Arrests and Crime stats?

[CapSmashy]

Now!! Why in the hell would I/anyone want to ruin good playa time following a cop around..

I know the rules, I make my choice to follow them and the cop can do there own thing..

The tiny part of the BRC pop that have an issue with the police should just get there head on right.. Stop playing the law game.. Get a life

I'm not volunteering for such an activity, I am just passing on advice on how to set it up.

[unjonharley]

Now!! Why in the hell would I/anyone want to ruin good playa time following a cop around..

I know the rules, I make my choice to follow them and the cop can do there own thing..

The tiny part of the BRC pop that have an issue with the police should just get there head on right.. Stop playing the law game.. Get a life

I'm not volunteering for such an activity, I am just passing on advice on how to set it up.

yeah.. Get all the hipppy low life druggies dressed alike.. Save the cops time.

[This Woman]

Sounds like fun. Why wouldn't I want to do something fun and productive too? To turn the tired argument around, if cops have nothing to hide they shouldn't mind a cop watch, right?

[unjonharley]

Sounds like fun. Why wouldn't I want to do something fun and productive too? To turn the tired argument around, if cops have nothing to hide they shouldn't mind a cop watch, right?

You must have fit right into Am.Dream theme.. Waste money to the max..

It cost me plenty to buy tickets build a MV and display a little art.. I'mm not into wasting it on police, courts and jails.. Or screwing around showing some hippy where the cops are..

[gyre]

A secondary more low key camera to cover the primary camera if anything happens, might be a good idea.
And a runner to take tapes/cards out of the area quickly.

Arrangements should be made to make copies and distribute to media outlets or the web rapidly, when needed.
And of course, copies to legal entities.

[sensi63]

[quote="steveboy"][quote="willyloafofphora"]Marinol is no where near as effective at treating acute pain as real marijuana I know from personal experience and from conversation with cancer patients. Also a recent study has proven what every real pot head has known for years. That THC is only one chemical that makes up the therapeutic effects of pot. That CBNs, CBDs, and even flavniods all make serious contributions to the effect of the medicine. This mean that different strains/flavors of weed have different effects and that very little is now understood about how this works. All that is really known is that it does work. Also Marinol is about ten times more expensive per dose than weed bought on the street. However if weed is grown at home for medical use it costs pennies per dose.[/quote]

Anecdotes ain't data, and my anecdotal experience contradicts yours.[/quote]

Actually, Steveboy, there is ample scientific data to support the arguments about different cannabinoids acting differently, as well as pharmacokinetic differences to support smoked or vaporized cannabis over oral forms for some people. I don't care if you buy the whole war on drugs BS about medical mj, but don't pretend you know what you are taking about. If you are really interested you can start here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entre ... rom=pubmed

and here:

http://www.nature.com/clpt/journal/v82/ ... 0200a.html

http://springerlink.com/content/978-0-387-74348-6

I don't care what you believe to be true, except insofar as it increases the suffering of others, which the war on drugs and medical mj in particular seem to do imho. If marinol works for you, great, but there are cheaper and better alternatives in my experince.

[unjonharley]

Some of this states best (bY contest) cuttings are growing in my yard.. eight foot tall and bud ready the end of this month.. They "were" the best for quality.. After seeing what was added to grow it.. I would not touch it with a pole.. NO one should even handle it. Maybe a DEA hasmat team. All the grower around here compare growing notes.. So it's all the same..

I might use it if I were dieing to help ease me out.. But no way for acute day to day pain..

[somekind]

After seeing what was added to grow it.. I would not touch it with a pole.. NO one should even handle it. Maybe a DEA hasmat team. All the grower around here compare growing notes.. So it's all the same..
..

What are you referring to? Bat guano?

[unjonharley]

After seeing what was added to grow it.. I would not touch it with a pole.. NO one should even handle it. Maybe a DEA hasmat team. All the grower around here compare growing notes.. So it's all the same..
..

What are you referring to? Bat guano?

NOOO ,, DUpont to the max..

I grow my food in worms.. Wish I could get some bats to live here..
I have boxes out but no takers..

[gyre]

What was that address?
I think I forgot to write it down.

[gyre]

After seeing what was added to grow it.. I would not touch it with a pole.. NO one should even handle it. Maybe a DEA hasmat team. All the grower around here compare growing notes.. So it's all the same..
..

What are you referring to? Bat guano?

NOOO ,, DUpont to the max..

I grow my food in worms.. Wish I could get some bats to live here..
I have boxes out but no takers..

Maybe you have some animal preying on them?
Maybe better shelter?
I went to a regional with bats everywhere.
No mosquitoes.

[unjonharley]

What was that address?
I think I forgot to write it down.

That my friend is a great fear..

He dose not know it. after this bunch he and his shit is down the road..

He thinks it's hidden.. You can smell it two block away at the mailbox..

[unjonharley]

After seeing what was added to grow it.. I would not touch it with a pole.. NO one should even handle it. Maybe a DEA hasmat team. All the grower around here compare growing notes.. So it's all the same..
..

What are you referring to? Bat guano?

NOOO ,, DUpont to the max..

I grow my food in worms.. Wish I could get some bats to live here..
I have boxes out but no takers..

Maybe you have some animal preying on them?
Maybe better shelter?
I went to a regional with bats everywhere.
No mosquitoes.

I think the neighbors spray to kll all the bugs.. No barn swallows in the boat house this year eather..

[vertigo900]

the cop spotters...

follow em all... each and every one of em... from the LE depot... with sirens and flashy lights... lets just volunteer to tail em all... the whole event... tag em... so their presence is known at all times... biggest party goes on around every LE... ever hear of ahimsa? ... I'll give you a clue... Ghandi.

I'm guessing it would become the largest volunteer department at burningman... it would have to be... hehe...

This way the followers of the LE could just video their behaviour the entire time... I don't think that is illegal is it?

Maybe just take notes on everything...

Give the police a police escort at all times...

I'm such a god damn idealist... someone shoot me... just trying to get outside the box on this one... it aint easy... well at least that's what they always tell me.

porterico

Basic tools would need to include a camera (preferably at least 1 video per group) and reflective safety vests that read "COP WATCH" or something similar. You want to be very obvious as to exactly what you are doing.

The video camera is a very powerful icon and tool and the bad cops tend to fear it. With it, you can record the incidents as they unfold, record info from a witness such as what they saw and their contact information if it needed later for formal witness statements, etc.

The LEOs have an important role and BRC would not exist without them. I am told they perform quite a bit of positive work in BRC, but more me and hundreds if not thousands of other Burning Man attendees the negative interactions tend to out way the positives. Some steps towards a viable solution, I believe, could be some form of video activism combined with a public education campaign blitz with "KNOW YOUR RIGHTS" brochures and laminated card necklaces given out at the gate, along with on-playa workshops, and LEO Evaluation Forms for the LEAL Team inform the LEOs of their previous days observed behaviors. This could all lead to a great reduction in LEO harassment and intimidation. If not, it could lead to a lot more civil lawsuits against LEOs as well as further raise question and help define which laws deserve higher priority in enforcement and which laws are destined for social failure. Both of which, I believe, would be a positive step for our community. Those volunteering to film would need be training to properly document the incidents while acting as non-confrontational, non-interfering observers. However, some messy questions arise when you consider LEOs can potentially attempt to confiscate the footage and use it against fellow burners. So first, some legal and First Amendment rights questions would have to be answered. Also, how would the observers obtain the particular names of the LEOs involved?

The LEOs behavior affects everyone on the playa; those who choose to use, those who don't, and even those who apparently don't care. It's like a little pin prick every time someone is harassed for wandering about or asked for drugs. And a stab to the heart when we learn of a LEO forcing another human to walk a mile home in the dark barefoot across the playa or stand naked along the highway for others to see. Even if they are guilty of breaking a law, no one deserves this kind of treatment. And there are laws against cruel and unusual punishments. There is no worthy excuse or interpretation of law. No laws higher than the basic law of human and civil rights. And these laws are being violated in our town, on our watch, being paid for with our Burning Man Project ticket money.

Whatever your position...pro or against using federally controlled substances on or off the playa. Whatever your regulated or unregulated personal vices; be they sex, drugs, alcohol, caffeine, tv, religion, porn, art, food, sports, exercise, internet, or just spectating...despite the numbers of citations vs. the current BRC population, there is an undeniable growth in the number of LEOs crossing the lines of human and civil rights in our city without consequences. Guilty or not, fellow burners...HUMANS do not deserve this treatment! FORGET ABOUT DRUG LAW AND DARWIN LAW FOR A MOMENT. THIS VIOLATES HUMAN LAW! And this trend is hurting not only the innocent people of BRC, but it's harming the sanctity of our beloved community which we have nurtured and helped blossom over the years and decades. Are we now burnt burners, numb and oblivious to the truly rare beauty of our city and just ready to sit back and spectate from our comfy RVs and MVs and watch our city become diseased with the same ignorance, prejudices, and indifference we have worked so hard to rise above? This is not Black Rock Shity. So, take a shit or get out of the potty! Remember...NO FUCKING SPECTATORS!

Whatever your opinions on vices and law, our city and more importantly our community sanctuary where we come together to recharge our batteries and faith in humanity is threatened and needs us more than ever! Even if someday we stop attending burning man, how can we live with ourselves knowing the innocent people of BRC will continue to be followed, intimidated, and harassed guilty only of attending Burning Man? This was my 9th year and I have witnessed the changes in LEO behavior and tactics. I am out there photographing every day and night. And if there is one thing I know how to do besides appreciate the infinite beauties in this great world, it is OBSERVE. Just because I am an attending "participant" at Burning Man does not mean I am a criminal! Just because someone is possibly guilty of breaking a law does not give another human the authority to violate their human and civil rights! If we all continue to loiter as idle spectators while these injustices in our city continue to grow and we allow the LEOs behaviors to go unchecked without oversight or consequence, we are just as guilty as those who are committing the human and civil rights violations.

Just as the courageous Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. once denounced: "We will have to repent in this generation not merely for the vitriolic words and actions of the bad people, but for the appalling silence of the good people."

Our Silence = Consent

[uncle sticky]

this is why I get so fired up about LEO activities on the playa as well as elsewhere. I know how to spot the undercovers, and have nothing to fear from them regardless, except, except....

The trampling of my fourth amendment rights, as well as the rest of them. I will never give permission for a search. I have nothing to hide, but as a citizen of this country, I should be free from intrusive searches. Just because I am innocent doesn't mean I should let the government come into my home and invade my privacy, or go through my pockets, or sniff my car.

Stand up for your rights, or they will quietly erode into nothing. Don't let them bully others and slink away, glad it wasn't you, or blaming them for being stupid. Sure, if you give probable cause, they should check you out, it's their job, but don't let them lie or connive their way into violations, and let them think it's okay. Hold the police to the standards that the Bill of Rights dictates.

[unjonharley]

Vert, I'm again calling bull shit.

Any of these story of bad cops are hear say.. Find some proof and truth before you start spreading more bull shit..

Very few ticket are handed out on the playa.. Those that are are with drugs in hand.. With some poor shmuck crying about losing the game he wanted to play with the law.. He made an informed choice and it was a bad one..

THere are enough fools out there that a law man need not do anything wrong.. If there is one, Where can I find the written complaint.. How any are there? Compared to how many people at BM.. How many law enforcement are on the playa.. ON you I call Bullshit..

[unjonharley]

this is why I get so fired up about LEO activities on the playa as well as elsewhere. I know how to spot the undercovers, and have nothing to fear from them regardless, except, except....

The trampling of my fourth amendment rights, as well as the rest of them. I will never give permission for a search. I have nothing to hide, but as a citizen of this country, I should be free from intrusive searches. Just because I am innocent doesn't mean I should let the government come into my home and invade my privacy, or go through my pockets, or sniff my car.

Stand up for your rights, or they will quietly erode into nothing. Don't let them bully others and slink away, glad it wasn't you, or blaming them for being stupid. Sure, if you give probable cause, they should check you out, it's their job, but don't let them lie or connive their way into violations, and let them think it's okay. Hold the police to the standards that the Bill of Rights dictates.

Sorry But THe BUsh machine has taken your and our rights and left us to be gutted like a freash road kill deer

[ygmir]

yeah,
congress has and had nothing to do with that............

[hsdavis]

Vert, I'm again calling bull shit.

Any of these story of bad cops are hear say.. Find some proof and truth before you start spreading more bull shit..

Very few ticket are handed out on the playa.. Those that are are with drugs in hand.. With some poor shmuck crying about losing the game he wanted to play with the law.. He made an informed choice and it was a bad one..

THere are enough fools out there that a law man need not do anything wrong.. If there is one, Where can I find the written complaint.. How any are there? Compared to how many people at BM.. How many law enforcement are on the playa.. ON you I call Bullshit..

I agree with you that very few tickets are handed out. This is despite the outrageous behavior of the various law enforcement at this event. There were hundreds of searches, and obviously most turned up nothing. When the dust finally settled, there was a very low number of arrests from what I have read, and a low number of tickets written. Why the hell are there so many police lurking in dark corners waiting pounce on any hint of trouble if there are so few problems at this event. The short answer is profiling the participants as a bunch of hippie drug users. I also think that the LEOs must have as many arrests as possible to justify them being there in the first place. The more tickets and the more arrests mean more police are needed next year. They are clearly desperate for as many arrests as they can legally or illegally muster. Again, their behavior is outrageos and there must be a stop to it.
I am not condoning anything illegal by the paid attendees and I would expect at the very least the same from the police. So far, the police are not doing so well!

[unjonharley]

Are any of these nonproducing searches documented??

Why were these people searched?

What was going on (with searched) just before the search?

Why are some of these search story not true?

If we knew the truth in these cases we could inform the BM public and ajust.. Nothing going to change from hear say tales.. WE need written fact..

[hsdavis]

Nothing we say will matter. There is much too much money for the LEOs to claim for their hard work here. It will be brushed off and the police will be back in full bullet proof vests and more little green ATVs next year. I documented 6 cases with BMorg, but as long as there are people who simply want to bury their heads in the sand and say there is nothing wrong, then nothing will change.
With one on one conversations, the police were all very nice. But put them is group and you have the typical police tough guy authority mentality. They should be embaressed by their behavior, but they are making too much money for the week to think about it.

[unjonharley]

hsdavis,, where did you get this information That "there were hundreds of searches made"


If there were 500 searches what? that would be 1% of the ticket holders.. If there were fewer than 50 arrest/tickets issued. gettng pretty skinny here.. Not enough to make up al the wild tales that go along with it..

[unjonharley]

Nothing we say will matter. There is much too much money for the LEOs to claim for their hard work here. It will be brushed off and the police will be back in full bullet proof vests and more little green ATVs next year. I documented 6 cases with BMorg, but as long as there are people who simply want to bury their heads in the sand and say there is nothing wrong, then nothing will change.
With one on one conversations, the police were all very nice. But put them is group and you have the typical police tough guy authority mentality. They should be embaressed by their behavior, but they are making too much money for the week to think about it.

6 cases makes not 100's

So tell us about your doings with a large group of "typical police tough guy authority mentelity"

I'm not trying to make this go away. I want know what is realy going on.. But with all the lies and tale tails nothing will change..

The truth will force a change..

[steveboy]

Actually, Steveboy, there is ample scientific data to support the arguments about different cannabinoids acting differently, as well as pharmacokinetic differences to support smoked or vaporized cannabis over oral forms for some people. I don't care if you buy the whole war on drugs BS about medical mj, but don't pretend you know what you are taking about.

Luckily I don't have to pretend. You've completely missed my point: someone claimed there are no alternatives. I brought up Marinol. They countered that weed is more effective. The logic chain here is this:

Joe: Item A is the only one of its kind
Fred: Here is something that belongs with Item A
Joe: I don't like it as much

"I didn't steal your horse, and besides, you have a lousy horse" might cover your bases, but it doesn't exactly convince me. No one is saying there isn't a myriad of solutions. I'm saying it's demonstrably not true to make a claim that smoking weed is the only one here.

[willyloafofphora]

Uh who claimed there were no alternatives? I claimed there were no marijuana prescriptions. Then you brought up Marinol then I basically explained that Marinol is bullshit. Are you on drugs? You know those psycs you get from the doctor are far more dangerous than weed.

MARIJUANA GOOD, CORPORATE LOBBYISTS BAD.
MARIJUANA GOOD, CORPORATE LOBBYISTS BAD.
MARIJUANA GOOD, CORPORATE LOBBYISTS BAD.

[steveboy]

Uh who claimed there were no alternatives? I claimed there were no marijuana prescriptions. Then you brought up Marinol then I basically explained that Marinol is bullshit. Are you on drugs? You know those psycs you get from the doctor are far more dangerous than weed.

"Never teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig." Done wasting my time now. Have fun with your trenchant explanations and ad hominem arguments.

[vertigo900]

Vert, I'm again calling bull shit.

Any of these story of bad cops are hear say.. Find some proof and truth before you start spreading more bull shit..

Very few ticket are handed out on the playa.. Those that are are with drugs in hand.. With some poor shmuck crying about losing the game he wanted to play with the law.. He made an informed choice and it was a bad one..

THere are enough fools out there that a law man need not do anything wrong.. If there is one, Where can I find the written complaint.. How any are there? Compared to how many people at BM.. How many law enforcement are on the playa.. ON you I call Bullshit..

I do have proof. This is not third-person heresay. I am a witness to several of the incidents mentioned in previously. And in case you've forgotten, most of them are NOT drug related LEO harassment cases.

How can I define this more clearly for you?

The active keyword here is NON-DRUG RELATED...May I repeat, I said there were cases where NO DRUGS WERE INVOLVED. Such as our campmates friend picking up a wrapper off the ground, putting it in his pocket and getting pounced on by a LEO with "WHAT DID YOU PUT YOUR POCKET?!! SHOW ME WHATS IN YOUR HAND." In case you've never read it, this clearly violates the Fourth Amendment. WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND? SERIOUSLY?

You can keep on drumming your same old tune of how the police are so innocent and absolutely never cross the line in BRC. That's exactly why we absolutely NEVER hear of bad LEO behavior on ePlaya. ON you, Unjon Harley, I call Bullshit! Honestly, I haved enjoyed some of the things you post in other discussions, but if you keep wasting my time with your irrational cops-good, burner-bad gibberish...you're a few postings away from *plonk*

[url=http://eplaya.burningman.com/viewtopic.php?p=406146&highlight=#406146]

The first hit changes you..

What the hell do you think drugs put in controlled doses for.

Your playing in my ballpark now..
Been around drug rehab for over forty years...

Unjon Harley, now that I've answered your question. Please answer this for me...what kinds of federally controlled substances have you consumed to have earned the qualifications to work in drug rehab for 40 years?[/url]

Just to clarify, you're right drugs ARE bad. They have hurt people, families, and communities. I doubt anyone here is oblivious enough to argue that. However, drugs have also helped out a lot of people with physical and mental medical conditions. Unjon Harley, do you agree with this fact? Sure consuming controlled substances is illegal by federal and some states laws. We all know that, too. But just as the people who chose to continue drinking alcohol during the Prohibition days, some adults still resitst government "parenting" laws put into place under the propaganda disguise of protecting the people. And some have decided the medical benefits exceed the risks. Honestly, I don't need to. But that's my decision. I am fine on my own with some good people, good vibes, and good music. I am fine with or without caffeine. Some years I don't even have a beer or cocktail the entire week. But that's me. It's a personal choice to every individual to decide for themselves. However, if I ever choose to break any law. I'm a f'n big boy and will accept the consequences thereof. However, if I am not breaking a law in BRC, if there isn't reasonable cause to search my person and a LEO approaches me for picking up a piece of trash and demands to see whats in my pockets, this act would violate the laws established by our founding fathers to protect the people from the unjust searches by the state. And this is EXACTLY what I saw. Not only that, unless my behavior leads a LEO to think I am a suspected terrorist, I believe many of the observed behaviors of LEOs in BRC are forms of profiling, and may violate the federal guidelines for observing and detaining.

A portion of the Constitutional framework of the Anti-Racial Profiling Ban:
"[T]he Constitution prohibits selective enforcement of the law based on considerations such as race." When v. United States, 517 U.S. 806, 813 (1996). Thus, for example, the decision of federal prosecutors "whether to prosecute may not be based on 'an unjustifiable standard such as race, religion, or other arbitrary classification.'" (4) United States v. Armstrong, 517 U.S. 456, 464 (1996)...

If this is not PROOF enough for you...well...you know what you can do...
Have a nice day!
I AM FINISHED DISCUSSING THIS TOPIC WITH YOU.
Let's just save ourselves a whole lot of time and agree to disagree.
I'm not going to convince you of my point.
And you're not going to convince me my eyes lied.
Maybe we can agree on something in another thread someday, afterall we are both burners.
But it is surely NOT going to happen in this thread! Not today! Not EVER!

[unjonharley]

Vert, Gotta say a few do not 100's make..

Everyone!! at BM has to understand "you are profiled as a wild drunken druged out freak"

If you are of the few that chose to break the law.. It's on you and you alone.. I say" stop your whining" There are not enough of you to force any change.. Citing proabishion is crap..

I for one have joined the campain to bring hemp back..

AS for my personal life and drugs.. I have been morbitly brain and nerve damaged from illegal drugs.. I did miss the LSD eara and have not gotten into any designer stuff..

Sence then I have served the public interest in drug rehabilation.. Pulling injured back from the brink of distruction.. I have held 5 in my arms while they died of illegal drugs.. I worked out in the streets where these people are.. I have been beaten stomped and shot at by dealer trying to get rid of me.. I worked hard to force new laws to help,not punish drug users.. That part has worked some what.. I have had to stop on request of my childeren for my health.. More than likely I have been at war longer than most drug user have been alive..

Now that have retired I love to go to Burning Man..

It gets to me when people cry foul when they make the inviorment..

I may be damaged but that dose not make me stupid. I know what I want to say.. sometimes it wont come out that way..

With that said.. lets start getting peoples head right..

Don't walk into the loins den an fuck with the cat.. The playa is Ferderal/tribal land.. Don't go there and fuck with the man..

Lets start a campain asking for a BRC ranger to wittness any interactions between yourself and the playa law man..

[porterico]

I've emailed the Lawyers for Burners folk and am waiting for a response. I want to volunteer with their team, so I can get a better idea of what actually went on this year law enforcement wise, contribute to the defense of people cited at burning man, and hopefully also help continue the budding discussion about how we go about policing the police legally and helping to uphold the rights of burners while they are on playa. I'm hoping the lawyers for burners folk will answer a few questions for me about policing the police on a more proactive level if I put in some hours in for them. If I hear anything back from the lawyers for burners group I'll pass along the information to this topic thread as I do feel it is relevant to discuss the facts more acurately as they become available.

At some point this discussion will likely shift from discussing the 2008 events and fallout to preparation for the 2009 event. At that point there could be a new thread created on the 2009 side. We can hopefully switch gears and stay abreast with upcoming efforts and maybe even help create some kind of new system to help check some of the illegal behaviour of LE, which many of us feel has been an injustice to our community.

Working with existing systems is also an option, but getting new ideas into old departments of burning man I think in some ways may be like trying to move a mountain. Sometimes I feel it is better to start all over... and just do it yourself. After all that is the real ethic of Burning Man. If people are interested they will participate. If people think policing the police in a more proactive way is a waste of time... they will just laugh or try to detract from the idea in some way.

(long personal rant deleted in favor of "community"...) *drink*

All the best for '08
porterico

[Tristan]

There was a large-scale police action on the playa at dawn sunday morning. They arrested several people, apparently for drugs. LEO guys were in ambush around the big flaming yellow ducky art car where people were dancing., observing people with binoculars, and at one point they did the bust with dogs and many BLM rangers and other LEO (Sheriff etc) (maybe 15 cars and trucks).

I took most photos with a telephoto because they made it clear didn't like photographers taking photos of them in action.

i asked several BRC rangers about what happened, but they all declined to comment. I'm sure some people in the Burning Man organization know the story.

see photos here:

http://flickr.com/photos/loupiote/tags/leo/