ePlaya

by **MikeVDS** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 6:34 pm

^ I don't think we need more organized BS. I don't want to have to wear around some BS bracelet to make it easier for some people to enforce a fairly arbitrary and nearly pointless law. We will be running a bar this year and will obey existing laws, but if laws did not exists I'd be serving to anyone who's been through puberty and isn't overdoing it. Why do I impose those arbitrary boundaries? Because it's my comfort level, and I could care less what other people do.

by **Stagger** » Tue Jan 30, 2007 2:32 pm

I never used to carry an ID with me at Burning Man. Then again I'm so old no one would think of carding me.

But, perhaps you can tell by the name, I do drink there.

So my best friend, HypnoBurn, gave me an ID that I now carry around with me at night. He engraved my name, STAGGER, on a Flask that I keep filled with Johnny Walker. He was even nice enough to engrave instructions on the back to the effect, "Should you find STAGGER face down on the playa, please return him to PolyParadise."

What a great guy!!!

by **Rat Bastard** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:23 pm

Many good things here. Funny ones too. I've seen a couple of threads just like this. All have said the same things... Some experts say don't worry, get happy and don't worry about carding. Others (including the BM tips on what's illegal and what's not) say carding is the only way. While I agree that checking IDs is a pain, especially with barstaff changing throughout the day and the week I fear for the unlucky ones that get popped. However some may get pissed if they got carded 8 times at the same bar . So lets blame the man for keeping us down? LEOs do like power and do like their jobs. They also have a job to do just like we do. So what's the solution?

PETITION BURNING MAN ORGANIZERS TO HAVE A ID CHECK KIOSK AND HAND OUT TAMPER-PROOF WRISTBANDS OR STAMPS. This will end this yearly thread for ever.

Is it that fucking difficult to step into that thing that everyone keeps saying they're from? (The future) Every all ages bar, concert, festival I go to that has mixed ages uses a system like this. In Chicago here we have "Taste of Chicago". 3.6 million fucking people attended last year. They did wristbands. No problems. Easy and cheap and it works.

Now I know that there's a lot of fashionistas that don't want to wear a wristband. Fine, you get to carry your ID in your asscrack you snobby fuck. Now bend over so I can card you! Does this idea make sense to anyone or am I the only one that's out of herbs.

If 100 people write and ask for this, nothing might happen.
If 1000 people write and ask for this, something might happen.
If 10000 people write and ask for this, you bet your ass it will happen.

So open your email and let your voice be heard rather then bickering about shit and doing nothing.

I sent my request to "questions@burningman.com". Anyone else know of a more appropriate addy?

Just a note:
I'm not a virgin. I DO drink. I will serve a little booze this year. And most important to me and my camp mates is that people that come into our camp are "of age" because we have an adult oriented camp with "adult" situations that would never be acceptable for people under 18 or 21 depending on how NV sees nudity, porn, live sex etc.

Rat Bastard

by **Rat Bastard** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:26 pm

Many good things here. Funny ones too. I've seen a couple of threads just like this. All have said the same things... Some experts say don't worry, get happy and don't worry about carding. Others (including the BM tips on what's illegal and what's not) say carding is the only way. While I agree that checking IDs is a pain, especially with barstaff changing throughout the day and the week I fear for the unlucky ones that get popped. However some may get pissed if they got carded 8 times at the same bar . So lets blame the man for keeping us down? LEOs do like power and do like their jobs. They also have a job to do just like we do. So what's the solution?

PETITION BURNING MAN ORGANIZERS TO HAVE A ID CHECK KIOSK AND HAND OUT TAMPER-PROOF WRISTBANDS OR STAMPS. This will end this yearly thread for ever.

Is it that fucking difficult to step into that thing that everyone keeps saying they're from? (The future) Every all ages bar, concert, festival I go to that has mixed ages uses a system like this. In Chicago here we have "Taste of Chicago". 3.6 million fucking people attended last year. They did wristbands. No problems. Easy and cheap and it works.

Now I know that there's a lot of fashionistas that don't want to wear a wristband. Fine, you get to carry your ID in your asscrack you snobby fuck. Now bend over so I can card you! Does this idea make sense to anyone or am I the only one that's out of herbs.

If 100 people write and ask for this, nothing might happen.
If 1000 people write and ask for this, something might happen.
If 10000 people write and ask for this, you bet your ass it will happen.

So open your email and let your voice be heard rather then bickering about shit and doing nothing.

I sent my request to "questions@burningman.com". Anyone else know of a more appropriate addy?

Just a note:
I'm not a virgin. I DO drink. I will serve a little booze this year. And most important to me and my camp mates is that people that come into our camp are "of age" because we have an adult oriented camp with "adult" situations that would never be acceptable for people under 18 or 21 depending on how NV sees nudity, porn, live sex etc.

Rat Bastard

by **The CO** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:40 pm

Asking people to wear wristbands for 7-9 days in an already harsh enviorment is not going to go over well. Wrist irritations, lost bracelets, forgeries... All will be problems. It's a fine idea, I just don't think it will work. I'll just carry my ID thanx.

Note: In the interest of full disclosure, I run events for a living. 3 days is about the max you can reasonably expect folks to put up with bracelets.

by **Rat Bastard** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 10:14 pm

3 days is fine. Then you can get another one. It still makes the jobs of the bar keeps easier. Aside from the obvious fact of less of a chance of bedding down with a 16 year old that "said" they were 21. (Whole other thread there!) If your going to carry your ID with you, how do we know it's not a fake? Photo copies are also not foolproof. It's just as easy to make a fake ID as it is to fake a wristband. (easier I think)

What I will say is this. I am the only one out of three different threads on eplaya and tribe that has actually offered a viable solution. Everything else (no offense) has just been pissing and bitching and people trying to act like lawyers. None of which does anything to solve the problem that obviously many people have concerns about.

I used to work in bars and clubs too. Even as a bartender. Big deal. Doesn't mean shit when your in handcuffs. OR when your really enjoying yourself with your ID in your pocket legally drinking at a cool spot and it gets shut down due to someone elses error.

I'm not trying to be a dick. Did you have another solution other then carrying your ID which I may have to check and figure out how to read it and see that lovely DMV pic of you and see your real name and address etc?

(wow, I just read this and realized I'm coming off kind of rough. Sorry, didn't mean to. However I think there's a point in there somewhere so I'll leave it as is. Cheers and Go Bears)

RB

by **Finnegan** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:26 pm

Can anyone cite any stats as to the number of

1) People cited for underage drinking

2) Entire bars and camps closed down and / or prosecuted

in say, the last forever at BM? Really, just curious, cuz i have no idea.

by **mdmf007** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 10:15 pm

no shittin way I am being tagged with a bracelet for a week. As I see it - its status quo, If I get turned around from a bar because I dont have id, I leave and get it if i really want in. Pretty simple

later all

by **Finnegan** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:58 am

I agree. It rubs me the wrong way, on a number of levels. I've been seeing these threads, and i guess it's nothing new, but Lock your bike! Carry your ID at all times! Gimme a farking break. That is exactly the kind of crap i go to BM to get away from for a week.

by **MrMullen** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:11 am

Unkl knok wrote:I agree. It rubs me the wrong way, on a number of levels. I've been seeing these threads, and i guess it's nothing new, but Lock your bike! Carry your ID at all times! Gimme a farking break. That is exactly the kind of crap i go to BM to get away from for a week.

That's the reality. I don't like it as much as you do and I don't even drink! But there are people out there that steal bikes and local law enforcement does not want underage persons drinking. So, we have to lock our bikes and carry ID and our ticket stubs at the event.

The good news is, we can do while we are naked!

by **Teo del Fuego** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:24 am

Unkl knok wrote:That is exactly the kind of crap i go to BM to get away from for a week.

WORD!

I know its inevitable, but as BM becomes more mainstream it attracts more folks like the ones you're trying to get away from for a week. "Lets have a rule for every freakin thing and make sure everything is idiot proof. "

I often serve booze. I have seen maybe one or two people who looked even remotely underaged, and my disgusting leer and snot-caked shorts kept them far at bay. :twisted:

by **Finnegan** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:53 pm

If we make more rules, does it just encourage the types who like more rules to attend?

I have not once ever locked my bike out there. i have never once carried ID while out there.

Decorate your bike in outlandish ways, and it'll be right where you left it. (can you find it? That's another story) Carry your own drink just in case some bar asks for ID..

radical self reliance, anyone?

I dunno. It just seems like giving in, and i'm not willing to do that yet.

by **Eric** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:18 pm

Unkl knok wrote:If we make more rules, does it just encourage the types who like more rules to attend?

Think of it more as avoiding the obverse: If we don't have rules in a city of 40,000+ people, no one will get to attend because the BLM & the counties it occurs in wouldn't let the Event happen. Period.

Besides, locking your bike & carrying ID aren't rules in any sense of the word. Locking your bike is highly recommended by almost everyone I know, but if you don't want to lock yours, I don't think the Black Rock Rangers will come around & throw you out. Same for carrying ID.

However, it is State law for bars to card. Whether or not they do it is their choice, but that's something that no one at Burning Man has power over. And if someone is found to be serving to minors, the weight of those laws will come down on them. Personally, I would ere on the side of caution, but then I don't serve booze, so what do I know?

As Piss Clear's Publisher once said: it's paradise, but in rural Nevada.

edit: just a little clean up & more clean up.

by **Finnegan** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:01 pm

I understand the argument and the legal ramifications. But there is clearly a line, and I would argue that it is arbitrary.

Is jay-walking a crime in nevada? What if they enforced that (or substitute any other inane law) at BM?

I guess my point is, It is a sad thing to see freedoms disappear.

Frankly, if the BLM or Nevada gets real uppity, I'm fine traveling to middle of nowhere, Mexico.. Or one of any number of nearby reservations, for that matter. BM can go wherever we choose. It is a local economy cash cow, and everyone knows it.

by **MikeVDS** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:42 pm

Besides, locking your bike & carrying ID aren't rules in any sense of the word. Locking your bike is highly recommended by almost everyone I know, but if you don't want to lock yours, I don't think the Black Rock Rangers will come around & throw you out. Same for carrying ID.

Not rules at all. I recommend doing it to people but have never personally done it myself. My brother lost his bike last year (appears to have been a mix-up, and not intentional) so this year I am actually going to take "measures" to prevent accidental loss. If someone is crappy enough to steal a bike, it's worth letting them take mine for the off chance that I get to catch someone doing it, especially with my "measures" knowing it's intentional theft. Ohh that'd be good. :twisted:

by **Eric** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:12 pm

Unkl knok wrote:But there is clearly a line, and I would argue that it is arbitrary.
Is jay-walking a crime in nevada? What if they enforced that (or substitute any other inane law) at BM?

Jay walking is equivalent to serving alcohol to a minor? What planet are you living on? I can't think of a single jurisdiction in the US that would see them as equal laws (or as both being inane).

Is the line arbitrary? Not really. If you look at it, there are three scenarios for the bars:
1)Serving alcohol to a minor intentionally.
2)Serving alcohol to a minor by accident because you weren't checking ID's and one slipped by
3)Not serving alcohol to a minor because you checked everyones' ID.

As I said, the carding issue is for the bars to decide. Personally, I've never been carded but I still carry my ID just in case (and if something happens to me out on the playa). But to pretend it's some sort of arbitrary law because you don't agree with it is ridiculous. Can you really think of any city of 40,000 in the US that allows bars open to every age?

As for moving to Mexico....um.... bye. I would rather face our slightly troublesome legal system for their heavily troubled one.

Buy the way- that freedom you think is disappearing? You never had it. It's just that at one time the Event was small enough that "the authorities" didn't really pay any attention to it. If you look over the history of Burning Man that started changing in, oh, 1990 when the Event was forced off of Baker Beach in SF.

by **MikeVDS** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:29 pm

I think he means the age is arbitrary. Why 21? I've always hated laws that use age since it is arbitrary and very unreliable way of telling maturity, responsibility, and physical development. Unfortunately it's the best objective way we have of doing it currently, which is why I understand the laws.

by **Bay Bridge Sue** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:21 am

I think the 21 thing is heavy handed, myself. Fair? If you're old (and mature) enough to have a drivers license, then you can consume alcohol. It's a responsibility thing. If you're not responsible enough to have a license at 19, then you don't drink at 19. Bleah.

In some places you can drink at 16. Others it's 21. some have no age limits - if you can ask, you can have.

In Nevada it's 21. IF you choose to go to Nevada, you choose to follow their laws and rules. Break those, and you can get into shit. Don't like their laws? Don't go!

You think that's bad - this was in USA today a year anna half ago...

Las Vegas Mayor Oscar Goodman has suggested that those who deface freeways with graffiti should have their thumbs cut off on television...

..."You know, we have a beautiful highway landscaping redevelopment in our downtown. We have desert tortoises and beautiful paintings of flora and fauna. These punks come along and deface it.
"I'm saying maybe you put them on TV and cut off a thumb," the mayor added. "That may be the right thing to do."...

..."I'm dead serious," said Goodman, adding, "Some of these (children) don't learn. You have got to teach them a lesson, and this is coming from a criminal defense lawyer."

What happens in Vegas... stays in Vegas. ANd you think the rules you have to follow in BRC are bad... :roll:

bb

by **gyre** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:11 am

I wore the bracelet that the llc put on me when I got there, all week because I found it much less trouble than carrying around id or ticket stubs.

by **theCryptofishist** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 8:51 am

Unkl knok wrote:I agree. It rubs me the wrong way, on a number of levels. I've been seeing these threads, and i guess it's nothing new, but Lock your bike! Carry your ID at all times! Gimme a farking break. That is exactly the kind of crap i go to BM to get away from for a week.

Personally I go to avoid the laws of gravity and thermodynamics.

by **BAS** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 10:05 am

That Oscar Goodman outta LOVE Saudi Arabia! (Saudi Arabia's, and many of the other countries in that area's, laws are one of the reasons I look for a Citgo when I need to refuel.) Of course, given the current Administration's love of punishment before prevention (or even education), we could wind up cutting off thumbs, hands, and heads before too much longer.... :roll:

B.

by **MikeVDS** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:24 am

In Nevada it's 21. IF you choose to go to Nevada, you choose to follow their laws and rules.

The 21 year ago limit is technically a state law but actually federally imposed. They did it by requiring a 21 year old drinking age for states to get certain funding for their highways.

Don't like their laws? Don't go!

Or you can push to try to have those laws changed since they are our (most of us at least) laws.

by **Finnegan** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:11 pm

About the jaywalking reference: All i was implying is that there are hundreds or thousands of "laws" that the LEO could enforce, if they so chose. I don't know about nevada, but nudity in public is probably one. It is inane. It is stoopid.

What is the concern, exactly? That underage people will *somehow* acquire alcohol? Gosh. Let's just close all the bars down. And then they will just carry it around in plastic bottles. Well, we all will, at that point. We know they aren't going to go driving around at high speeds, right? It seems that it is a parent issue at that point.

Another option is to make the entire event 21+, period. Sorry, all you cool kids, nevada just isn't having it.

I dunno if you remember the year maybe 3 or 4 years ago, but there was a massive LEO presence out there. Why? No reason, really. And you know what? We bitched and complained, and Lo! and behold, the next year, not so much. Why? Because nevada enjoys the incredible revenue influx from the event. Mexico is too scary? How about in the middle of nowhere, oregon? Wave a few million dollars at the reservation, and see if they can come up with a workable plan.

So, are we willing to go along with a disneyfied version of BM, or not? It would be sanitary, and organized, and not at all what I like about the event. Nice, tidy bike racks everywhere, so you can lock your bike, every single farking time you stop somewhere. And nice bracelets that you MUST wear all week..

Why not barcode tattoos? Easy to scan, uber cool looking. Super retro (all the way back to the 40's)

by **SeaShell08** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:19 pm

While I understand your concern, I urge you to consider relying on personal responsibility (of yourself AND the participants of BMan that come to your bar) instead of plastic identities for the following reasons:
1. For me, going to Burning Man is about abandoning everything I know for the possibility of something greater. I temporarily let go of everything...including my "identity." The person I am on-playa is who I am trying to learn to be in the default world-not the other way around. Just having an ID would seriously disrupt this for me as it would carry ties to the default.
2. You don't have a liquor license-you are not selling anything. Because it is not a businesss, it is not subject to busts in the same fashion as bars in the default. It is the legal equivelent of having a bunch of friends over to a backyard BBQ with spiked punch. If your friends are at least 21, but they bring someone that is 18* it does not mean you have to card or even have someone supervising the drinks table. Instead, you simply ask that person (the known minor) to drink something besides the spiked punch. If they still drink the punch instead of the offered alternative without your knowledge, you are not at fault. (Note that I am a Nevada resident, and am well aware of local laws and how they are enforced. In high school, I remember my friends being "the known minor"' I described in the BBQ scenario. In those cases, the teens were generally sentenced to rehab and/or community service with no punishment to the adults. However, they are-for good reason-very harsh on people that knowingly give alcohol to minors. The law draws a VERY large distinction between the teenager knowingly breaking the rules set down by the adults and the adults not setting down/following the rules.)
In the case of Burning Man, anyone under 21 has been asked not to drink by the Survival Guide, parents, knowledge of the law, probably the Greeters, any signs you/others choose to post...etc.
*I used the example of 18 because you must be 18 to buy Burning Man tickets, meaning anyone younger is under the supervision/responsiblility of the person that bought their ticket, and anyone 18 or older is a legal adult and are therefore responsible for their own actions.
3. No one (that I know) carries ID at Burning Man(besides, with all the naked people would u really want it after they found some place to carry it?). Besides, those that are willing to carry an ID around such a magical land ARE the ones to look out for! Those that know they can drink (b/c they are of age to do so anywhere) walk casually up to a bar as if it were any other place....those that have a reason to think they may be turned away (ie underage teens) come prepared with fake IDs and a nervous grin... they're pretty easy to spot.
4. Even if you did choose to card, there is no way you could tell real IDs from fake. Even within the US, there are many forms of ID and ways different states have come up with to fight fake IDs, meaning in each state there are different things they train convienance store clerks to look for-and that's just state to state. With Burning Man, you are talking about ID's from all over the world....there is no way the untrained eye could tell the difference.
5. Number 9 of the Survival Guide (REQUIRED READING) states no underage drinking as a Burning Man rule, so even if you do not have signs on your specific bar, you are still covered as everyone is made aware of the rules (as well as where to reference them in the paperwork you are given) at the gate.

So what DO you do to protect yourself and those drinking from your bar?
1. Make artistic signs for "21 &over please. "(Many bars do not even post signs.)
2. Instead of IDing people, use your best judgement. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between the party-going 18 yr olds that feel special to be able to drink/don't know how to drink responsibly yet and those that are legally allowed to drink and are simply enjoying. If someone seems too young to you, talk to them. You can generally get a pretty good idea of someone's maturity level (better gage to age then looks) by talking to them. Basically, I would avoid giving alcohol to those OBVIOUSLY under age (ie passing out Mojitos in Kidsville to non-adults would probably not be so good :lol:

)
3. Talk to those in your bar. Make sure people have the mental capacity to know when enough is enough. One of the main reasons for the 21 drinking age is so that (theoretically) they will have the ability to make responsible choices (like knowing when enough is enough) by that time. Generally, teens have been so restricted from alcohol that when they see an opportunity to drink they are not just doing it for the loss of inhibitiion, but like an impulsive fish...reach out to anyone that has this quality. Whether a teen binging because they finally got a chance to drink or an alocoholic that can't stop-anyone that "just doesn't seem right" or "maybe you've had enough to drink" offer them some help. If you suspect that it is a teenager that has either come to you drunk or has been in your bar and you now suspect may be younger than you initially thought, stop giving them alcohol and look out for them. If they (or anybody) seems dehydrated or dangerously intoxicated, take them to the medical tent. I guarentee you will not be punished for bringing someone needing medical attention to a Ranger, whether of age or not.
4. Offer non-alcohol alternatives. If there is someone you are uncomfortable serving alcohol, offer them a nice refreshing glass of the juice you're using as a mixer. Perhaps bring a cheap alternative like tang or koolaide for those that wish to drink along with everyone but don't want the alcohol content. (whether they seem too young for alcohol or just simply choose not to drink at that time) This encourages people to be responsible and choose alcohol or not instead of just drinking alcohol b/c it's all there is to drink. One year I remember having to walk away from the bar to find water b/c the bar had alcohol-only , so please keep water in mind when planning to stock a bar.
5. Take care of ALL your patrons. Make sure none of them have had enough alcohol to be dangerous. It's about having a good time, but in order for it to be a good time we must all be well. To acomplish this, offer water to someone who's obviously been drinking more alcohol than is safe for them.,,,basically, treat all your patrons like you would your best friend.
Peace be with you,
SeaShell

by **Finnegan** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:39 pm

Excellent post! Thank you.

by **helitack** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:41 pm

SeaShell08 wrote:2. You don't have a liquor license-you are not selling anything. Because it is not a businesss, it is not subject to busts in the same fashion as bars in the default. It is the legal equivelent of having a bunch of friends over to a backyard BBQ with spiked punch. If your friends are at least 21, but they bring someone that is 18* it does not mean you have to card or even have someone supervising the drinks table. Instead, you simply ask that person (the known minor) to drink something besides the spiked punch. If they still drink the punch instead of the offered alternative without your knowledge, you are not at fault. (Note that I am a Nevada resident, and am well aware of local laws and how they are enforced. In high school, I remember my friends being "the known minor"' I described in the BBQ scenario. In those cases, the teens were generally sentenced to rehab and/or community service with no punishment to the adults. However, they are-for good reason-very harsh on people that knowingly give alcohol to minors. The law draws a VERY large distinction between the teenager knowingly breaking the rules set down by the adults and the adults not setting down/following the rules.)
In the case of Burning Man, anyone under 21 has been asked not to drink by the Survival Guide, parents, knowledge of the law, probably the Greeters, any signs you/others choose to post...etc.
*I used the example of 18 because you must be 18 to buy Burning Man tickets, meaning anyone younger is under the supervision/responsiblility of the person that bought their ticket, and anyone 18 or older is a legal adult and are therefore responsible for their own actions.
SeaShell

This is NOT how the Pershing County Sheriffs office sees the Nevada Revised Statutes.

by **SeaShell08** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 7:51 pm

When I wrote "the law" in regards to the distinction between a teenager finding a way to go behind the adults backs and the adults actively giving them alcohol, I did mis-type...I should have said something more along the lines of "the way the law is enforced" or "those that enforce the law see a diffference..." because you are correct I do not believe that the written law states that distinction in the way I presented it. However, this is the way I have seen it happen time and time again. I am not saying that the police don't do their jobs or anything like that, but instead that they are able to see when the adult is at fault for purposefully serving them alcohol versus the adult being tricked (fake IDs, false statements of age, minors purposefully breaking the rules, minors stealing alcohol...etc)
Peace all, sorry about the confusion.

by **SeaShell08** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 8:07 pm

Sorry I didn't think to put this in my first post. :oops:

Check out the survival guide, because a lot of the things people are worried about are covered there and/or the back of the ticket. For example, I said you must be 18 to buy a ticket, but this years survival guide goes so far as to say will not be admited w/o parent/gardian if under 18. So really, the parents are the responsible party for under 18, and 18 and over assumes personal responsibility by using their ticket. In other words, you are not responsible for another adult's choice to break the law, and anyone not an adult is being supervised by their parent/guardian.

Love
Seashell~

by **waru** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:33 am

First post and will be my first BM this year, coming over from UK, just got tickets and cant wait! Wooh! :)

This thread has me confused though, I thought the only thing you could buy inside BM was coffee and ice??

PEACE
Waru

by **Finnegan** » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:21 am

Hi Waru,

Congratulations! You'll have a fabulous time!

You are right, ice and a few drinks at the center camp are the only things you can use filthy lucre for out there. All the bars mentioned in this thread give their drinks as gifts.

Cheers,
~Fin

ePlaya

Carding @ Burning Man for a New Bar in 2007

Carrying an ID

One more thing...

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