Christians don't have to hate the theme! It's universal!

[sktELEMENT]

Except for the fact that Science is fact, and thats a fact...ok sorry, but seriously Evolution is Scientifically proven to be true, it's not even theory anymore.

Christians can believe it too! The Old Testament is all metaphorical, meant to be taken seriously, but not literally. Like it tells you to kill babies of the sinful bastards, rip out someones eye if they do it to you, marry your lovers brother if your lover dies. It tells fairy tales (though good morals) about parting the red sea and burning bushes that talk to you, living in a whale for many weeks, and having two pairs of all animals on an ark that saves all species (but the lions don't eat the caribou). So you see it's ok to not entrust in the story of the Garden of Eden. It's a STORY about morality and human nature!

The New testament is the true basis for Christianity. Just use that if you want to do the whole christian thing, all about JC! Scientifically proven to have really happened (Jesus Living)! How bout that?

No, this is a fine theme, and hopefully everyone can embrace it in their own way. [b]When Burning Man selected Heaven and Hell, I did not bitch[/b], and im NOT christian...anymore, but I respect yall' even if it sounds like I don't. Just expressing how I interpreted the religion.

[MikeVDS]

Are you trolling? Fun!

but seriously Evolution is Scientifically proven to be true, it's not even theory anymore.

This is incorrect. First off even scientific "laws" can be proven incorrect, just like Einstein did to Newtons Laws. Evolution is not even a law, it is a theory, but if you know science almost everything is theory, and most of them have mounds of evidence backing them. We have very few things that we know enough about to call a law of the universe. The common use of the word "theory" is educated guess, which in science is "hypothesis". People get that confused, thinking something is just a "theory" in science, so it could easily be wrong. No, in science a theory is backed by piles of scientific research, a hypothesis is a guess.

That being said, I agree with you. I also don't think that there is even a percent of Burners who are Young Earth Creationists. I doubt this troll attempt will work.

[jkisha]

Are you trying to tell me that the earth is older than 6,000 years and that dinasours did not roam the earth with humans? I don't believe it--I saw a program on the Creatiionist Museum, so I know all about that stuff. They bring the truth of the Bible to life.


JK

[ygmir]

well,
can you prove to me that water didn't run uphill a million years ago?
is it possible, with time, even the laws of physics, as we understand them, can change?
Can there be "ages" where different laws and rules of nature apply?

I'm not saying any of the above are fact, but, they are possible.
As such, blanket statements of theory as fact seem to lose some integrity.......

It sure seemed like the earth was flat at one time..........Kind of the same time people thought politicians were there to work for us.......?
Different 'ages'? perhaps.........

[BAS]

Well, I did read the speculation that the laws of physics and such might actually change over time, and may not be in their final form! (Just something to think about some night when you are having trouble falling asleep. )

[Ugly Dougly]

Why worry about what Christians think?

[jkisha]

well,
can you prove to me that water didn't run uphill a million years ago?

Yes. Well, I can't, but there are geologists that can based on being able to tell that there was gravity a million years ago from core samples--the poles might have been reversed, but I don't think that would count to say water was running uphill.

is it possible, with time, even the laws of physics, as we understand them, can change?
Can there be "ages" where different laws and rules of nature apply?

No. You have been watching to many Startreck Episodes.

I'm not saying any of the above are fact, but, they are possible.
As such, blanket statements of theory as fact seem to lose some integrity.......

It sure seemed like the earth was flat at one time..........Kind of the same time people thought politicians were there to work for us.......?
Different 'ages'? perhaps.........

Yes. Different 'ages' in both senses of the word. I still do believe that politicians are there to work for us. But the majority of people are too apathetic or stupid to keep them in line. "If it's not inspected, it's neglected." It is up to 'we the people' to not only elect our officials, but to hold them accountable. Not to just bitch about what the government has devolved into--that is everyone's fault, so you can't just blame the polititions. Again, we deserve the government we get.

As you know, I live in CA. We have 12 propositions on the ballot and another 3 for county and school issues. The voter info guide that has the complete initiative, the attorney general summaries, the position statements pro and con and the rebuttals, is almost 150 pages. There are some porpositions that are no-brainers and choosing yes or no is easy; but there are many that need to be read and studied in order to make a truly intelligent choice. How many people do you think even open the book? They vote from what they hear in the TV Commercials; which are all sponsored by public interest groups.

Like I said, we deserve what we get.

JK

[ygmir]

well,
can you prove to me that water didn't run uphill a million years ago?

Yes. Well, I can't, but there are geologists that can based on being able to tell that there was gravity a million years ago from core samples--the poles might have been reversed, but I don't think that would count to say water was running uphill.

well, I don't think they can. They can prove ,somewhat, where the magnetic poles were, and, how strong, and, they can infer gravity existed in it's present form, but, can't prove which way it pulled things.....up, or down, it would leave the same clues.....

is it possible, with time, even the laws of physics, as we understand them, can change?
Can there be "ages" where different laws and rules of nature apply?

No. You have been watching to many Startreck Episodes.

I do love Star Trek (obvious), but, I disagree. There is basis for the idea that some laws of physics can change, and, that we certainly don't know them all, let alone understand them and their interactions, and therefore, effects on eachother......

I'm not saying any of the above are fact, but, they are possible.
As such, blanket statements of theory as fact seem to lose some integrity.......

It sure seemed like the earth was flat at one time..........Kind of the same time people thought politicians were there to work for us.......?
Different 'ages'? perhaps.........

Yes. Different 'ages' in both senses of the word. I still do believe that politicians are there to work for us. But the majority of people are too apathetic or stupid to keep them in line. "If it's not inspected, it's neglected." It is up to 'we the people' to not only elect our officials, but to hold them accountable. Not to just bitch about what the government has devolved into--that is everyone's fault, so you can't just blame the polititions. Again, we deserve the government we get.

I'm with you there

As you know, I live in CA. We have 12 propositions on the ballot and another 3 for county and school issues. The voter info guide that has the complete initiative, the attorney general summaries, the position statements pro and con and the rebuttals, is almost 150 pages. There are some porpositions that are no-brainers and choosing yes or no is easy; but there are many that need to be read and studied in order to make a truly intelligent choice. How many people do you think even open the book? They vote from what they hear in the TV Commercials; which are all sponsored by public interest groups.

Like I said, we deserve what we get.

I'm in Ca, too.....

JK

[Box Burner]

Well water may have run uphill at one time. And may still do so in another time and place.

Consider the laws of physics to be like an old fashioned quilt with many squares of different colors and patterns sewn into it. Each square represents a different part or application of the laws of physics. Here in our little corner of the universe under the blue square The laws of physics dictate that water runs downhill. But elsewhere, under the paisley square the laws of physics may dictate that water runs up hill. Same laws of physics (the quilt), different application. Truth is we know very little about the universe and physics. In fact we know almost nothing compared to what there is to be known.

[chiefdanfox]

hmmm, we've got some pretty compelling evidence that the laws of physics, as we know them, have been the same since about 300,000 years after the Big Bang. Under pressure water runs uphill, it rises into the atmosphere, etc.

Ask the next person you run into that believes the Earth and universe is only 6,000 years old these few questions:
1. Do they believe that we can accurately calculate the speed of light?
If Yes, continue to 2., If No, run away screaming.
2. Do they believe that there are other galaxies other than our own?
Use same sequence to continue
3. Do they believe we can accurately calculate the distances the galaxies are from our own?
Use same sequence to continue
4. Have they ever seen the Andromeda Galaxy?
If yes -->5., if no, point out where it is, then go to 5 (find Cassiopeia, the "W" in the sky, look for the smudge to the left, that is the galaxy)
5. Tell them if the universe is only 6,000 y.o., then the light from that galaxy started 2.9 million years before the galaxy was created. How is that possible?

[jkisha]

hmmm, we've got some pretty compelling evidence that the laws of physics, as we know them, have been the same since about 300,000 years after the Big Bang. Under pressure water runs uphill, it rises into the atmosphere, etc.

Ask the next person you run into that believes the Earth and universe is only 6,000 years old these few questions:
1. Do they believe that we can accurately calculate the speed of light?
If Yes, continue to 2., If No, run away screaming.
2. Do they believe that there are other galaxies other than our own?
Use same sequence to continue
3. Do they believe we can accurately calculate the distances the galaxies are from our own?
Use same sequence to continue
4. Have they ever seen the Andromeda Galaxy?
If yes -->5., if no, point out where it is, then go to 5 (find Cassiopeia, the "W" in the sky, look for the smudge to the left, that is the galaxy)
5. Tell them if the universe is only 6,000 y.o., then the light from that galaxy started 2.9 million years before the galaxy was created. How is that possible?

#5 would be way to mind boggling for them. but I know it's not true anyway, I saw the dinosaur with the saddle on it in the creation museum!

JK

[ygmir]

hmmm, we've got some pretty compelling evidence that the laws of physics, as we know them, have been the same since about 300,000 years after the Big Bang. Under pressure water runs uphill, it rises into the atmosphere, etc.

Ask the next person you run into that believes the Earth and universe is only 6,000 years old these few questions:
1. Do they believe that we can accurately calculate the speed of light?
If Yes, continue to 2., If No, run away screaming.
2. Do they believe that there are other galaxies other than our own?
Use same sequence to continue
3. Do they believe we can accurately calculate the distances the galaxies are from our own?
Use same sequence to continue
4. Have they ever seen the Andromeda Galaxy?
If yes -->5., if no, point out where it is, then go to 5 (find Cassiopeia, the "W" in the sky, look for the smudge to the left, that is the galaxy)
5. Tell them if the universe is only 6,000 y.o., then the light from that galaxy started 2.9 million years before the galaxy was created. How is that possible?

yes, compelling evidence, but, no proof.......my point stands, IMHO.

I think you know what I meant about water running up hill. I'd say under pressure, vapor or hydraulic, is not in the spirit of my statement, .

I understand what you refer to in your "list of 5" but, it is all based on belief in theory and some suppositions, IE:
that light travels the same speed everywhere in the universe.
that the light we see is really another galaxy........It's not like we've seen our own from a distance, so, how to compare?
Sure, I've seen what someone told me is the Andromeda galaxy......
on and on.....

I'm not putting your ideas down, but, am pointing out that holes can be punched in almost any idea......

Really, how do we know the moon isn't green cheese?
Have you touched it? stood there and looked back?
even holding what someone tells you is a lunar rock is just taking their word for it........and, even if you have, and tell me, can/should I believe you?
we take the word of people we don't know, about things we can't touch, and ideas we don't really comprehend, and, at times, call them fact.......

I always refer to UD's sig of the past, about believing only what makes sense to you.
Maybe UD can help me here......

anyway,
just some thoughts......
Take 'em for what you paid, since, I only attended one year of J.C.......

[ygmir]

hmmm, we've got some pretty compelling evidence that the laws of physics, as we know them, have been the same since about 300,000 years after the Big Bang. Under pressure water runs uphill, it rises into the atmosphere, etc.

Ask the next person you run into that believes the Earth and universe is only 6,000 years old these few questions:
1. Do they believe that we can accurately calculate the speed of light?
If Yes, continue to 2., If No, run away screaming.
2. Do they believe that there are other galaxies other than our own?
Use same sequence to continue
3. Do they believe we can accurately calculate the distances the galaxies are from our own?
Use same sequence to continue
4. Have they ever seen the Andromeda Galaxy?
If yes -->5., if no, point out where it is, then go to 5 (find Cassiopeia, the "W" in the sky, look for the smudge to the left, that is the galaxy)
5. Tell them if the universe is only 6,000 y.o., then the light from that galaxy started 2.9 million years before the galaxy was created. How is that possible?

#5 would be way to mind boggling for them. but I know it's not true anyway, I saw the dinosaur with the saddle on it in the creation museum!

JK

and of course, the classic cowboy/dinosaur movie: The Valley of Gwanji...........

and, what about the battle in the classic 20,000 B.C.?......Raquel Welsh (sp?) wouldn't like..........

Journey to the Center of the Earth.....

come on now, you know that's real.......

geeze, have a little faith in the truth and justice in Hollywood.........


grin.........

[gyre]

I don't believe in the theory of gravity.
Yet somehow, that doesn't seem to matter...

[ygmir]

exactly

[theCryptofishist]

[ygmir]

hey,
that lamb looks suspiciously like JK........
you been in Montana again?

hahahahaha

just funnin'......

[theCryptofishist]

Okay, I didn't actually mean that. I don't understand gravity as well as my father, but I do feel fairly certain that the places were it doesn't work aren't different "ages" but different matter states or scales and that this is a very silly conversation to any general relativitist.

[jkisha]

Okay, I didn't actually mean that. I don't understand gravity as well as my father, but I do feel fairly certain that the places were it doesn't work aren't different "ages" but different matter states or scales and that this is a very silly conversation to any general relativitist.

Actually, there are places where gravity doesn't behave the way you might expect--on the atomic level for example; I believe this is where string theory comes into play. And there are even different number systems, where I could prove that 2 + 2 does not equal 4. But they are all explained by math or science--well, they are starting to be able to be explained.


JK

[ygmir]

dang,
discovered by the general relativists again...........

I hate being called silly for philosophical discussion.........and ideological banter..........

Perhaps, we could call in the major theorists and they could bring corporal punishment and private parts, to carry out the sentence...........

[ygmir]

Okay, I didn't actually mean that. I don't understand gravity as well as my father, but I do feel fairly certain that the places were it doesn't work aren't different "ages" but different matter states or scales and that this is a very silly conversation to any general relativitist.

Actually, there are places where gravity doesn't behave the way you might expect--on the atomic level for example; I believe this is where string theory comes into play. And there are even different number systems, where I could prove that 2 + 2 does not equal 4. But they are all explained by math or science--well, they are starting to be able to be explained.


JK

and, just when I thought I could do math on one hand.......dang.......

but, I think my point is, that, nothing's for sure.......so, blanket statements as fact can be argued and well...........

[jkisha]

Okay, I didn't actually mean that. I don't understand gravity as well as my father, but I do feel fairly certain that the places were it doesn't work aren't different "ages" but different matter states or scales and that this is a very silly conversation to any general relativitist.

Actually, there are places where gravity doesn't behave the way you might expect--on the atomic level for example; I believe this is where string theory comes into play. And there are even different number systems, where I could prove that 2 + 2 does not equal 4. But they are all explained by math or science--well, they are starting to be able to be explained.


JK

and, just when I thought I could do math on one hand.......dang.......

but, I think my point is, that, nothing's for sure.......so, blanket statements as fact can be argued and well...........

You mean Chisanbop?

JK

[ygmir]

Okay, I didn't actually mean that. I don't understand gravity as well as my father, but I do feel fairly certain that the places were it doesn't work aren't different "ages" but different matter states or scales and that this is a very silly conversation to any general relativitist.

Actually, there are places where gravity doesn't behave the way you might expect--on the atomic level for example; I believe this is where string theory comes into play. And there are even different number systems, where I could prove that 2 + 2 does not equal 4. But they are all explained by math or science--well, they are starting to be able to be explained.


JK

and, just when I thought I could do math on one hand.......dang.......

but, I think my point is, that, nothing's for sure.......so, blanket statements as fact can be argued and well...........

You mean Chisanbop?

JK

you got me there.......Chisanbop?...........

[gyre]

Fudd's Third Law of Thermodynamics

If you push something hard enough,
it will fall over.

[theCryptofishist]

Just what do you think I meant by "different...scales" if not atomic level?

[BAS]

To a goldfish, the universe is only about 30 seconds old!

[Ugly Dougly]

5. Tell them if the universe is only 6,000 y.o., then the light from that galaxy started 2.9 million years before the galaxy was created. How is that possible?

Of course that depends on them believing in the Big Bang Theory.

Which, I believe can be disproven in like manner.
Astronomical observations indicate that the universe is 13 billion years old and at least 93 billion light years across.
Houston ah we have a problem.

[chiefdanfox]

Which, I believe can be disproven in like manner.
Astronomical observations indicate that the universe is 13 billion years old and at least 93 billion light years across.
Houston ah we have a problem.

Well, the way it works is we can see roughly 14 bn years of light, so we have a diameter of 28 bn "visible". The light left 14 bn years ago and we also moved apart in that time, to the tune of 46 bn, at our current and increasing speed. So while the light is 14 bn y.o., the object is now somewhat over 46 bn. light years away. That is a radius, hence we get to roughly 93 bn light years across for the diameter of the known universe. It is one of those "two trains leave the station" equations, with a couple of big numbers tossed in. The universe could be vastly bigger, we could be in just one bubble, just like we thought our galaxy was the only galaxy for the longest time. Houston still has a problem, but it is from the hurricane.

As far as punching holes in any theory, sure. If I say I am human, and you say prove it, and then do not accept any evidence as proof, then you may think you have punched a hole in my theory of humanhood, but you just are doing sophistry. I know Andromeda is a galaxy, I know we have actually seen supernovae in other galaxies. If you choose not to agree, then perhaps you could show me your evidence that better explains what it is, and we'll put it through some repeatable tests. You just can't say, "No it isn't." That is not an argument. (That whole Monty Python thing just flashed through my head..."No, no, no, this is getting hit on the head!")

[jkisha]

you got me there.......Chisanbop?...........

Years ago there was a commercial on TV about a 'new and phenominal' way to teach your children to do math on their fingers which they sold for some outrageous amount.

Your post reminded me of that. Actually, when I googled it to see how to spell it, I found out that it wasn't really anything new and phenominal, but it was an old Korean way of counting using your fingers as an abacus.

The commercial was comical though and I'm sure they made a ton of money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chisanbop

JK

[Simon of the Playa]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IlHgbOWj4o[/youtube]