Christians don't have to hate the theme! It's universal!

[This Woman]

Mabu,

Christian fundys have attended Burning Man. In 1996, the theme was Hell (or somesuch), and a couple guys went and wrote about it in Charisma magazine.

http://associate.com/groups/end-times_n ... 9read.html

Its been years since I've read it (and will remedy that shortly), but I recall they were slightly confused by how nice everyone was. That sort of lovely Christian sentiment about so sad such nice folk will be burning in hell forever.

Here are a couple other links. How annoying that groups of people will be praying for our souls. I'll show them by praying for their enlightenment to my god, The Flying Spaghetti Monster (I love his noodly goodness).

http://www.worthynews.com/1713-the-burning-man

http://poweredbychrist.homestead.com/BurningMan.html

[mabu]

Mabu,

Christian fundys have attended Burning Man. In 1996, the theme was Hell (or somesuch), and a couple guys went and wrote about it in Charisma magazine.

http://associate.com/groups/end-times_n ... 9read.html

Wow. Great read. It's quite significant that the writer makes reference to the fact that so many of these "godless" people were former Christians - and yet he doesn't wonder if perhaps they know something he has yet to realize? ...probably making this year's theme even more appropriate, as it seems natural to evolve beyond silly dogma and superstition.

What I notice most about the devout; what seems to be their most distinguishing characteristic, isn't the intensity or nature of their beliefs, but the degree to which they are unwilling to entertain any contrary perspective. During Mardi Gras, the fundies were handing out all sorts of pamphlets designed to scare people into converting, but most of them refused to touch any other flyer those of us were handing out. I have never seen anyone so closed-minded as a religious fundamentalist. I guess that's the only way they can be so confident in their beliefs, if they spend huge amounts of energy denying even the existence of any counter argument.

[Igneouss]

The sooner we identify life on another planet the sooner much theology will be thrown into doubt. Or maybe they forgot extraterrestrial life in those various sacred texts...

[This Woman]

I agree, Madu, and that combined with their insistance that any means that leads to their preferred end is allowable (like blowing up clinics), makes reason loving people rightfully wary.

Igneouss, I had never thought of that! I hope it happens in my lifetime, as it will be interesting to watch it unfold (uh, and because they will have found life on another planet!!, lol). Sadly, I bet they'll just manufacturer an excuse like they did with the dinosaurs, the bones of which were planted by the devil to confuse us.

[mabu]

I think this sums it up nicely...

[jkisha]

I think this sums it up nicely...

wow, what a great sign. Now that I see the link is to Richard Dawkins I see why.

JK

[mabu]

I think this sums it up nicely...

wow, what a great sign. Now that I see the link is to Richard Dawkins I see why.

JK

It should be noted that's not an actual sign that was put on a public bus. The actual signs had the slogan "There's probably no God - Now stop worrying and enjoy your life" but many of us felt this mock version represents a more poignant slogan. Maybe it will actually be used, but some might think it's too controversial?

[oneeyeddick]

Poignant ? Controversial ? Meh.......

[theCryptofishist]

It should be noted that's not an actual sign that was put on a public bus. The actual signs had the slogan "There's probably no God - Now stop worrying and enjoy your life" but many of us felt this mock version represents a more poignant slogan. Maybe it will actually be used, but some might think it's too controversial?

There was more than one slogan and more than one city's bus had the boards. I don't remember all of either.

(Psst. It's considered bad form to keep quoting a picture like that, as it apparently means that more bandwidth is sucked from the host site. We don't want to be bad parasites, do we?)

[mabu]

(Psst. It's considered bad form to keep quoting a picture like that, as it apparently means that more bandwidth is sucked from the host site. We don't want to be bad parasites, do we?)

Browsers cache images. You can quote the same image a hundred times and it doesn't increase the bandwidth drain.

[sktELEMENT]

just livening up my post...I am proud of it...this is message 100 and it is almost a year old! Woot for me!


Wow the burn is really close, and I am really broke...ike...gots to make it work! :x

[BlackRockCowboy]

Oh My God! Here we go again...a big debate on something that means NOTHING.

1st (as i said in other posts...search carrie pejean) I am a born again christian.

2nd I (personally) do not believe in Evolution.

That being said let me put my two cents in....because i like to hear myself type!

I have waited 5 years to go to BM. I finally am able to go and the theme is "Evolution." Man, bummer, I can't go because I do not believe in it? FUCK THAT SHIT!! I am going. Do I care what the theme is? Hell no!!

I don't believe in shirtcocking or public sex or that someone could worship bacon like they do on this sight or in BM. Does that mean I can't go? Hell No!!

I actually chuckled when I saw the theme. BM in general is not what the average christian would participate in, let alone a theme of evolution. And I am going to this place in August.

Everyone and everything is entitled to their beliefs - THIS IS AMERICA PEOPLE.

If you don't like the theme - Umm Don't go - HELLO!
If you do not want to speak English - Umm go Home - HELLO!
If you can't be monogamous - Umm don't commit - HELLO!
If you don't have a job - Umm Don't spend money - HELLO!
If you are allergic to shellfish - Umm Don't eat the shrimp - HELLO!


I guess my point is:

If you poor little bitty brain is offended by a theme in the middle of the Nevada Desert for one week out of the whole year - Umm Don't go - HELLO!

By the way: When did Burning Man have to be politically correct and conform to the idea that they are not allowed to step on anyone's toes? Isn't that what makes BM - the idea that it is an escape, a celebration of all things eccentric, that it welcomes all walks of life - Hippies, Druggies, Campers, Survivalists, Nudists, Gays, Straights, Whatevers, Artists, Professionals, Unemployeds, Blacks, Whites, Foriegners, Bears, Twinks, Uptights, Fatties, Anorexics, Men, Women, Others, Dicks, Assholes, Bitches, Sweeties, Shys, Exoverts, Exhibitionists, Tops, Bottoms, Virgins, Sluts, Scientists, Chemists, Dealers, Users, Givers, Takers, Rangers, Diviates, Cons, Escapees, Dominatrixes, Freaks, Christians, Jews, Witches, Warlocks, Satanists as well as those that believe in Santa and the Tooth Fairy...

Okay, now that made my brain hurt, I will shut up now....

Well except for one last thought that will keep the thread going, I am sure:

If BM has to be Politically Correct and say whatever it takes to make whichever interest group they are speaking to happy, wouldn't we have to change the name to............













The Obama Man???? hehehehe

[ygmir]

BRC:
I liked your post above.........well said.............

[BlackRockCowboy]

The Obama part right? LOL

[ygmir]

the whole thing...........

you could substitute, IMHO, obama for "any politician blood sucker"........

(excuse my cynicism)

[oneeyeddick]

I liked the part about the Dicks being welcome......

You are at least one step above Danna Matrix, BlackRockCowboy.

You are merely two steps away from being anathamatized.

I commend you for your bravery here.

[mabu]

Oh My God! Here we go again...a big debate on something that means NOTHING.

1st (as i said in other posts...search carrie pejean) I am a born again christian.

2nd I (personally) do not believe in Evolution.

That being said let me put my two cents in....because i like to hear myself type!

I have waited 5 years to go to BM. I finally am able to go and the theme is "Evolution." Man, bummer, I can't go because I do not believe in it? FUCK THAT SHIT!! I am going. Do I care what the theme is? Hell no!!

This doesn't surprise me. Christianity is all about picking-and-choosing what you want to believe based on your personal interests, while lecturing everybody else about the exact way the universe works. You should set up a camp where you evangelize to other people. It would make a poignant display and fit right in with the theme.

In fact, if you want to work out some kind of cool display, do your born-again thing. I'll set up to your right with a few rock pillars and goat entrails at my feet and talk about Zeus and how thunder and lightning is god being angry at us for not sacrificing enough virgins, and someone can set up to your left demonstrating science and reason and how it actually helps humanity instead of scaring people into submission with superstitious mumbo jumbo. We could even have a guy dressed up like Galileo who, when he gets near your display becomes imprisoned until he admits the "truth" that the earth is the center of the universe. That would be pretty cool.

[BlackRockCowboy]

"This doesn't surprise me. Christianity is all about picking-and-choosing what you want to believe based on your personal interests, while lecturing everybody else about the exact way the universe works. "

Interesting how those "non-christians" do the same thing except in reverse. But christians are wrong and you are right....

Get real - you have your beliefs, christians have theirs. If we were all identical then we would just be a world of clones - BORING!

The only reason this post is interesting is because we all have different thoughts and minds. Read the part of the post that talks about freedom and nonconforming.

You may not agree with the War but by God we have soldiers over there fighting for your freedom to disagree with the War.

As an example:

Your lumping of all christians into your statement above is no different then christians lumping all gays into "heathens." Except when you do it, it is allowed and when they do it, it is wrong......something to think about.

If you're gay and hate christians, then you are no different than the christians that hate gays. I think my mama said to wrongs don't make a right.

UNTIL - people on both sides start looking at the person and not the "title" of Christian or Gay, we will not make any head way. If the christians would take the time to get to know the gays, they would realize that they are not all bad. If the gays would take the time to get to know the christians then they would realize that they are not all bad.

Too many times when someone disagrees with us, we dismiss the argument by thinking that their argument is just ignorant. Take the time to understand the other side of the argument, see where they are coming from and more than likely you will find that you understand and respect their opinion, you just don't agree with them.

[mabu]

"This doesn't surprise me. Christianity is all about picking-and-choosing what you want to believe based on your personal interests, while lecturing everybody else about the exact way the universe works. "

Interesting how those "non-christians" do the same thing except in reverse. But christians are wrong and you are right....

First and foremost, I'm not unconvinced you're anything more than a troll. But I am nonetheless amused. An evangelical, creationist, Obama-hating, neocon propganda-spitting, born-again christian divorcee who is bisexual and looking forward to shirt-cocking at Burning Man? That's quite a notion. It's even better than Gene Simmons attending a N.O.W. conference or Andrew Dice Clay opening for Melissa Etheridge. Sure I'll take the bait...

I can't speak for anybody but myself. I used to be a Christian, in fact I went through multiple denominations until I realized it was all one big fallacy. I will suggest that in my world, which appears to be the same world we all live in, which is governed by logic and reason, there are ways to test what is "right" and "wrong" in most circumstances, especially when it comes to dogmatic claims. For example, your suggestion that evolution is not true is clearly false. That's not a matter of opinion. It's a fact. If you choose to deny it, that's your personal opinion, but if you go around suggesting you have an alternate "truth" that is just as probable, well, I feel compelled to suggest you're delusional. Nothing personal. Just a clinical diagnosis.

Get real - you have your beliefs, christians have theirs. If we were all identical then we would just be a world of clones - BORING!

Not all "beliefs" are equal.

Yes, both believers and non-believers make claims. There's nothing wrong with making claims. But if you make a claim that intersects with reality (i.e. snakes can talk, the earth is 6000 years old, the biblegod cares about humanity) then we can test that claim according to established standards and determine the degree to which such a claim may be true. Not all claims carry the same weight, which is why people like yourself have to hide behind "faith". That's fine by me, as long as you don't try to tell me your unproven, delusional view of how the world works pertains to me, and yet when asked to justify those claims, you dance around and claim you're being persecuted, or suggest that your magical sky fairy that has spawned 30,000 different clubs of people who spend most of their timing spewing intolerance and collecting money to buy real estate, deserves just as much respect and consideration as more tangible, provable ideals. I will respectfully disagree. You're employing a false equivalence fallacy. Your fantasy theories are not on the same level as science and cannot withstand the same degree of objective scrutiny so do not suggest they deserve equal consideration or that you're being discriminated against as a result.

The only reason this post is interesting is because we all have different thoughts and minds. Read the part of the post that talks about freedom and nonconforming.

Who is restricting your freedom?

This is the problem with narrow-minded idealists such as yourself. Your idea of freedom is one-way. You should be able to express your opinion, but if anyone disagrees with you, then somehow they're taking away your freedom?

You may not agree with the War but by God we have soldiers over there fighting for your freedom to disagree with the War.

Let me ask you a question: How many 9/11 hijackers were Iraqi? How many were Saudi? Which country did we invade?

Who is fighting for my freedom? When's the last time you saw an Iraqi tank roll down an American street? When was America attacked by Iraq? What "freedom" are we defending by building the world's largest embassy smack in the middle of a country we illegally invaded?

Seriously, you need to stop listening to right wing idiots.

Your lumping of all christians into your statement above is no different then christians lumping all gays into "heathens." Except when you do it, it is allowed and when they do it, it is wrong......something to think about.

Christians by definition, lump themselves together based on acceptance of a particular doctrine. Although every time one of them acts like a hypocrite, the others go, "Oh well, he wasn't a true(tm) Christian" but still, I didn't create the generalization. Christians did. You're no different. Whenever another christian does something you don't like, well, they're not real christians or you're not like that. Whatever. It's not relevant. You still associate with this group and you certainly emulate the exact characteristics I described: you pick and choose which doctrine you wish to believe in, and then call yourself a member of the club, but then when criticized, you try to separate yourself from the club you just claimed you were a member of. .

UNTIL - people on both sides start looking at the person and not the "title" of Christian or Gay, we will not make any head way.

Why associate yourself with a group that has one of the most bloody, immoral histories in the history of human civilization? And then claim that you want to be judged solely as an individual. Normally, you might have a point, but the club you belong to claims to corner the market on what is and isn't moral behavior. So you can't have it both ways. Well I guess you can if you really want, but it doesn't seem to me to make a whole lot of sense.

[mabu]

Too many times when someone disagrees with us, we dismiss the argument by thinking that their argument is just ignorant. Take the time to understand the other side of the argument, see where they are coming from and more than likely you will find that you understand and respect their opinion, you just don't agree with them.

Ahh, yes, the ol', "You don't understand. That's why you disagree with me." response.

I am not obligated to "respect" your world view any more than I'm obligated to respect the personal beliefs of a pedophile or a serial killer or a pope. Anything you accept by choice is something you have to accept personal responsibility for and if you publicly promote your philosophy, don't be surprised if you find someone asking you to defend or explain it, but don't go around telling people they have to unconditionally respect it. That's not appropriate IMO.

Since you call yourself a "christian" you by definition accept a doctrine which dictates that "Jesus christ is savior" which dictates that if one doesn't accept jesus as their personal savior, they are doomed to be tortured for all of eternity by your "loving god". I find this construct offensive. I have greater respect for humanity in general than to buy into an idea that from the moment I was born, I was "cursed" because some woman ate the wrong fruit off a tree six thousand years ago, and now I will burn in hell unless I pander to your religious dogma. I am not and will not unconditionally "respect" such a point of view, and I hope others who have a modicum of self respect wouldn't either.

So, in summary: I respect you as a person. But I reserve the right and freedom to not respect your beliefs, especially when I am prepared to effectively argue that the doctrine to which you subscribe is unambiguously responsible for unparalleled human suffering. If you can't separate your own sense of self, from your chosen personal philosophy, that's your problem, not mine. Otherwise, have a great day!

[BlackRockCowboy]

WOW!!

On evolution: If it were true, then monkeys would still be evolving into humans. Prove to me that they are, then I might give your theory some thought.

On Christianity: You can say what you want but I am Christian, I may not obey everything, but I am a Christian. Saying that I can not be a Christian because I am bi, divorced, different is ridiculous. Are you American? You may say yes, but you don't support our troops, does that make you not American? Of course not, you are still American - you just choose to believe differently then most Americans.

On respect: You make no sense in your argument. You say you respect me as a person, but not my beliefs. That my friend is the same thing. You either respect me or you don't. If you go through life dismissing everyone that does not believe the way you do, I would assume you are a very lonely person.

My point is. I do not know you. I do not have the same views of you. I will never think the way you think - ever. But in the end, you are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.

I really do wish you the best, I am getting quite a chuckle out of your thought process. Let me paraphrase what you are saying - "Christians pick and choose their beliefs, so do I, but I am right and they are wrong."

My ex wife was like that. If I said Black she would say White, just because I said Black. Then after hours of arguing about it, she would say Black, however it is not the same Black as I said, it is different because she said it not me.

So with that, I am politely bowing out of this discussion, because it is bringing back memories of my 7 years of tribulation I have already gone through.

See you on the Playa,

Cowboy

[AntiM]

On evolution: If it were true, then monkeys would still be evolving into humans.

Um, that;s not the way evolution works. Primates, which include humans, had a common ancestor at one point. That ancestor was neither human nor monkey. If you are going to argue against evolution, at least get the science correct.

[mabu]

WOW!!

On evolution: If it were true, then monkeys would still be evolving into humans. Prove to me that they are, then I might give your theory some thought.

As someone has already said, humans did not evolve from monkeys. That's another lie that evangelical hucksters tell their gullible followers. (another one is that there is evidence that Jesus of Nazareth historically existed.) Both monkeys and humans evolved from an earlier primate. And creationists love to claim this was "by chance" when it was by a very specific, observable process involving mutation and natural selection.

For more information on this, see:

* The fact of evolution - a short outline of key scientific findings that prove evolutionary theory is legitimate.

* Judgment Day - Intelligent Design on Trial - an excellent PBS documentary covering the famous "Dover Trial" where the evolution-creation debate was argued in a court of law.

* TalkOrigins - The web's largest repository of information regarding the creation-evolution debate.

On Christianity: You can say what you want but I am Christian, I may not obey everything, but I am a Christian. Saying that I can not be a Christian because I am bi, divorced, different is ridiculous. Are you American? You may say yes, but you don't support our troops, does that make you not American? Of course not, you are still American - you just choose to believe differently then most Americans.

That's the beauty of most religion and specifically Christianity: the arbitrary self-righteousness that defies any meaningful scrutiny. I applaud your consistency.

By the way, I reject the insinuation that your idea of "supporting the troops" is the only option. My idea of "supporting the troops" is pulling their asses out of a foreign dirt-hole they have no business being in in the first place. My idea keeps them alive, less maimed and around to raise their children.

On respect: You make no sense in your argument. You say you respect me as a person, but not my beliefs. That my friend is the same thing.

I understand why you think that. Because you've been indoctrinated into the christian/theological mindset that dictates your own sense of self/worth is heavily dependent upon the outdated, bronze-age mythology you've been taught and coerced to accept as being real. And for that, you have my sympathy, but I'm here to tell you, you don't have to be imprisoned by such fragile ideals if you don't want. You just haven't figured that out yet.

You either respect me or you don't. If you go through life dismissing everyone that does not believe the way you do, I would assume you are a very lonely person.

Like I said, I differentiate between respect for the person and respect for their life choices. If you decide to join the KKK or the Nazi Party or the Taliban or Hamas, PLO or the IDF, I don't have to unconditionally respect such decisions. You want to argue there is no difference between a person and a person's life choices or which group(s) they identify with? I disagree.

By the way, I get along with a wide variety of people, including evangelicals. We agree to disagree on some fundamental issues but most of them are mature enough to note the distinction that you have yet to appreciate. I hope maybe in the future you will be the one who "understands" and "becomes more understanding of where I'm coming from."

My point is. I do not know you. I do not have the same views of you. I will never think the way you think - ever. But in the end, you are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.

As are you. And by your own admission and loyalty to the christian doctrine, you've basically made it clear in lieu of me accepting your doctrine, you believe I will burn forever in eternal torment while you sit up in heaven with Jesus sipping a latte. That is the earmark of christianity, not being bi or divorced. And you identify yourself with that. This isn't as innocuous as you might think. It isn't a "live and let live" attitude. It's a "live and let die" attitude, or actually if you look at the last 1700 years of history a "live and destroy anyone who disagrees with me" attitude, all the while you talk of love and tolerance -- as long as it doesn't encroach upon your personal mythology. Meanwhile you get on your knees and pray to a god whom you believe says lovable things like:

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the Lord, shall be put to death. - Leviticus 24:16

I am not advocating putting you, the believer to death, but you publicly acknowledge the sanctity of scripture, which makes it clear in no uncertain terms that your god is perfectly cool with murdering non-believers, treating women as property, beating slaves and stoning people for working on Sunday. I know you can weasel your way out of accepting whatever unpleasant scripture doesn't serve your purposes, but you undermine your own credibility by continuing to suggest it's all the "word of gawd."

You will excuse me if I express my dissatisfaction at such philosophies since you brought it up in public and solicited comment?

So with that, I am politely bowing out of this discussion...

What a surprise? But if you change your mind, I'll be happy to discuss and debate any issues you want to raise.

See you on the playa!

[ygmir]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-5M4hqSZuM&feature=related[/youtube]

[BlackRockCowboy]

http://www.overcomeproblems.com/believe ... lution.htm

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9694.0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZFG5PKw504

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=th7wr9KMu-I&NR=1

http://www.geocities.com/skicrazer/Evolution.htm




Okay, I just couldn't resist.....LOL

My dear MABU:

You are blind.

You are so caught up on the fact that I am a Christian and your hatred of such that you refuse to even agree with me on any level.

What I am saying is....let me slow down for you so you might get it this time....

Y o u r a r g u m e n t s and b e l i e f s are no more VALID t h a n any C h r i s t i a n's t h a t you so s t r o n g l y despise. I am not perfect and niether are you. You think you can disprove me and I think I can disprove you. You think evolution is real and I don't. I think God is real and you don't.

You are so caught up in the fact that I am a Christian and therefore I must act and believe like all the other Christians in the world that have so harmed you and hurt you that you can't see that I RESPECT YOUR OPINION TO F_ING DISAGREE WITH ME. Go for it, argue away, site all kinds of mumbo jumbo that you think is real....it doesn't matter. We do not have the same belief system. It's okay, no worries. I am not bashing you or trying to convert you. I do not wish you harm.

I think the only thing you have done wrong is stereotype me. But in the end, I will not lose any sleep over you.

I think it would be fun to meet on the playa and have a drink. I can't say that I would enjoy a debate as I plan to go and party and not get caught up in heavy discussions that in the end we will walk away still disagreeing with each other. But I definitely would pour you a shot of Tuaca and toast the fact that we are total 100% on oppisite sides everything we discuss.

Later

[DoriumLux]

WOW!!

On evolution: If it were true, then monkeys would still be evolving into humans. Prove to me that they are, then I might give your theory some thought.

Why spend a hot, grueling dusty weekend at Burning Man when you can enjoy the air conditioned comforts of the Cincinnati Creationist museum? Jesus road dinosaurs and now you can too! Check it out.



And you won't believe what they sell in the gift shop!

[mabu]

You are so caught up on the fact that I am a Christian and your hatred of such that you refuse to even agree with me on any level.

You may believe your opinion is as valid as mine, but I'm willing to put mine to the test. All you can do in response is employ misdirection by inappropriately accusing me of being prejudiced and hateful.

And yet you suggest everyone should unconditionally respect your beliefs?

[mabu]

In summation...

[ygmir]

You are so caught up on the fact that I am a Christian and your hatred of such that you refuse to even agree with me on any level.

You may believe your opinion is as valid as mine, but I'm willing to put mine to the test. All you can do in response is employ misdirection by inappropriately accusing me of being prejudiced and hateful.

And yet you suggest everyone should unconditionally respect your beliefs?

Mabu:
you may be confusing "beliefs" with "facts". they can be different.

his opinion, or "belief" is just that, and, as such, just as valid, for him.

You are stating facts (some possibly moot), but, again, they are your "beliefs", in that, you're taking, or believing, things you read, hear, or are told.

Belief and faith, quite often for the participant, do not require "proof".........

If he was stating (maybe I missed it) categorically, that what he says is true, and, applicable to all, then, I'd say you can call "bullshit", but, how can you say what he believe, for him, is wrong?
Beliefs are personal. you can share them, but, no one else has to go along.

It does seem you have some bear some animus towards Xtianity in general.....and, BRC in particular...........

discussion can be fun, and, heated, to be sure.

I'm just sayin, maybe, more accurate language would help with clarity.........

[mabu]

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9694.0

My dear MABU:

You are blind.

Dude... did you even read that shit you referenced? Or did you just google "evolution is false" and cut-and-paste the results... let's look at the first thing I clicked that you cited as "evidence":

1. WHY IS THE THEORY OF EVOLUTION NOT
SCIENTIFICALLY VALID?

The theory of evolution maintains that life on Earth came about as the result of chance and emerged by itself from natural conditions.

Yea, life came about "by chance?" I challenge you to find one evolutionary biologist that would say that, or that treats abiogenesis and evolution as the same thing.

I know. I know. I shouldn't even be dueling with an unarmed man. I just get frustrated when I'm confronted with such profound ignorance. Ok, I'm not taking any more troll bait. If I respond, I'll just respond with an appropriate graphic and not try to engage someone who obviously knows very little about a subject upon which they claim to believe is "true."