinely curious, because In 2005, my SO was in school and couldn't get there til Friday afternoon. He was only there for less than 48 hours, but it was still totally worth it and having someone fresh to help with teardown was so great. But I have plenty of stories about your typical "weekend warrior" who really contributes nothing, so... maybe this is a topic for another time.

[Eric]

Strangely enough, I was just talking about the idea of "locking it down early" with someone. Can someone point me to a link that says gates now close on Thursday? I thought that Will Call closes on Saturday afternoon, at least according to http://www.burningman.com/preparation/event_survival/participant_responsibilities.html#gate

Furthermore, from this year's FAQ:
Q. Are the gates to the event open 24 hours?
A. Yes. However, the gates will be closed to incoming traffic after 6 p.m. on Saturday of the event, prior to the burning of the Man.

From what I've heard they're open as long as the event is, but you must have a ticket (or a ticket & in/out band if you've left the event & are returning). They may close Gate during the Burn for safety & security reasons, but that's pure speculation on my part.

[capjbadger]

Strangely enough, I was just talking about the idea of "locking it down early" with someone. Can someone point me to a link that says gates now close on Thursday? I thought that Will Call closes on Saturday afternoon, at least according to http://www.burningman.com/preparation/event_survival/participant_responsibilities.html#gate

Furthermore, from this year's FAQ:
Q. Are the gates to the event open 24 hours?
A. Yes. However, the gates will be closed to incoming traffic after 6 p.m. on Saturday of the event, prior to the burning of the Man.

From what I've heard they're open as long as the event is, but you must have a ticket (or a ticket & in/out band if you've left the event & are returning). They may close Gate during the Burn for safety & security reasons, but that's pure speculation on my part.

Word from gate:

Gate is open for business through Labor Day...the same credentials required to pass through gate on opening day will be required to pass through gate until after the event has finished.
Paul/Pole


Gate Operations Manager

-Badger

[Trihnicus]

Quite simple really.... it's not like I'd ever been to a burn or had any notion that I'd need to save for a ticket most of a year ago. When I decided to go I saved up the money went online and poof tickets are all gone. There was no "you could have just bought it a few weeks prior" as that was never really in the cards to begin with. My impression from those that had told me about it was that this was an inclusive event centered around participation and what not.... perhaps the people who cared to think about it realized that it would have some exclusivity this year but why would that have occurred to the random Joe?

[capjbadger]

Quite simple really.... it's not like I'd ever been to a burn or had any notion that I'd need to save for a ticket most of a year ago. When I decided to go I saved up the money went online and poof tickets are all gone. There was no "you could have just bought it a few weeks prior" as that was never really in the cards to begin with. My impression from those that had told me about it was that this was an inclusive event centered around participation and what not.... perhaps the people who cared to think about it realized that it would have some exclusivity this year but why would that have occurred to the random Joe?

You are a tad mistaken. While the event is heavy on the whole participation thing, it is far more on the self-reliance bit.

-Badger

[Trihnicus]

I'd defy you to point out where I suggested otherwise.

[DustHand]

I'd defy you to point out where I suggested otherwise.

There were warnings weeks, if not months, in advance that the event may very well sell out.

[trilobyte]

That and, very early on in the first timer's guide section of the site it's recommended that you sign up for the Jack Rabbit Speaks newsletter (which is also linked there, as well as on the home page), which would have provided you with regular updates on tickets and other important issues as you prepared for the journey. The tickets page itself was also a helpful resource, letting you know when tickets went on sale, and then later letting you know what tiers were still left and warning when supplies were running low. Some dismissed it as hype, others never read it, but the info certainly wasn't kept secret.

[Igneouss]

What Trilobite said.

I certainly saw the warnings and bought my ticket as soon as I could.

It's a shame that some good people have been left out. While I don't blame anyone in particular it is clear that the Org is not to blame. They did their part.

[Ace of Kittens]

Thanks for the clarified info re: Gate being open, Eric & CapjBadger! That's what I had thought. I mean, if someone can only get away for a day or two and wants to come at the end, it wouldn't be very inclusive to turn them away.

I think there are always going to be "weekend warriors" or even "weekday warriors," who basically only show up to party & shutting the gate will never keep them away. I knew a girl who came in 2009 on Thursday night in an RV. On Saturday morning, she deemed that it was just "too dirty" and left before the burn because she wanted a shower. Meanwhile, I have another friend who has always shown up Friday night and left Sunday. He traditionally brings all the fixings for a Taco bar and makes fresh fruit margaritas. Then he works his ass off helping with teardown. So, I've just gone off on a total tangent and this is totally not what this thread was even about. Sorry!

As to: what were people thinking? I imagine that a lot of people simply procrastinated buying the ticket as usual, not even remotely aware that BMan was in danger of selling out, because the communications from BMorg never reached them. As far as JRS is concerned, it's not a good communications vehicle - it is way too long and contains way too much information. Small, bite-sized chunks & pretty pictures is all the information that most people can handle at a time. I learned this the hard way after many years of producing numerous client / corporate newsletters professionally. Unfortunately, most people don't read, period. I have a friend who works at Border's and people are still coming into their store and being shocked that it's closing. The giant "store closing" signs apparently didn't give it away. So, there you go.

Also, even recently, the FAQ on the BMan main site (http://www.burningman.com/whatisburningman/about_burningman/faq_what_is.html) said this:

Q. Does the event sell out, or have a limit in size?
A. We do not expect the event to sell out. However, ticket sales are expected to be brisk and limits may be imposed at some point. Because tickets rise in price throughout the year, we encourage you to purchase your tickets early. Up to date information is available on the Jack Rabbit Speaks newsletter. UPDATE: tickets for Burning Man 2011 are now sold out.

Thus, I can imagine that a newcomer to the site / the event (someone who doesn't live & breathe Burning Man "during the other 51 weeks") might have been pretty confident that they were fine waiting to buy their tickets. True story: someone I know JUST discovered that tickets are sold out. Today. He found this out TODAY. As I said, most people don't read.

I have tried to be open-minded and less judgmental, because as I said in another thread, my sister camp has been caught with their pants down and still needs something like 5 or 6 tickets.

[DustHand]

Part of my job here in the default world is to disseminate information regarding procedures, rules, federal regulations etc. Thankfully not ALL of what I do, but a part of it.

Frequently, these details are sent out to the folks that need to follow them. Very frequently, people don't read them and they fail to follow the procedures. When they complain they "didn't know" I produce the email they were sent, and the "read" receipt if necessary.

There is a certain level of personal responsibility we all have in order to move through life. Certain things are expected of a person. Short of beaming the necessary info directly into someone brain, I think the bmorg did more than enough to spread the word.

I agree that everyone cannot devote oodles of time to research. I don't. I read the JRS, I check out the website from time to time. I only got into the eplaya recently as I had this desire to become more of a participant. I don't live this the other 51 weeks...my life and commitments won't allow it.

I don't, however, feel any sympathy for someone who feels it snuck up on them, etc.

And regarding the person who found out TODAY tix were sold out...that's probably for the best. The playa would have eaten him alive.